So, estrogen. For most, it's seen as this wonderful thing where your mind and body become closer to who you want to be.

Now I'm going to say something that might get me some flak. I'm really afraid that this topic is going to have people suggesting that maybe I'm not trans, or maybe I'm just some fake or something, but I swear to god I'm not.

I'm terrified of estrogen. I almost just don't want it.

I hear all these things about it and they're put in this light of being the most wonderful things ever: "You'll be a whole different person!" "Your moods change!" "Your personality changes" "Your sexual orientation can change!" These all terrify me beyond belief.

Here's where I'm at. I'm probably, 3-4 months on Spiro now, I've transitioned over completely. I go out in public presenting as female, I present as female in private. My clothes are all female clothes and my pronouns are all female. I have a wonderful, gorgeous, loving girlfriend who started dating me when I presented as female. She and I both identify as Lesbian and really just don't want anyone else. I came out back in February and since then things have changed so fast that my old self seems like a completely different person.I'm so different from who I was back then.

This is why estrogen terrifies me. I've fought pretty damn hard to make this mind and body mine. The T-blockers helped immensely to free me from the influence of testosterone, and I feel like I've found who I am. This is me, this is who I am as a person, a woman. I love, love, love my girlfriend to death. So then why would I want to change yet again on estrogen? Why would I want to break free from the dominance of one hormone for that of another? Why the hell would I want to wake up one day and not be as attracted to, turned on by, and madly in love with my girlfriend as I am now? I've seen things saying that that's what estrogen is going to do. It's going to strip me of this identity and orientation that I've worked so hard coming to terms with and fought so hard to build up and create, and it's going to replace it with something that's not me at all. I don't want it to do that. Yes, my body needs some work. Fat distribution, skin smoothing, all that, that's what needs the work, not my mind. Sure, I wouldn't mind some of the changes, I wouldn't necessarily mind being calmer (to an extent) or more clearheaded, but I want to be ME. I want to still have a passion for Magic the Gathering, I want to still love my dog and love disney movies and most of all I want to love my girlfriend. I don't want to find myself attracted to some MAN. The very idea repulses me and the fact that I could be because of estrogen makes me despise it. I want to react to things how I would, say things I would, FEEL things I would. I don't want to become the estrogen. I guess that's my biggest fear. That the estrogen will take over like the testosterone did and envelop my life and make me, me. That it'll take away my girlfriend, the one thing I value the absolute most in all the world, that it'll take away my personality and my mind and leave with with the mind of someone who's slightly like me, yet very not.


This cannot happen. I really just can't have it happen. I don't know how to explain how content I am with where my mind is after 3-4 months on T-blockers. My body? No. Not at all. I hate it with a burning passion. But my mind, my mind is me and I don't want to be anyone or anything but me.

You've gotta be happy with who you are, I figure that's the number one rule. If you're happy without E for now and/or forevermore then great.

I do understand though that the sex hormones, both T and E and responsible for calcium assimilation into the bones. That's why oldies, males and females, are prone to osteoporosis - because they don't have enough T or E respectively. This was explained to me by my then endo years ago when I considered a castration so I would at least not have T in my system when I came off HRT as I was planning to do. He said I'd need to have to have injections for T (or presumably E if I went the other way).

Now that might be all a lot of misremembered and misunderstood hogwash but without meaning to panic you I'd suggest chatting to your doctor about the long term health implications of being on AAs without the E to balance it up. Other than that, I wish you great happiness!

I think you may have misread my post. I'm less worried about the longterm health implications of E as I am the mental ones.

The thing is, I'm not going to be happy without surgery, and I don't want T injections. I'm incredibly dysphoric down there and I really need surgery, which you can't get without having been on estrogen.

But I have gotten feminizing changes. I WANT feminizing changes (honestly I think I'm fairly feminine to begin with). What I DON'T want is to wind up being someone that I don't want to be, losing my love for my girlfriend, losing what makes me me.

In other words, I WANT estrogen, I just CAN'T have it if I'm going to turn into this completely different person.

I guess what I wasn't clear on and what I should say is that I want to know if these are valid concerns or not. How much will I change on estrogen. Is it REALLY the estrogen, or is it a combination of comfort in oneself and lack of a ton of testosterone? Because honestly, a lot of the personality changes I hear people describing when they say they went on estrogen already have already happened to me as I've gotten T out of my system and gotten more comfortable with myself.

