Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 03, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman.

All women are beautiful.

Though I agree that there are some whose looks are so striking that they command attention. Most of those women are young.

However, I've known quite a few through the years. Their looks don't bring them happiness. Not in any way. Some seem to feel pressure to conform to an ideal. Others sense that the people around them are jealous, or they become unapproachable. Still others find the attention frustrating because no one sees them as they really are.

If someone gave me a choice to be very beautiful or a little bit comfortable with myself, I'd choose the comfort with myself every time.

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 03, 2013, 08:05:37 PM
All women are beautiful.

I love your entire sentiment!!

But this quote is not true. All women can be beautiful. It is entirely about who you are inside and being true to your self. All women should strive for that beauty and many could reach it. All that really stands in their way is society and the "feminine ideal" that nobody real can truly reach.

Men have the same problem... only worse. They have more freedoms, but they also have less insight into how they can be wonderful people. Being a strong man has nothing to do with looks or physical strength... but for standing up for oneself and others when those people are maligned.

All women and all men can be both beautiful and strong. Society actively prevents us from finding those qualities.

I'm just trying my best.

Honestly, I can't answer this. I knew that I'd pass before I ever thought about it. That privilege is impossible to filter out of my thought process.

Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 03, 2013, 07:21:07 PM
Now older, mid 50's & hopefully sufficient funds to live any way I want & to handle the SRS expense however I'm sure not the pretty girl I was in my youth. 1/5 way complete with facial electrolysis then I will need a face lift to look nicer/passable however I know I will never become a "beautiful" woman. It seems my time has passed however I still have the desire to be one normal person.
So I'm just unsure if it "worth it" however moving forward each day, HRT, electro, etc......

I'm 59 and can relate to what you're saying.  I'm pre-everything. Just started with a GT but it appears that I could end up on HRT fairly soon if I choose transition. My dysphoria is pretty severe at this point. I've seen mind blowing changes with a lot of girls after 1 year on HRT.  I think I might be passable after awhile.  That would work for me.  There are a LOT of things to consider, being pretty is not one of them for me, I can accept that I'm beyond that stage.  All I want is to be happy. 

Such a difficult thing to answer. What I will say is of the minority of the people that I have met that went through transition and regretted it they almost always were the people that never gave a 100% effort to transition. A glaring example would be the sort of person that felt that boobs and a vagina was all it took to be a woman.......

I was always a woman trying to be a man, I went to the extent of cross dressing every day to look like one. I was quite passable as a guy and fooled many people who thought I was one. But I couldn't fool myself.

So I gave up and began being me. I stopped cross dressing and dressed as a normal female of my age.

It didn't matter if I passed or not. I was being me and no longer pretending to be someone else.

Funnily the people who thought I was a man have had no difficulty in realising I'm a woman.

Sorry heather. I know i didn't mean to come off as if you should not transition if you don't pass. i mean for me if i didn't pass i wouldn't because i admit im shallow and like expensive things like cars but thats not for everyone.

Quote from: Heather on December 03, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
I'm really not getting a lot of posts in this thread basically the general consensus I'm seeing is if you can't pass then you'll just stay a man which is basically saying you have a choice to be a woman or not. I for one don't have a choice and I didn't know how I would turn out but I did know being a male was not an option and neither was suicide.
Passing has to be the biggest load of bs when your saying your passing your basically implying your not really a woman but someone pretending to one. I spent years passing a male and I'm not passing as a woman I am a woman and if anybody doesn't like it they can just deal. I didn't transition to please other people I transitioned to be myself so I'm not passing as anything now I'm just myself. So for me transitioning wasn't an option it was a necessity and was so worth it know matter how I look in the end.   

Passing to "Me" is essential in that we need to not only be able to be comfortable with ourselves, but we also need to be able to go out into the world and function in society. We can say were women all day long, but unless others are able to "See" what we "Feel" the end result won't matter as much. We still have to go out into the world and do the basics just to survive. So it's not so much about pleasing others, but being able to be ourselves while still having a decent quality of life. And to a large degree passing is a major part of having that quality of life. It is what it is. In a perfect world looks wouldn't matter but unfortunately they do to some degree. What's the point of transitioning and being miserable in the end just so we can wear a dress and call ourselves a woman? If passing didn't matter then there would be no need to be on HRT, electrolysis or get any surgeries. One could simply put on women's attire and go about our lives. But because it does matter we do what it takes so that not only are we comfortable with ourselves but so are others.

