Hi all,

I am just under two years post op by Brassard but I am quite shallow, I have never been able to reach the recommended dot on my largest dilator, and I almost had to get a skin graft going into surgery, thank god I didn't.

Anyways, I have not had a lot of intercourse, as you probably could have guessed by what I just said above. Apparently that helps to some extent. So the other night I stupidly when to some random guy's house for some, er, fun. I am as stealth as possible, we hardly knew each other, and as far as he knew I was cis. Especially around men I make sure my voice and overall appearance is in check.

So things started happening and he started to finger me, but stopped after a short while, which I thought was kind of wierd that he stopped so soon in the first place. Then out of the blue he asked if he could ask me something, and that I had to be honest. So of course I immediately knew what happened and almost had a heart attack. Busted?! Regardless, after a few minutes of super awkward silence he said that he can't really come up with how to ask this mystery question, but that this probably wasn't a good idea and he figured I should go home.

I mean, I do have a slight scar from my trach shave about three years ago, but it seemed like everything was going smoothly until he fingered me a bit. We didn't even have sex. So I'm really confused now because since I've had the surgery I've been poked and proded by all sorts of body parts by straight men who didn't even bat an eye, and the other night I get fingered for 30 seconds and I'm clocked? Wtf?

Were the men before that (who didn't know) just rookies? I didn't think a post op vag is THAT different, especially if done by brassard, who generally has a good rep.

Please help, now I'm paranoid and I do tend to obsess about things like this.  Thanks friends!

Frustratingly, since he didn't ask, you don't know what was going through his mind. It might have been that... it might've been some truly random and bizarre idea (he wondered if you were a virgin, maybe?!).

It seems as though you're fine, since so many other men didn't notice; the odds that ALL of them were so inexperienced don't seem high. Even if he had a sudden suspicion, it might not have been the vagina that did it; I hate to be cynical, but maybe he even tempted you into some fun so he *could* check his ideas, or verify some nasty gossip. Regardless, I'm sorry you had such a humiliating experience, and he acted kinda like a jerk there. No woman is going to enjoy that experience, trans or not!

(Personally, I went to Brassard over a year ago, and was shocked beyond belief to have a gynecologist mistake me for cis after the exam. That was about a year post-op. She did notice scars, but assumed they were episiotomy and hysterectomy scars.)

wow thats udd. i have never had that happen. i guess its possible ?

My goodness Jenna, it hasn't been THAT many men lol but it's interesting you also mention brassard's results. Hence my confusion lol.

Now I might as well wear a chastity belt since I'm too paranoid to put out going forward!

Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 28, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
Hi all,

I am just under two years post op by Brassard but I am quite shallow, I have never been able to reach the recommended dot on my largest dilator, and I almost had to get a skin graft going into surgery, thank god I didn't.

Anyways, I have not had a lot of intercourse, as you probably could have guessed by what I just said above. Apparently that helps to some extent. So the other night I stupidly when to some random guy's house for some, er, fun. I am as stealth as possible, we hardly knew each other, and as far as he knew I was cis. Especially around men I make sure my voice and overall appearance is in check.

So things started happening and he started to finger me, but stopped after a short while, which I thought was kind of wierd that he stopped so soon in the first place. Then out of the blue he asked if he could ask me something, and that I had to be honest. So of course I immediately knew what happened and almost had a heart attack. Busted?! Regardless, after a few minutes of super awkward silence he said that he can't really come up with how to ask this mystery question, but that this probably wasn't a good idea and he figured I should go home.

I mean, I do have a slight scar from my trach shave about three years ago, but it seemed like everything was going smoothly until he fingered me a bit. We didn't even have sex. So I'm really confused now because since I've had the surgery I've been poked and proded by all sorts of body parts by straight men who didn't even bat an eye, and the other night I get fingered for 30 seconds and I'm clocked? Wtf?

Were the men before that (who didn't know) just rookies? I didn't think a post op vag is THAT different, especially if done by brassard, who generally has a good rep.

Please help, now I'm paranoid and I do tend to obesses about things like this.  Thanks friends!

I would be feeling the same way...but that because I seem to take every little coincidence and relate it to me.

In reality I'm sure it has nothing to do with what you (or I would be) are thinking.