I guess what I'm saying is I feel like this personality changes everyone talks about getting on estrogen. I MADE those happened, or I feel like they've already happened to me. I've gotten that relief. What I don't want now is to lose my sexual orientation and personality.

perhaps talking to a therapist about this one would help.

Sorry, yes, I did misread (twice)... and then I deleted my follow up post which you were responding to before you hit post (sorry!)

I believe we stay fundamentally the same person on E, there may be some behavioural shifts, emotional responses, sensory changes and perceptual differences but the core of who we are remains. Some people say it changes them significantly, like their sexual preference... but for many, possibly the majority, that isn't the case (I know it isn't the case for me, my preference for women remains). The thing is, apart from breast growth most changes in the early stages aren't permanent, so if you did start E (very slowly, of course) and didn't like it's effects then you can still talk to your endo about coming off it straight away. Talking with a counsellor and easing into E might be a way to deal with fears.

Anyway, apologies for misunderstanding, all the best! 

Quote from: Ms Grace on November 22, 2013, 09:31:22 PM
Sorry, yes, I did misread (twice)... and then I deleted my follow up post which you were responding to before you hit post (sorry!)

I believe we stay fundamentally the same person on E, there may be some behavioural shifts, emotional responses, sensory changes and perceptual differences but the core of who we are remains. Some people say it changes them significantly, like their sexual preference... but for many, possibly the majority, that isn't the case (I know it isn't the case for me, my preference for women remains). The thing is, apart from breast growth most changes in the early stages aren't permanent, so if you did start E (very slowly, of course) and didn't like it's effects then you can still talk to your endo about coming off it straight away. Talking with a counsellor and easing into E might be a way to deal with fears.

Anyway, apologies for misunderstanding, all the best! 

Thanks. I guess I just believe that those changes are for the most part a matter of psychology and the effects of feeling free and like yourself than I do that they have anything to do with the actual hormones themselves.

Doctors I have spoken to have said that you should not expect those kinds of changes. So I would not worry too much.

Besides as Grace said it is unhealthy not to have one or the other, T or E. You have to choose one of them.

Hey Hon.  I'm sorry to hear that this is such a worry for you.  I'd like to say though... you don't need to worry that E will suddenly make you not be attracted to your girlfriend.  If estrogen automatically caused women to crave man-flesh then there wouldn't be so many lesbians around.  (Not to mention plenty of lesbian-identified trans women.) 

I won't say that people don't experience any mental changes on E, but I don't think it can make fundamental personality changes that we aren't already open to. It won't magically change your sexuality or make you hate sports or love kittens.  The fundamental changes come from living authentically as yourself.  They come from being accepted by friends and by your community.  They come from getting the dysphoria monkey off your back.

It sounds like you've already had some positive changes in your life.  I think you have more in store.  If you are still worried you should talk to your girlfriend about your fears and see what she thinks. It sounds like your main priority is not to screw up your relationship with her. Give her a chance to support you and walk this road with you. 

I really don't believe E changes your personality all that much. What does change your personality over the long run is how differently you are treated after transitioning. Men and women are treated differently and this will change you. And even if you don't look stereotypically female people will treat you different which could leave some people bitter. Yes, you may become slightly more emotional but I actually think I am less emotional. I've always liked men and women the only difference is I don't have the drive, and never have, to hit on people. But now that I changed so much, men hit on me. Hence, how I got a BF. A bad boyfriend (JK) but a boyfriend none the less. So I don't think my orientation has changed at all...just my ability to attract people.

There is nothing to be afraid of. You will not fall out of love. You won't want to jump into some guys arms (though it really is nice, try i.) You can run your hands over his hard muiscled cjhest and snkea yourhand down into his...okay just kiding lol i'm turning myself on! But there is nothing to fear.

In any event, you have to. You can not get surgery without it.

I think E does add emotion into the mix.  The rest of the changes result because I'm ME.  That is huge.  Your already most of the way there on just T-blockers, E shouldn't have the impact on you that it did for me.

Hugs,

Jen.

