In other trans spaces, I've noticed that most transsexual folks have one of two contrasting opinions on what defines one's gender. The two camps are roughly:

1) Gender as determined by self - a person's gender is whatever they say their gender is, and transition is a means of alleviating the dysphoria that stems from the discordance of one's gender and one's body.

2) Gender as determined by society - a person's gender is based on which sex they are read as most consistently in day-to-day life; transition exists to alleviate sex dysphoria, and relates to gender only to the extent that society mandates it should.

Obviously there are other opinions on gender beyond these two, but these are the most common ones I've encountered.

What do you lot think?

Great question Cassandra.

I think gender is very complicated. It's a combination of:
* Body Sex
* Internal gender signals from the brain
* How people treat you
* How you interact with people
* How you see yourself
* How you present

I actually believe that transition DOES change my gender. (I know, this is likely to prompt a midnight call from the Trans police).

I don't think it's as simple as having a structure in my brain that wants me to be a woman so I'm a woman.

This is one of those interesting things I can never quite answer. We call a spoon a spoon, because society has come up with the name spoon for it. Male and female however is such a shifting fluid concept. It could attach to body, genitalia, identity, self identity, presentation, or a mixture of the above.

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2013, 12:53:03 PM

I actually believe that transition DOES change my gender. (I know, this is likely to prompt a midnight call from the Trans police).

I don't think it's as simple as having a structure in my brain that wants me to be a woman so I'm a woman.

That kinda resonates with me too. I struggled with whether I was right, but at the start if my transition, I didn't think I woke up one morning and decided to be female and therefore was female, it's been more of a process. My gender identity definitely changed quickly, but my gender itself? Not sure. I always preferred the term gender identity because that referred to what I thought. Gender seems like something more scientific and society driven.

Gender is actually defined as being a combination of several different concepts so I've never really understood why people single out and favor one concept over another. Here's my take on it:

Gender is mainly a mental, physical and social concept. To put it loosely: Mentally, gender helps define a person's identity. Physically, gender determines appearance. And socially, gender determines how others interact with you.

When one or more of those concepts clash with another, it causes dysphoria and leads people to seek alleviation from that dysphoria.

For example, many people who are transgender describe their bodies as not matching the gender they are in their minds. This means that the person's mental concept of gender and how it determines their identity is clashing with their physical gender. A person feeling dysphoria from this would probably want to transition so that their mental gender can match their physical gender. Then comes the social concept of gender. If a person's gender roles in society don't match their mental or physical concept of gender, it also causes dysphoria because the person isn't being treated as the correct gender by others. So not only do people transition physically they also transition socially into new gender roles and (as bad as it sounds) stereotypes, that's what passing is all about.

You can't really define gender as being just mental, just physical or just societal.

A agree with all three "It's complicated" posts above.  For me to realize I needed to transition took several aspects.

The first was to reflect on my life and dig up memories I had buried:  Finding my mother's lace and rose wedding hat in the attic, trying it on, imagining being a bride.  Wanting to buy a doll when I was small, only to have my father get inexplicably prickly and angry about the idea.  Thinking I had to be a good *boy* in order to have attention and love (which never really seemed to work).  Sleepless nights crying during puberty because I couldn't have boobs or hips or a vagina.  Cutting myself off from everything feminine because I was afraid that my secret would be out and I would disappoint my family.  Desiring so much to be a part of girls' conversations, hating to have to put on a front and hide emotions to "fit in" (however badly) with the boys.  Being relieved when I found someone I thought was a good match to marry; at last I could prove that I was a "male".  Oh, and having to bury all these experiences and not think about them to avoid drowning in depression about it all.

A number of those things were socially derived.  In a less gender-binary society, I may have been able to flourish to a degree.  At least to a higher degree than I managed otherwise...

But then there are other things, purely physical, like the way I still on some level expect to encounter breasts when I run my hands up my body, or the disappointment I have always felt when I look down and see nothing but flat from my shoulders to my toes... the hatred and distaste I have for all the hair that has sprung up on my body. 

And finally, the mental things, feeling like I have to hide my inner femininity.  I'm old enough now to realize how senseless that was, and how harmful.  Guilt can destroy a soul, given a chance.

So for me, the decision was made when I realized that on three separate levels I *needed* to.  The thought that I could know all of this and not take action was intolerable.  So now I'm transitioning, spending as much time as I can getting in touch with the real me and discarding bits and pieces of my male costume... it kept snagging on things and tripping me up anyway. 

*hug*  Neat topic... thank you.

I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.

Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.

Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.

Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.

I agree.  Gender expression can change, but gender itself, I believe, is internal.

Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
...
Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.

I agree with that statement.  My comments were about the need to *transition*, to alter one's gender as perceived by the world at large.  The reason I needed to transition was that my sense of *self* is harmed by trying to represent a false gender to society, no matter what my biology says.