I can't imagine what he was thinking...since I have a hard time wondering what many men think (even though I once was one!!) It does remind me of a situation many years ago. I was being intimate with a woman and was trying to penetrate her but was unable too...me being me! blamed it on me being so small....but I did wonder a bit why she was so tight as well. She even had a child so I know she wasn't trans. I just ended up giving up!

I would like to believe he thought you may be a virgin....but I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't want to take advantage of that situation...like most men would want too!

yeah in 2nd thought if he was fingering you and you felt super tight. he might have thought you were a virgin and that it was weird if you were cuz he didnt want to be your first and have you being all clingy like alot of people are (girls) after your first

Whatever the heck his issue was it doesn't sound like he was worth sleeping with anyway.  This may be insensitive of me to say, especially not knowing the full context, but that is how it looks from here.

My apologies. I misunderstood that sentence - but really, even a couple other men not noticing argues for it not being obvious.

And I have known men who didn't want to be with virgins, either b/c they didn't want the pressure to make it perfect or the "clingy" aspect.

Icephoenix he didn't clock you, so get that out of your head.

Quote from: Tristan on November 28, 2013, 08:32:01 PM
yeah in 2nd thought if he was fingering you and you felt super tight. he might have thought you were a virgin and that it was weird if you were cuz he didnt want to be your first and have you being all clingy like alot of people are (girls) after your first

Tristan is probably right, he probably also thought you where just a tight nervous girl. I always remember my first time with a guy, I was nervous and tight but did get easier over time. He didn't want to ask you straight out of you where a virgin.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 28, 2013, 10:17:03 PM
My apologies. I misunderstood that sentence - but really, even a couple other men not noticing argues for it not being obvious.

And I have known men who didn't want to be with virgins, either b/c they didn't want the pressure to make it perfect or the "clingy" aspect.

Jenna Marie is right, lots of guys just don't want a ''clingy virgin'' but a girl with lots of experience.
I now have a husband, but down the years I was always nervous with a guy the first time, thats just my experience.

Look I hate to disillusion you but I've seen results from Brassard, Mcginn, Meltzer, Supporn, Bowers, Bellringer, Thomas - in fact most of the well known surgeons. Yes they are good, and certainly a lot of progress has been made towards a more natural appearance over the years, but they are still far from perfect, and indeed knowing what I do of anatomy I think it is will be some time before complete perfection is attained.

For example the vaginal opening lacks the correct appearance, the vagina is lined with morphed exoskin as opposed to striated smooth muscle and gobet cells, the clitoris is seldom entirely correct, the labia minora are usually not semi erectile as they should be, the skenes and batholin glands are entirely absent, and finally there is no cervix to feel inside.

Now ok I have a lot more anatomical knowledge than most, and many people may not notice, but you don't have to know ALL of that to realise something is different. Some people just will... not all, maybe even not the majority, but some... as you have found out.

Even before my medical training I could personally spot those differences with ease, but then again I knew what I was looking for - and in my case it wouldn't have mattered anyway because I am attracted to people of either sex and - irrespective of how they arrived at their current anatomy.

So bottom line - you may get away with it most of the time, but you are never going to get away with it all of the time. This also is precisely why, although I don't routinely identify as being intersex these days, I do make a point of telling anyone that I am contemplating getting intimate with, that "I was once intersex."

You might think that this would be a risk, but I see it differently. I see it as a refiners fire, my gift of being able to sift out the worthless dross in advance. A gift that few cis people have... with this gift I can avoid unwittingly making love to a scumbag!

I only want to bed someone who will respect me and all that I stand for. The way they react to my disclosure tells me much about whether they are worthy of my intimacy. If they fail my test - I do not want them in my bed, my home, my life, or my body. They are not worthy of me, so far from them rejecting me I REJECT them.

Quote from: Doctorwho? on November 29, 2013, 07:44:27 PM
Look I hate to disillusion you but I've seen results from Brassard, Mcginn, Meltzer, Supporn, Bowers, Bellringer, Thomas - in fact most of the well known surgeons. Yes they are good, and certainly a lot of progress has been made towards a more natural appearance over the years, but they are still far from perfect, and indeed knowing what I do of anatomy I think it is will be some time before complete perfection is attained.

