This is something I considered before coming out (I'm FTM, so it's a bit different, but I didn't know all that T is likely to do). I used to say, if I can't pass, no way. Because I'd always feel like I transitioned to be a woman with no boobs and a butch appearance instead of a man. But since starting T, I've kind of began thinking differently. I can't say for sure if I'd still socially transition, since being "out" while looking female was often embarrassing and stressful. But I imagine I could still wear men's clothes, be on T, and have my surgeries...I dunno. I'd look like a strange woman, for sure, but if it made me more comfortable in my body to have my hormones and surgeries, why shouldn't I go forward? I'd be unhappy knowing I looked female physically, but it would be better than being how I was before.

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 03, 2013, 11:00:59 AM
This is just a guess but I'm thinking that passing may be important to you now but eventually I think being true to yourself will become more important as you get older and you may end up regretting not transitioning just because you might not pass.  Just ask some of the 50+ year old members here.

I also think this is true. I notice that in older people (not just trans people). You reach a certain point where you've earned your money, had your career, got the house, etc...basically all the things that as a younger person you consumed yourself with worry over...and then you think "there's got to be more than this." We actually discussed this in class several times.

as the face ages the lines blur a little more. when your really young or really old the distinction between m and f tends blur some what or so it seems to me. I'm one of the older ones.

A great (and complicated) topic!

I didn't commit to transitioning (or even admit to myself I was trans) until I realized that it was worth it to me to transition even if I couldn't pass, even if it meant losing my family and friends, even if it meant dying alone someday.  More than a little dramatic, I know, but I set the bar very, very high for myself to be *sure*.

Now that I'm in transition, I find that I do worry about being accepted as the woman within.  It's become a bigger and bigger deal as I do get validation and acceptance from the outside world, because it *feels so good.*  Suddenly, social elements entered into the dysphoria arena.  Where before I thought I would be fine working and presenting as male for a couple of years, now the thought of doing so for more than a few more months is depressing.

I would still transition if I couldn't be accepted as a bio female.  I've learned a lot about acceptance from a lot of wonderful friends both here and in my daily life.  I guess it helps that I've always been a gentle, loving person... my friends are my friends not because of fear, intimidation, or status seeking, but because they appreciate me.  I've lost a number, but I've gained a (smaller) number already... and the ones I have kept and gained care about me for *me*, not for some shell.  That, to me, is worth it.  Add to that the fact that I get to be the person I am inside, and it's just no contest.  I am a woman, and I will live as a woman.  And I will have friends and loves even if no one outside of that circle accepts me as a woman.  I may lose my job; I may lose my house and my career... but I am gaining *me*.

*hug*

I am with Alainaluvsu, at least with respect to why passing is important to me and why I am not sure I could have dealt with not passing.   Waiting till I was taken for being female before transitioning wasn't an option for me because of my height.  Not that it never happened, but it was never going to be the norm.   I hope I would have still transitioned if I didn't pass, because the alternative was NOT to just continue living as a guy, but I honestly don't know.

if the chance was 90% i wouldn't pass? heck no. i like nice things and if i couldn't pass i couldn't work meaning no nice things.... so wouldn't be worth it. i would have just joined the navy and went the officer route and had fun

KIa Ora,

Re: Is transitioning always worth it?

How would one know "for sure" if one does not try ? It's all about 'experience'...

The past is gone-The present is continually unfolding into a  future 'unknown' ! (Plus there's still the 10% chance)

Metta Zenda

A large portion of my dysphoria was social. And a long time ago I did grapple with this question... At the time, there weren't many options left. It was either try to fix my life ( and my body ), or take an early exit. For all I knew at the time, I had a 90% chance of not passing... but even with a tiny sliver of a chance of a normal life, I had to try!.

So were I not passing now, or had no real chance of passing in the future, plan B would be looking pretty good. Sorry, that's just how it is. Transition was, and is, a matter of life and not life.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 03, 2013, 07:08:45 AM

It's not about aesthetics, it's about people treating you as something other than a man, or a freak, or as some honorary girl that everybody uses the right pronouns on because they consider your feelings, but in their minds they're like "OK I know that's really a guy so expect *her* to be a man most of the time". It's about being treated as what YOU see fit as respectful towards YOU. At least that's what it's about for me.