How I came to understand that gender, though, is a complex mix of self and socially imposed values.

Quote from: Robin Mack on November 19, 2013, 03:40:41 PM
I agree with that statement.  My comments were about the need to *transition*, to alter one's gender as perceived by the world at large.  The reason I needed to transition was that my sense of *self* is harmed by trying to represent a false gender to society, no matter what my biology says.

How I came to understand that gender, though, is a complex mix of self and socially imposed values.

I wouldn't call that changing gender, just changing society's perceptions, sometimes known as a social transition, not a gender transition.

Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 03:43:48 PM
I wouldn't call that changing gender, just changing society's perceptions, sometimes known as a social transition, not a gender transition.

Hence why I pointed out that people transition genders socially too, not just physically. It might be considered a social transition but it's directly affected by gender so it's a gender transition as well, just a different form of it.

I agree that society and physicality don't determine a person's gender. I believe the mental concept of gender identity, which is exactly what you mentioned, is what determines one's gender. But the social and physical constructs do determine what gender others view you as regardless of what your gender identity is.

If gender was only a mental concept not affected by society or physicality people wouldn't feel dysphoria when their mental concept didn't match up with the others.

And I'm a guy, by the way. 

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on November 19, 2013, 03:19:43 PM
I agree.  Gender expression can change, but gender itself, I believe, is internal.

I'm with The OC and others... I have always been female. I realize my gender (all gender) is somewhat fluid as it is hormonally based, and that it will change somewhat (possibly significantly) on HRT... but my gender is made by my brain.

Society is responsible for gender role imposition. As much as my parents like to say they don't believe in gender roles (and brought us up that way), I know I still had lots of cars I never much played with... society imposes gender onto our sex, not our actual gender... which is why we, as transgender, have the problems we do.

Quote from: Contravene on November 19, 2013, 04:01:10 PM

Hence why I pointed out that people transition genders socially too, not just physically. It might be considered a social transition but it's directly affected by gender so it's a gender transition as well, just a different form of it.



Society's perceptions have nothing to do with gender. My gender does NOT change. Gender and society's perceptions of gender are not the same thing.  My ability to survive depends on blood flow, so does breathing. Survival is not Blood flow nor breathing even though both affect survival.

I agree that society and physicality don't determine a person's gender. I believe the mental concept of gender identity, which is exactly what you mentioned, is what determines one's gender. But the social and physical constructs do determine what gender others view you as regardless of what your gender identity is.

Again gender is not society's perceptions.

If gender was only a mental concept not affected by society or physicality people wouldn't feel dysphoria when their mental concept didn't match up with the others.

Dysphoria affected me most because my body doesn't match my body map or internal view. The bit of society's perceptions played a far lesser impact on me. This statement is not true. Before ever meeting other people, My gender is what it is and my dysphoria just as real. People's mental concepts are not a big part of the problem.

I'm okay with people having different definitions of gender.  We should try not to make generalizations or define gender for other people though.  In the spirit of Susan's, that is.

LordKAT, I don't think you're understanding all the points I'm making. No one's saying that gender is determined by society or people's perceptions of you nor are they saying that gender is determined by physicality.

Quote from: Contravene on November 19, 2013, 04:48:04 PM
LordKAT, I don't think you're understanding all the points I'm making. No one's saying that gender is determined by society or people's perceptions of you nor are they saying that gender is determined by physicality.

I'm only reading what was written.

That is a tough question. For myself I was always a little girl as a child. I thought I was a girl until my first grade teached told me I was a boy & that I had to sit on this side of the room with the boys. I was always feminine & felt good being a girl however I was forced to do all the boy things to make me become a man. So I had to try & act male to make my parents/father happy & to fit in with other kids at school.

So I guess society kind of forced me to act & grow up as a male even thought I've always been a nice girl/woman inside.

I'd say gender is both in the brain and placed on us by society. If you break it down, there are the basic two sexes. And going back through history, if you simplify the two sexes, there are the basic roles which have evolved over time but remain essentially consistent. Women give birth and nurse their young, men provide and protect. This propagates the species ad nauseam. Now, for the most part I think that the biological functions of the sexes determines gender overall, both in the brain and in the roles. We're humans and we can overcome these things, but as simple animals we rely on procreation and physical strength to survive, and naturally those two things are divided up between men and women, and are codependent. And this is where gender roles spawn from. As a society, we've evolved from those roles but like every other antiquated notion we've dragged along with us, gender roles have remained and  have unfortunately become synonymous with gender identity and biological sex.