I've mentioned some of the changes I've felt in other threads, but it's not entirely accurate to say they were because of the E. It's more a combination of the E and reduced T. Without testosterone, and my testosterone-fueled libido clouding my mind and how I perceived myself (in the past, present, and future), I feel like my sense of self is more authentic. So maybe that's the E? Maybe that's lack of T? Or maybe it's because this is really happening and it's more tangible now. My best friend and I talked about it and as she put it, I gained more of a sense of self-worth. On T I wouldn't have cared so much about degrading myself or being slutty. The T sold me out, but without it I feel I should treat myself with more respect. I'm still submissive, I'm still pansexual, none of that has changed. But what has changed is the dynamics of things. I no longer like women the same way I did on T. I like them as much at least, but now I have to figure out my attraction from the lesbian-perspective. And men? I find myself fantasizing about them a bit more, but the attraction hasn't really changed. But again, the dynamic might feel a bit different now, and I might feel more intimidated by them and cautious around them than before. It's all a shift in perception rather than a change. So I wouldn't worry about it so much. What I would definitely worry about though is the long term effects without a primary sex hormone to regulate your system, as others have pointed out. Maybe try out a low-dose?

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 23, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
Though I've also always loved Beauty and the Beast.

Same. Watched it just a few weeks ago lol. And saw it on ice as a kid! Don't be jelly! xD

I did not have the exact same concerns as you, but they were similar enough. I am married to a straight woman, and I have feared that I may switch over to guys due to hormones. This fear was rooted in what I had read in these forums. I was also quite concerned about loss of sex drive due to Spiro.

The loss of sex drive is nowhere near as bad as I feared. You do not miss what you do not obsess over or think about. Besides, it is there when I want it to be which is rather neat. I control it, not the other way around.

So back to liking guys. I don't really think E has as profound an effect on a MTFs mind as the absence of T. As has been said, how the world treats you has a profound effect, and that can encourage new behaviors and discourage old ones. Many MTFs were straight before transition but when they fantasized about being female, they fantasized about being with a man, a straight man. You live as a female and really seem to dig being a lesbian. I do not think you fit the archetype of someone who would switch teams. Almost everybody who does switch teams seems to think the desire was repressed pre transition, and it woke up with HRT. What estrogen does do is adjust the sense of smell in most cases and this can lead to noticing the pheromonal scent in males. I have to imagine that came from the evolutionary need for women to select a good mate. I have never heard a cis lesbian talk about this, but I suspect this is very much a girl thing. So, you may notice men in a different way... but chances are crazy slim that you will just wake up one day, no longer attracted to your gal, and driven into the arms of a muscle man.

This really may be worth discussing with a therapist. Honestly, I have a hunch it is just one of those odd new fears MTFs concoct before they take the plunge into E-ville. I really like a lot of the advice you have been given. A test run is not a bad idea, it is a girl's perogative to change her mind. There is no shame in testing the waters for a few months (stopping time may vary depending on if you want permanent boobs). E is very subtle on the brain. Surprisingly so. Changes are also slow to come. You will feel little to nothing after your first dose. Changes can be charted by looking back a week, a month, a year... not an hour. E is much more gentle than T.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Count me as a third person saying this.

Having neither T nor E in your system leads to a condition called hypogonadism.  I was diagnosed with this eight years ago and it is a most unpleasant experience.  You feel decades older than your actual age, lacking in energy and interest in life and are subject to osteoporosis and metabolic syndrome (leads to diabetes).

With Spiro and eventually SRS you will be producing almost no T.

As a hypogonadic, that's where I am.  I keep a supply of Testosterone Cypionate, Estradiol Valerate and Oestogel.  I've tried to go several weeks without any T, but find myself unable to do much other than eat and sleep without at least a little T.

I would like to point out that healthy women have some testosterone, typically 6-86 ng/dl (men have 300-1100 ng/dl).
   

Quote from: Seras on November 22, 2013, 10:00:28 PM
Besides as Grace said it is unhealthy not to have one or the other, T or E. You have to choose one of them.

Three things come to mind here.

The first is from my therapist, who is a total pro at this and has dealt with many, many transwomen. In her observation, a change in sexual orientation due to hormones is really quite rare. It happens, but should not be expected. Most of her patients who began the process attracted to women stay attracted primarily to women.