Mind if i borrow that for my next facebook status?  My exact feelings when dealing with people socially, especially men.  I got a fairly large dose of this at a christmas/friendsgiving get together.  A good friend of mine(and quite the ladies man) caught me off guard with his ladies man ways.(he wasnt trying to attract me, hes just one of those guys who attract everyone haha).  Anyways he noticed pretty quickly that i noticed him and when i dropped him off, he was quite visibly freaked out i found him attractive(dont think i had any tells but idk, people say i make eyes haha).  He didnt say anything, and really he'd lay his life on the line for me anytime, so i know he didnt mean to upset me.  But, oh man, it was jarriing as hell.  I was pretty sad when i got home.

As far as dealing with myself goes.  The person that i want to pass for is myself.  When i look in the mirror i want to see a girl.  Sometimes i do now when i go all out.  But i still want to feel that way when i take a shower and get changed.  And i wanna pass to myself when im undressed with a significant other(if i ever meet one).  Right now, my clothes and makeup only serve to fool my brain for a limited duration and in a limited way.

If i couldnt transition, i would end it. Period.  I'd rather risk dangerous HRT than not do it.(im talking about with a doctor).   What gives me hope is transitioning and the hopes of improving myself along the way.   Without that hope, there would be a return to the 24 hour pure misery and loneliness.  I'll never go back to hiding in my house, because people didnt treat me the way i prefer, and i couldnt behave like the girl i am. 

I think I'm very lucky in my looks - (which isn't to say they're much, but I think I'll look quite passable).

The major reasons I didn't come OOTC at any earlier point were given to me by my parents when I did come out to them as a teen: you'll never look like a woman, you'll never find love. At any point I might question my gender... those thoughts came back to me.

I finally decided it was necessary in order to extend my life, get rid of the dysphoria I had and didn't acknowledge, and actually be myself for once. A big part of that involved not caring what anybody thought of how I'd look.

Quote from: kabit on December 03, 2013, 01:56:28 PM

I finally decided it was necessary in order to extend my life, get rid of the dysphoria I had and didn't acknowledge, and actually be myself for once. A big part of that involved not caring what anybody thought of how I'd look.

This is what im doing right now.  I still try to be passable, even though really, when everyone around me has known me as a man for so many years its hard.  Doing it for myself though, and not caring, is what saved me from a long nap.  If you can't live with yourself, you'll never be able to live with others, no matter how you look.

I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.   

 

I think this was just very well said, by heather

Yep, I agree with Heather. I reached that point where it was literally do or die and so I am doing.

And the funny thing is that as I become less and less concerned with "passing" I am "passing" more and more. I'm eager to see the reactions to me when I'm past the 4th or 5th facial hair removal session at E3000. I start there in a couple weeks and am very hopeful that this beard shadow is going to be mostly gone by the end. I've been told by friends honestly that the beard shadow is what tips perception male for me and that getting rid of it will likely tip the scales the other way in almost all cases.

But as for transitioning? I had to so I did.

What I tell other people is, because of the losses, because of the risks, because of sheer difficulty it can (not will, but can) represent, that I do not recommend transitioning unless you feel you must. And if you do feel that way? Then do it.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
...
I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.   

Hear hear... what I said, only more succinctly.  Sure, what woman doesn't want to be beautiful?  And how many really *are*?

It reminds me of an interview with Dustin Hoffman before he played "Tootsie".  He wanted to try the concept out, so he had makeup artists make him into a believable woman.  Once finished, he agreed that he looked like a woman, and he said, "Now make me beautiful."  The makeup artists said they could make him look like a convincing woman or they could make him up like a drag queen, but they couldn't make him beautiful.  At that point in the interview, he broke into tears.  He said he went home to his beautiful wife and told her he wanted to go back and talk to so many wonderful, vibrant women he had brushed aside previously because they weren't beautiful.

The point is, for at least some of us, beauty isn't worth dying over.  Never being called "sir" or otherwise being mis-gendered isn't worth dying over, as long as we have transitioned.  Transitioning is a matter of life or death, but being seen as pretty afterward?  Not so much. 

To others, though, it seems quite visible from this forum that the way society accepts them or fails to is a further, and potentially deadly, extension of the dysphoria that so many of us face. 

It's not about being more trans than others, to me it is about confidence in oneself and the ability to tell the world to go hang if it can't deal.  I didn't have that confidence.  That was part of why I stayed in denial until I finally *did*.  I missed out on the chance to halt T before it ravaged my voice so badly or strengthened my bones and muscles.  I wish that hadn't happened... but I fear that if I didn't have the self confidence age, therapy, and hard knocks had bestowed on me I would never have begun to transition.

We each walk a different path, but we share the burden.

*hug*

Quote from: Randi on December 03, 2013, 10:44:53 AM
My dysphoria is all about the body I live in.  I need to be physically female to the extent possible.