So here in the present, I think that the function of gender identity is to determine which roles are appropriate for us so that 'society doesn't collapse'. I think it acts as an internal compass separate from and redundant to our biological sex, maybe because (as evidenced by us) gender identity doesn't always align with the body. Obviously it's supposed to align, but I don't think it's necessary for it to anymore. Family units are varied now but still functional, and though men can't give birth (technically), woman CAN 'hunt and gather' and provide for the family. And men can still take care of the kids. But even if gender identity isn't biologically necessary anymore, society has lagged behind and still pressures people into the categories of the two sexes. So those with severe body dysmorphia and hatred for their genitals are likely battling the biological component of gender identity while everyone else is battling societal segregation, or of course a mix of the two.

Personally, I feel my internal gender compass does point to female more than male, and that there's a brain-structure issue/chemical or hormonal imbalance/whatever to explain it. But what makes it worse for me is that society doesn't believe that, and so I'm being shoved into the gender roles that society thinks matches my sex but not my gender identity. And of course ask any ignorant bigoted non-trans person and they'll go on and on about chromosomes and genitals, like that matters more than the mind and our sense of who were are. >.<

QuoteI think that the function of gender identity is to determine which roles are appropriate for us

I don't think anyone's identity has a function. It just is. It is who you are, and not directive on how to act.

Quote from: LordKAT on November 19, 2013, 08:43:48 PM
I don't think anyone's identity has a function. It just is. It is who you are, and not directive on how to act.

Metaphysics, philosophy, religion, psychology, and all that fun stuff aside, I think everything (or 'most things' so as not to seem so definite) has a biological basis. And I believe that gender identity may function to identify with those of the same gender (and ideally same sex). After all, we relate to and identify with women despite our biology, do we not? It likely plays a large part in social interactions, and who knows? Maybe it's the biological reason for social segregation of the sexes. Maybe it fosters a sense of community between women and other women, or men and other men. Gender identity isn't just a philosophical or psychological concept floating around in our minds, and it's not strictly societal, so it must have a biological purpose. So that's just my guess as to it's function. But then, I also don't know what the general consensus is on the overall definition of 'gender identity' and what the other aspects of it may be, but I'm sure there are purposes for those as well.

I also want to note, I'm not as cold and clinical as I come off as in these posts. I get like this when I'm trying to convey my thoughts, but my feelings are generally excluded. So how do I feel about gender and gender identity? It sucks, and it's unfair. I feel like transitioning could almost be a spiritual experience and a big middle-finger to the cosmos/mother nature/god(s)/fate/whatever. I feel like at my core I'm this vulnerable little girl trying to find her way out of a cruel trap. Like I'm living this surreal alternate life in someone else's body, and that the life playing out in my head should be the real one. I feel disgusted by men and betrayed by women for playing a tennis match with my emotions every time I'm shoved into the wrong category. I feel like I should have some cosmic vindication for my thoughts and feelings, and that I have to constantly explain, evaluate, and quantify my fate to cope with the reality that there is none. My body is a rental car that I just don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about. I'm just waiting to trade it in for a model that will show the world what kind of a driver I really am.

Both. Neither. It's complicated.

Let's break it down using cis women as an example.

Body: If a "female" body is what makes a woman, then do women who have had double mastectomies cease to be women? No. Who have their hair cut short or shaved completely? No. Who have small hips and broad shoulders? No.

Genitals: If genitals make a woman, then do women who have had full or partial hysterectomies cease to be women? No. Who have had vaginectomies? No.

Hormones: If hormones make a woman, then do women who are menopausal cease to be women? No. Who experience other hormone imbalances? No.

Motherhood: If a the ability to be a mother is what makes a woman, then what about those who are infertile or otherwise cannot get pregnant or carry to term? Still women.

Social role: If social role is what makes a woman, then do those who are breadwinners, work in male-dominated or traditionally "masculine" fields cease to be women? Nope. What about those who are in relationships with other women so that it renders speculations about who is the "man" and the "woman" in the relationship meaningless? Still women!

Clothes: If clothing and presentation makes a woman, then do those who have never worn a dress in their life cease to be women? Those who wear suits and shop in the men's section cease to be women? Those who don't wear makeup? Not a chance!

Relationships: If a woman gets along with men better and has few, if any, female friends, does she cease to be a woman? If she prefers being the pursuer in dating, the top in the bedroom... I think you all know the answer.

I think questions like this are interesting, but ultimately useless and unhelpful. We shouldn't be focusing on what criteria someone might need to meet in order to be allowed to identify and live as a gender, we should be talking about ways to break down those barriers so that more people can get the medical and mental heath care that they need so that they can start living as the person that they feel that they are. Doing this will also help out our nonbinary and other gendered siblings as well, who don't currently have access to the same social infrastructure to call upon that trans* men and women do for the purposes of transitioning and being recognized. Sure, it'll remove some of the shorthand cues and symbols that MtFs and FtMs find so helpful, but those cultural assumptions usually do more harm than good.