For example the vaginal opening lacks the correct appearance, the vagina is lined with morphed exoskin as opposed to striated smooth muscle and gobet cells, the clitoris is seldom entirely correct, the labia minora are usually not semi erectile as they should be, the skenes and batholin glands are entirely absent, and finally there is no cervix to feel inside.

Now ok I have a lot more anatomical knowledge than most, and many people may not notice, but you don't have to know ALL of that to realise something is different. Some people just will... not all, maybe even not the majority, but some... as you have found out.

Even before my medical training I could personally spot those differences with ease, but then again I knew what I was looking for - and in my case it wouldn't have mattered anyway because I am attracted to people of either sex and - irrespective of how they arrived at their current anatomy.

So bottom line - you may get away with it most of the time, but you are never going to get away with it all of the time. This also is precisely why, although I don't routinely identify as being intersex these days, I do make a point of telling anyone that I am contemplating getting intimate with, that "I was once intersex."

You might think that this would be a risk, but I see it differently. I see it as a refiners fire, my gift of being able to sift out the worthless dross in advance. A gift that few cis people have... with this gift I can avoid unwittingly making love to a scumbag!

I only want to bed someone who will respect me and all that I stand for. The way they react to my disclosure tells me much about whether they are worthy of my intimacy. If they fail my test - I do not want them in my bed, my home, my life, or my body. They are not worthy of me, so far from them rejecting me I REJECT them.

I whole heartedly disagree!! First she never said that he seen her va jay jay, second even if he had I doubt he would of noticed something peculiar.

I am by no means an anatomy expert but in my years of researching about who I am I have not come across too many MTF va jay jays that jump out as "whoa!! what is that" In fact I have seen some cis va jay jays that could be more questionable than MTF ones.

I really believe there is something else going on here...and it has nothing to do with what the op feels it is or what you may also.

yeah covering OB in the hospital  perfect is not a word i would use to describe any bagingo.lol
all things aside i would say relax as 99% of guys dont examine a girls downstairs. they have other things on the mind. your cool girl. no need to worry about the difference from one girls bagingo to another. they all looks different

DoctorWho : I've mentioned before that I was examined by a gyn and some covering doctors in a hospital (the latter was superficial only) and no one twigged to anything. I suppose I have no way to prove I'm not lying, but I was as shocked as anyone. (As for the lack of cervix, a complete hysterectomy can also account for that.) There is a HUGE variation in cis anatomy, enough that even an expert may not be able to say for absolute certain that a given vulva and vagina were surgically created. Suspect, yes, be utterly sure, no. And I really doubt that the average guy on the street can outperform a gynecologist at that.

I do, however, agree that rejecting people who cannot accept all that you are is brilliant advice.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on November 29, 2013, 11:38:25 PM
DoctorWho : I've mentioned before that I was examined by a gyn and some covering doctors in a hospital (the latter was superficial only) and no one twigged to anything. I suppose I have no way to prove I'm not lying, but I was as shocked as anyone. (As for the lack of cervix, a complete hysterectomy can also account for that.) There is a HUGE variation in cis anatomy, enough that even an expert may not be able to say for absolute certain that a given vulva and vagina were surgically created. Suspect, yes, be utterly sure, no. And I really doubt that the average guy on the street can outperform a gynecologist at that.

I do, however, agree that rejecting people who cannot accept all that you are is brilliant advice.

I think you are missing something very fundamental about the doctor patient relationship, and its something that as a current medical student is being hammered into me and my colleagues again and again. Thing is as a decent doctor your focus has to be on meeting your patient's need first and foremost. This means that sometimes we do hold back on things we know if we feel that to come out with them would be damaging to the patient. If it's not important then, anyone any good would not wish to needlessly upset.

We are trained to be respectful, so we would rather "under perform" and have you leave feeling good than "show off" our knowledge and have you leaving upset. A principle that Ironically I am now breaking - but only because you have asked the direct question, and in this context I see the balance of risk and benefit as being in favour of telling the truth as I see it. In a clinic - even if I was asked directly I might perceive the balance the other way. If I did, and I thought that admitting my suspicion would upset her I would almost certainly deny that I had spotted anything, and she would leave feeling happy that I had not "known". This doesn't mean I didn't suspect, It just means I wanted her to feel good.