The second is from extensive reading. Everybody has both testosterone and estrogen flowing through their bodies. In cis-men, T is higher and dominates. In cis-women, it's the opposite. Taking T-blockers changes the balance of your hormones. Your male hormones are reduced, but your estrogen stays basically the same. This has the byproduct of allowing your own natural E to have greater impact on you in both body and mind, perhaps even becoming dominant.

In other words, get ready for a shocker: You're probably already on E -- namely, your own!

Adding an E supplement will change the balance again, of course. But you can start with a low dose and work your way up. Odds are pretty high that the changes you fear will not happen, and the things you've found satisfying on the T-blockers will actually be amplified.

The third thing is about those potential changes. Whatever they are, you may like them. And if that includes becoming attracted to men, well by definition "attraction" means it's something you like. Lots of transwomen say that their reactions to men change, and they often describe that as a weird but pleasant experience (whether or not it includes sexual attraction, which, as I've said, isn't usually a factor). You can still decide to not do anything about your new reactions, but you might also find yourself in a different place and liking it. That doesn't have to change your current relationship, but relationships evolve as the people evolve, whether they are taking hormones or not. The only thing you can count on is change. And the only thing you can really do with change is roll with it and make decisions accordingly.

Proceed with caution, of course, but always remember, in the words of the good Dr. Seuss, "No one is you-er than you."

Lora

I think your blowing things way out of proportion Taking estrogen is not like doing 100 tabs of lsd. 100 tabs of lsd will definitely affect you. I just been on estrogen a little over a month. I feel more feminine but that's probably because I'm mentally aware that I'm taking estrogen. It seems my fantasy's of men are more enhanced , but I always loved men, I like women too ,but at the moment it's just a personal choice about who I fantasize about
I have neither a boy friend or a girl friend at the moment so I just fantasize
estrogen doesn't zombify your rational thought process.  Plus if your so terrified just choose not to take it

I am also married, have been on HRT for over 4 years and blood tests show E in the high female range and T in the very low female range.  None of that has changed how much I love my wife. On the contrary, I would say I have come to love her more deeply than ever since we both started out on this journey together but no doubt quite differently from before.

While I hate labels, today we could best be described as a very stable lesbian couple and out private joke is that "we share everything" This is not quite true because I am considerably bigger than she is but we definitely have a most remarkable level of complicity and in effect, share a lot.

As an illustration, I am just back from an afternoon's shopping with her in a very big "Brand Center" not far from where we live. Unlike your classical male-female couple we go about this like any female couple, helping each other make choices, going with each other into the changing rooms etc. etc.   We just had a lot of fun and going home in the car afterwards the feelings of warmth and tenderness between us were quite palpable.

All of that to say that while HRT will almost certainly affect your sexual drive, taking you very much into the female end of the spectrum in terms of behaviours, I don't believe for a second that it actually changes your sexual orientation (beyond maybe revealing something that was always there but repressed) and it certainly won't make you a less loving person than you are now. If there is any change in this area, I'm inclined to think that E might just help reveal a gentler, more caring person ie. a more female you.

Hoping  this little testimonial helps dispel some of your fears  I would also like to insist on what others have said, to avoid osteoporosis, your body needs a sex hormone, either T or E.  Given where you are in life T does not look like a very good idea so that doesn't leave you with too many other options...
Hugs
Donna

Stella, there is no rulebook that says you must take estrogen as part of your transition.  Indeed, HRT is a relatively new things in the history of humankind and treating people with gender dysphoria.  They used to just hack off your nuts, slather on some makeup, and toss you in a dress.  Voila! a girl.

The thing about estrogen, even in ultra low doses, is how it acts on your brain more than your body.  On HRT, you get to really understand your femininity and help alleviate your dysphoria.

Good luck to you.

IMO estrogen doesn't change the way you think but it can definitely effect it by the way that you experience things/perceive things/experience's while taking it. to me life without e is like watching a black and white TV through a spy-glass. then with e everything is vivid and lively and I can hear and feel that which is happening around me, it makes me more sensitive and aware of everything around me.

you can get surgery without being on either hormones, there are ways I wont discuss them, they usually cost money however.
now should you go without them entirely? no you shouldn't as it greatly increase your chance of osteoporosis as well as other disease's not to mention pre-mature aging, none of which you wish to go through.
start slow than increase as you can, since you seem very sensitive I'd recommend lowest dosage than half it.