I can continue to play the role of a male, but I desperately need to have a female body.   I don't mind being a bald, plain looking woman.  When I get out of the bath and look in the mirror, I need to see a woman.

I totally agree to this. This is what the doctors originally described as being born in the wrong body - it sounds so clichee, but here it is - I know many people are different and for maybe even the majority of transwomen now it is not so much about the body but about the social role and "passing as woman" - I like those things - I want to also be socially accepted as the woman I am - but really, being a woman in body as much as this is possible, this is what I really need...
The reason "passing" is important are two - one is that I dont want to be hurt by others because I am seen as a TS and the other is that I need to "pass" somewhat to myself - my body has to change enough for me to look at myself and see a woman and nothing else - I think thats harder than to have most other people see that.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.   

I really didnt get the sentiment that people were choosy on transitioning in this thread.  I got the sentiment that, not passing, was not an option, and not transitioning was not an option. For some of us, not passing in public, brings on some ->-bleeped-<-ty feelings, esp when people arent treating you in your desired gender role.  If you are female, than you expect to be treated as such.  I'm less worried about not passing simply because i know i can.  And passing to yourself, when you see your own body is just as important.  Once you pass, i assume, it not a thing you think about as much innately accept when you see yourself. Right now, when i see myself, i know its not right and not how it should look.

Quote from: Robin Mack on December 03, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
[...]

It's not about being more trans than others, to me it is about confidence in oneself and the ability to tell the world to go hang if it can't deal.  I didn't have that confidence.  That was part of why I stayed in denial until I finally *did*.  I missed out on the chance to halt T before it ravaged my voice so badly or strengthened my bones and muscles.  I wish that hadn't happened... but I fear that if I didn't have the self confidence age, therapy, and hard knocks had bestowed on me I would never have begun to transition.

We each walk a different path, but we share the burden.

*hug*

It is easy to lament the chances we did not have in life. I couldn't believe any of us (especially us "late bloomers") didn't have those thoughts at some point or another. (I know I still have them).

What always makes me feel better is realizing that, if I had transitioned when I came out as a teen, I wouldn't have the family I have now (despite how much I'm hurting them); I wouldn't have the college degree and work experience I have now (I mean... it was pretty unlikely if I did transition)... I'd be a wholly different person and I can't see how I'd be a better one (though anything's possible).

I even might not be alive now. 20 years ago was a very different time.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on December 03, 2013, 04:36:43 PM
I really didnt get the sentiment that people were choosy on transitioning in this thread.  I got the sentiment that, not passing, was not an option, and not transitioning was not an option. For some of us, not passing in public, brings on some ->-bleeped-<-ty feelings, esp when people arent treating you in your desired gender role.  If you are female, than you expect to be treated as such.  I'm less worried about not passing simply because i know i can.  And passing to yourself, when you see your own body is just as important.  Once you pass, i assume, it not a thing you think about as much innately accept when you see yourself. Right now, when i see myself, i know its not right and not how it should look.

And I agree with this. It is difficult to be oneself, sometimes. Sometimes terribly so... that is the world we live in, unfortunately. If that is your problem... and you have the will to... change that world.

Hmm, I don't know.  On the one hand, I would hate to not pass and it would be terrible fate for me to live if that was to happen.  I don't think I will have this issue in the future, but it is something that bothers me.  On the other hand, I can't pretend to be something I'm not.  Everyday that I keep faking and putting on the "male" charade, is another day that I struggle.  Passing or not, I don't think I could keep that up.  I think those of us with youth on our side take for granted the luxery that we will or can one day pass that it becomes the main goal of our transition.  Nothing wrong with that, as we all do hope to pass and be accepted for who we are.  However, it's important to remember that the purpose of our transition is to be true to who we are.  Those who can do so without worrying about anything else have my total respect.  To be honest, I don't know if I could ever have that courage and cannot really answer this question.  Passing is very important to me, but I don't think my desire to pass can trump my desire to be me. I don't know. All, I can say is that I count my blessings when I consider the things that are in my favor. 

Biggest question of my life.

In my 20's I was very passable & comfortable. I was a very good looking woman with a nice voice, etc.... However with lots of family that always knew me as a male & no real income there seemed no way to actually live full time normal as a woman & finance the SRS, etc.... I tried several times however there were always big roadblocks it seemed.

Now older, mid 50's & hopefully sufficient funds to live any way I want & to handle the SRS expense however I'm sure not the pretty girl I was in my youth. 1/5 way complete with facial electrolysis then I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman. It seems my time has passed however I still have the desire to be one normal person.

So I'm just unsure if it "worth it" however moving forward each day, HRT, electro, etc......