If I as a doctor spotted a trans woman I would never tell her and I would certainly feign great surprise if she told me. We have even been taught to take this to the point where even if you know that your patient likely does not menstruate, we should ask her about her periods if the clinical situation warrants it... that's just respect, not making hard assumptions on the basis of what you have observed. So you are taught to be careful about what you do and don't say and how you react. Of course I would be, because I would be utterly respectful of her feelings, and wouldn't want her to think that she is abnormal - because it's not abnormal - just different and that is not the same concept. To be different is not wrong. That is what I and indeed ALL of my classmates have been taught and indeed in relation to this very situation, handling any differences in someone who is trans.

To imply Abnormal would imply pathology - something which needs treatment, this is just human difference. A Trans VJ may not not look out of place to casual inspection, but it's basically made from the wrong tissue - it lacks certain bits that even post hysterectomy would be there - for example the glands I mentioned, and there will be incision marks. I'm sorry but we are trained to look for them in whichever body locations we are examining, because its often a very good clue to possible complications. You can't hide from that. That's just a medical fact.

The point about whether he saw it is moot, but irrelevant because I didn't mention the biggest give away of the lot which is that you still have a prostate - it's not removed in gender surgery, and so if you had one before you still will. In fact we use it as part of the suspensory material for the neovagina. I don't need to see your VJ to feel that.

I have done prostate exams - in a normal male we put two gloved fingers inside the rectum - you can clearly palpate the prostate. Through a trans woman's VJ it would be even easier. I don't know if this guy knew his anatomy? Some men do... Like I say you may get away with it some of the time, but not all.

I'm really sorry that this is evidently a disappointment, but like I say while the results are good but they really aren't anatomically identical.

I've though long and hard about what the balance of risk and benefit here is, since the last thread where I decided to back out because it was getting inflamed and unhelpful. I do NOT want to upset anyone and I would love to apply the normal clinical logic of making people feel good here, and pretend that things are different, so that you all leave the thread feeling good. The only reason that, in the context of this forum, I am not doing so is that I am concerned for your safety. As someone who has lived with a closely related condition all my life, I understand the pressures and risks involved. I've been there, and I don't want to be reading about one of you getting injured by a random partner who you got unlucky with and who reacted badly.

In short I'm trying to keep you safe and be a true friend. Now people can shout at me, and tell me all the reasons why I am wrong, and a fool, and I will just fade away and withdraw again with no argument, because I have no wish to force truth on someone who doesn't want to accept it. Winning or losing this discussion it won't change the facts. I just hope none of you ever get to the point of realising I was right, on the point of a fist or a knife.

Please understand - I agree you will probably get away with it the majority of the time - and if you want to take that slight risk and not adopt my precautions, then that is totally your decision. Just be aware that there is a very slight risk involved... that's all I am saying. I'm NOT saying or implying that you VJ looks abnormal Tristan - and I never have - I am just saying that there certainly are small differences that can be found if you are looking for them.

I'm sorry, but it sounds very far fetched that some guy momentarily fingers a girl and instantly determines whether she is cis or not by feeling for the prostate. How often does he do this to girls to become so adept? There are an infinite reasons why a guy would not want to proceed. Occam's razor, anyone?

Quote from: Nicolette on November 30, 2013, 04:56:16 AM
I'm sorry, but it sounds very far fetched that some guy momentarily fingers a girl and instantly determines whether she is cis or not by feeling for the prostate. How often does he do this to girls to become so adept? There are an infinite reasons why a guy would not want to proceed. Occam's razor, anyone?

Dr Who doesn't count since Dr who is a dr. thats like having a male Gyno clock you in that situation. most guys who are not doctors aren't going to know 

Dr. Who : OK, longer version of the story is that that gyno sent a letter to the insurance company stating that I was a cis woman in menopause post-hysterectomy. (New insurance company, who wanted justification for why a 35-year-old woman was on HRT.) Those letters are legally and medically bound to be true and accurate; lying on one would possibly be cause for malpractice, and at the very least get her in deep trouble with the insurance co. So I'm 99% sure she was not lying, particularly as she was shocked when I called back to say she'd have to fix it.