To me, certainly at this early stage, it has to be my goal to pass in the future. I can't at the moment, but I think with effort and chemicals I can do enough in the end to get there. I will always be large, but there are women who are large.

I just want to get on with my life being who I am. I don't want to be constantly reminded by others of what I was unfortunate to be born as. For that I need to blend in, and for that I need to pass.

It seems pretty ironic to me actually that I've spent a good part of half a century scared to death that people would clock me as a woman from my mannerisms and attitudes, and now here I am worried that people will only ever see me as a 'man in a dress'. What is this all about??

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 01:24:06 AM
Passing to "Me" is essential in that we need to not only be able to be comfortable with ourselves, but we also need to be able to go out into the world and function in society. We can say were women all day long, but unless others are able to "See" what we "Feel" the end result won't matter as much. We still have to go out into the world and do the basics just to survive. So it's not so much about pleasing others, but being able to be ourselves while still having a decent quality of life. And to a large degree passing is a major part of having that quality of life. It is what it is. In a perfect world looks wouldn't matter but unfortunately they do to some degree. What's the point of transitioning and being miserable in the end just so we can wear a dress and call ourselves a woman? If passing didn't matter then there would be no need to be on HRT, electrolysis or get any surgeries. One could simply put on women's attire and go about our lives. But because it does matter we do what it takes so that not only are we comfortable with ourselves but so are others.

Well if your having trouble passing a dress is the last thing you should be wearing. The whole point of my post was basically to call out the ridiculous belief that passing and beauty is everything I may pass but I know plenty of women who don't or will never pass yet they still go out there and live their lives as themselves instead of running back to the safety of their former male lives and they have all my respect. Transitioning is not the easy path in life and if your not willing to accept the risk you may not pass your going to end up ruining your life because that's always a risk. But it wasn't your post that ruffled my feathers up it was the one about not wanting to be an ugly woman that got me fired up and about had me go on a feminist rant. 

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 02:16:55 AM
Well if your having trouble passing a dress is the last thing you should be wearing. The whole point of my post was basically to call out the ridiculous belief that passing and beauty is everything I may pass but I know plenty of women who don't or will never pass yet they still go out there and live their lives as themselves instead of running back to the safety of their former male lives and they have all my respect. Transitioning is not the easy path in life and if your not willing to accept the risk you may not pass your going to end up ruining your life because that's always a risk. But it wasn't your post that ruffled my feathers up it was the one about not wanting to be an ugly woman that got me fired up and about had me go on a feminist rant. 

I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation too. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. It's true that there are many unattractive females, but when it comes to us we can't always get away with the same things a female can. A ugly female will still read as a female, for us the results can read as a ugly man trying to be a woman. That's just reality. Not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 02:35:06 AM
I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. But not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Your right beauty has nothing to do with passing. But the part I don't like about the ugly comment is it's very misogynistic and the thing that really concerns me is if you do say transition just to be a beautiful woman what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

Quote from: Joules on December 04, 2013, 03:04:09 AM
Heather, I'm founding out that I AM an older woman.   

While that isn't as appealing as being a young woman, it's still better than being an old man for me.

I plan on being an older woman too someday it's funny I used to be scared of growing older now that I'm me aging doesn't seem so scary and I look forward to aging as myself.

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 03:21:48 AM
I plan on being an older woman too someday it's funny I used to be scared of growing older now that I'm me aging doesn't seem so scary and I look forward to aging as myself.

This was one of the things my mother tried to use to scare me off (this time around). "You'll age as a woman..." She's obviously not thinking straight. Women age more gracefully than men (and look younger longer). (And yeah... I get what she's doing - projecting).

Thanks for this question. It has helped me decide.

I'll continure HRT & Fin. for life I guess. 3-4 months so far I feel so much better, my body is changing some.

I'm lucky I guess because my electrolysis woman really likes me & sees a nice face & nice woman underneath all my facial hair. She has taken me under her wing to help me become a nice woman. She is my age & size & we have become good friends. I know it will take 2-3 months with weekly visits for electrolysis however I'm in no hurry.