I wasn't talking about stuff she said to me; in fact, because she did NOT say much to me directly, I had no clue she was going to be confused until I saw the letter, and it listed me as having had a hysterectomy and oophorectomy, and certified that there was internal evidence of that surgery! I'd assumed it was all in my  medical records, so I never said anything to her.

Now, it's possible that you do have a preternaturally good ability to clock people's genitals. I certainly wouldn't doubt that, nor that some experts are going to be better at it than others. But I do think it's a point worth making that sometimes people - EVEN the experts - see what they expect to see, and if they're not thinking about trans issues or super-aware of the level of surgical skill now available, they will presume what they see is cis. My GP, for example, admitted outright that he was shocked at how "realistic" things looked. He'd assumed it'd be a very crude approximation. So given the huge variation in cis bodies and the fact that not everyone has studied reassignment surgeries in excruciating detail for years, the flip side has to be that plenty of people will not leap to that conclusion. You've clearly spent a long time and a lot of effort focusing on specifically this issue, so it's no wonder that you're better than most at distinguishing. Probably trans-specific gynecologists would be, too; like any specialist, someone who's up to date on the literature and dedicates their career to thinking about one medical sub-issue will be aware of all sorts of subtleties that escape 99% of non-specialists. Whereas a regular gynecologist who sees 99.99% cis people AND realizes there is a tremendous range of possibilities, is not looking for the zebra that 0.001% of the time that they have a trans patient.

Personally, I have no intention of having additional sexual partners anyway. But I'm inclined to think that people who've had experience with the wide variety of cis genitalia out there are more likely rather than less to assume that what they see falls into that spectrum, and I'd be comfortable gambling on that at this point IF I were inclined not to tell partners about my history (I'm the up-front sort, too).

I'm not offended, I just think you've spent so long focused on this stuff that you already expect the zebras, you know?

That's a fair comment actually. I've lived with it all for so long that my objectivity may very well be a bit skewed. A kind of hyper awareness perhaps.

Personally I think you probably had a combination of having a good cosmetic result and a doctor who, as you admit, probably wasn't looking for that and so didn't see it. - However the original poster did get a reaction and hence was looking for an explanation. The fact that they posted the question suggests to me that they already have a suspicion about the reason that they were spotted ... my point was really that it is possible that this was the case. He may of course have backed out for all sorts of other reasons as someone pointed out. This doesnt detract from my point that it is possible that he joined the dots up so to speak

I will reiterate for anyone listening in, that I didn't say that anyone would always be spotted - just that it is possible... and statistically therefore it will happen some of the time because the differences, however subtle are there. Therefore because the consequences of that event could be serious if someone was really unlucky, and was with someone with a hang up, it is my perception that its usually best to play safe, and not to assume that it is impossible for it to happen to me.

My purpose is merely to point out that where personal safety can be at stake it is usually best to adopt the realistic and precautionary principle and accept that if a thing can go wrong it probably will... (at some point).

Doctor Who : It is possible, yes, and personally I totally agree that it's wise to bear that in mind when it comes to situations where one's life or safety are on the line.

In this particular case, who knows; I was mostly trying to reassure her that those same odds are probably in her favor. She didn't seem worried about her safety, so it's mostly a question of self-esteem - and the thing most likely to get ME clocked was lack of confidence, so it's also useful to point out that there are any number of other explanations. The only times I've heard of where someone was clocked by their genitalia, the person already had suspicions and/or was using the vagina as an excuse to avoid saying something more hurtful like "your voice is awful." So basically once someone *starts* looking for "trans clues" the vagina is likely a potential giveaway, but the average person won't even think of trans as an option most of the time without some other hints.

In other words, I think you and I are generally in agreement.

(btw, I've also had 3 different docs go chasing after my prostate, and no one can find it, vaginally or anally. I know from Brassard that a) it is in there still and b) I guess estrogen can shrink the prostate, and mine is tiny now.)

He's a guy...it could have been anything. Hows about this: He had to take a dump suddenly in the middle of it, was going to ask her to hang on while he used the bathroom, then was too embarrassed and took off. Stranger things have happened.