Lucky in a lot of ways I guess: 5'9", small feet, small hands, nice voice, nice nails, little fat for now, 190 pounds, my breasts should grow nicely I hope, all women in my family had large breasts, decent face I guess for a male, nice teeth & smile, hair is thin on top so maybe fin will help over time however I'm told lots of women have to wear wigs.

So life goes on for the better, no doubt.

Good luck other girl friends.   

Quote from: FrancisAnn on December 04, 2013, 06:19:40 AM
Thanks for this question. It has helped me decide.

I'll continure HRT & Fin. for life I guess. 3-4 months so far I feel so much better, my body is changing some.

I'm lucky I guess because my electrolysis woman really likes me & sees a nice face & nice woman underneath all my facial hair. She has taken me under her wing to help me become a nice woman. She is my age & size & we have become good friends. I know it will take 2-3 months with weekly visits for electrolysis however I'm in no hurry.

Lucky in a lot of ways I guess: 5'9", small feet, small hands, nice voice, nice nails, little fat for now, 190 pounds, my breasts should grow nicely I hope, all women in my family had large breasts, decent face I guess for a male, nice teeth & smile, hair is thin on top so maybe fin will help over time however I'm told lots of women have to wear wigs.

So life goes on for the better, no doubt.

Good luck other girl friends.

Knowing you have some luck definitely makes it easier... not to decide, but just to live as who you are inside. We'll see how I feel later, but I do feel lucky in some ways... there's a long way to go yet for me! (just about 3 weeks 'til my endo)

Quote from: kabit on December 04, 2013, 03:24:21 AM
This was one of the things my mother tried to use to scare me off (this time around). "You'll age as a woman..." She's obviously not thinking straight. Women age more gracefully than men

If only so... for me that turned out to be only a half truth, possibly because of bad HT, possibly because this is just as it is because I heard it from others as well. At least between age 20-something and 50-something it seems that transwomen actually do age differently than men or women. Looking younger longer, thats true, but also having some "male aging" elements in the process. So be careful with that thought, I had that too and was dissapointed. (Thought when I transitioned at 23 that I will age like a woman from that day on - now I am finding that my face looks a bit more male-ish than it was with that age in some aspects)

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 12:18:24 AM
For me, this has always been about my body. About how I inhabit it and how I perceive it. Passing was never really the issue to me. I needed a body I'd feel comfortable in, one that I could survive in, one that looked female to my eyes.

Living as a woman was never particularly interesting to me. I do it, because it comes with the body that I have now. But that's just a side effect. Fixing my form was the important part. And if I wasn't able to do that? I don't know how much longer I'd have survived.

I mean that's what most of us transition for, right? Whether it's how you want to be seen by others, or how you want to see yourself, whether it's about the way your skin fits, or the way your life fits... We are searching for a comfortable place to be. A place where it doesn't hurt, a place that feels good, that feels right, or the closest we can manage. Whether transitioning is worth it... it's going to depend on where that place is for you, and how much it's hurting right now.

You are speaking from my soul, there, Sarah! This is putting it down as it was for me as well. It is in my personal view what it meant for me to be that clichee "woman living in a mans body". It is wha tI felt and what I wanted to change, the whole social rest of it was nice and exciting - but it was the second thought. I started transitioning in two ways - I dropped pretending to be a male, which liberated my brain and I started HRT which began liberating my body. People seeing me as female became important only after a while but to be honest that was important then for me as I needed it to affirm myself that my body changes actually exist, that my expression of my personality was beautiful and that I was not crazy in thinking that being just me and getting the body I needed also meant to be a woman in this society ...

Quote
what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

Good question.
As of right now I am not exactly sure how would I feel if I become old and ugly. I hope I will be as happy but in any point in my life I'm not afraid to detransition if somehow I decided it is better and worth it to do that. 

Someone asked me a similar question one time during early transition. "If you would magically transition now but you would be a pretty ugly woman, but a woman with all that makes a woman - would you do it" - the background was indeed that as a transwoman it may be that one comes out not pretty but a bit ugly by social standards - but does that matter - does that change a heartfelt need to have a womans body and just be a woman in every way?  For me it did not, for some it does...

I fear aging, but that has nothing to do with my gender.  Male or female, no one looks forward to getting old.  Well, thats not fully true.  I am looking forward to my 25th birthday, so car insurance premium will go down.  I just don't want to age more than that, lol. We are all going to get older and it's not easy to deal with.  It's part of life.