The addiitive feedback from without and within which tells you that in this world your station is being a man, that was what devastated me.   Passing (do not love the term but whatevs) and all that comes with it, drastically reduced the volume of that feedback for me.  It isn't the only thing by any means (body issues still exist) but yeah it is a biggie for me.

Whether being attractive matters, I mean who doesn't want to look good, but if i didn't that in itself wouldn't actually cause dysphoria for me.

I personally think this worrying about age is pretty dumb. I'm a lot older. The older you get you realize the incredibly short time we have to spend on this planet. Time truly goes by incredibly fast. You just have to make each day count, Plus I never considered Betty White particularly ugly.

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 03, 2013, 09:07:08 PM
I'm 59 and can relate to what you're saying.  I'm pre-everything. Just started with a GT but it appears that I could end up on HRT fairly soon if I choose transition. My dysphoria is pretty severe at this point. I've seen mind blowing changes with a lot of girls after 1 year on HRT.  I think I might be passable after awhile.  That would work for me.  There are a LOT of things to consider, being pretty is not one of them for me, I can accept that I'm beyond that stage.  All I want is to be happy.

Happiness with self is what it is all about.  It is like Sarah7 says here in this topic, being comfortable with yourself.

Like you, FrancisAnn, and some of our other members who are middle-aged, we managed to survive without blowing our brains out along the way.  We found ways to cope.  But coping is not the same as happiness - it is defensive in nature.  For me, it is what's going on inside; less so on the outside.

You want to start living again, as your authentic self.  For the MtF or MtA, one early effect of estrogen therapy that is often seen is euphoria.  It was that way with me.  I hope it is that way with you too.

Quote from: Heather on December 04, 2013, 02:50:45 AM

Quote from: Janae on December 04, 2013, 02:35:06 AM
I don't think anyone here thinks that passing or beauty is "everything", but again those things have their place in the equation. I left out beauty for a reason as it has nothing to do with passing. But not wanting to be ugly woman is understandable and also has it's place in ones decision to transition. It may not matter to you but as you see it does to some. I don't think it's wrong or right to feel that way. After all we can't tell anyone how to feel when it comes to a persons self image.

Your right beauty has nothing to do with passing. But the part I don't like about the ugly comment is it's very misogynistic and the thing that really concerns me is if you do say transition just to be a beautiful woman what happens to you later in life when your looks are gone and your old woman which by today's misogynistic culture is considered ugly? Do you detransition because your not interested in being an older woman?

I think in a way this separates those who are serious about being a woman from those who just want the perks. Not saying young trans women who go on about beauty are necessarily doing this - it's the norm for young women to obsess about beauty. But women are usually considered 'hot' and celebrated from about 16 to 25 (maybe to 40 if they're really lucky). This is such a short period of a woman's life (which a lot of women not considered conventionally attractive don't get to experience at all, even in that short time).

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 02:25:50 PM

Quote from: FA on December 04, 2013, 01:52:29 PM
I think in a way this separates those who are serious about being a woman from those who just want the perks. Not saying young trans women who go on about beauty are necessarily doing this - it's the norm for young women to obsess about beauty. But women are usually considered 'hot' and celebrated from about 16 to 25 (maybe to 40 if they're really lucky). This is such a short period of a woman's life (which a lot of women not considered conventionally attractive don't get to experience at all, even in that short time).

Dude, did you just say I'm ugly? So sad now.

Ha hardly.  Just that women are considered most desirable for a very short window in their lives.

I have much less fear of aging post-transition.  The idea of being an old woman is comforting to me.   I'm not in a rush, but if/when I get there.. idk... it won't be such a bad thing I feel .

Interesting thread both for the poll at the beginning and the comments from different participants. It really is a very personal issue.
For me, as a late transitioner, there were never any dreams about being a pretty or really good looking woman. However I would also  never have transitioned if I could not see the woman myself and if I was not generally perceived as a woman by others. Why? Because for starters I just love feminine physiques, especially faces,  and because for me the social aspect of being a woman is extremely important. I love the way  women interact with each other and just how much more gentle life is when others really perceive you as a woman. I am a very social and sociable person and just couldn't have handled being marginalized.
It was also very much a question of survival. With a reasonably good physical presentation I knew that I could transition without losing everything else that counted in my life from my relationships through to my job. My appearance is good enough today for people to feel no visible discomfort in my presence and, like it or not, in a world where our interactions with others are hugely important, this counts.
Like others, I do fear aging but don't think I fear aging more as a woman than as a man. I guess this is because I'm not trying to seduce anyone and as long as I feel comfortable with myself and can still have a little fun dressing up etc.. I'll survive 
My 2C's Worth
Donna

Those who are interested can find my thoughts on what "being a woman" meant to me and how intimately this was linked to my physique in this post that I did quite a while back:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,139296.msg1126367.html#msg1126367

BTW, my "life story" that text plus just one 40min appointment were enough to convince a psychiatrist that I was suffering from GID and give me the certificate that opened the door to other things         

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 03:04:35 PM
We are going to be the smexy-est old ladies, Jen.

Naturally <3

I really think people put too much effort into this aging business, Absolutely every thing in this universe ages. You can't stop it  Life is so incredibly short as it is just enjoy the ride.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 04, 2013, 03:04:35 PM
We are going to be the smexy-est old ladies, Jen.

Quote from: Jen on December 04, 2013, 03:12:21 PM
Naturally <3

OMG, you two crack me up.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 04, 2013, 09:01:08 AM
I fear aging, but that has nothing to do with my gender.  Male or female, no one looks forward to getting old. 

You're right, aging sucks.  But what's the other option?   Death?   Now which do you fear worse?
For me at age 59, it comes down to transition or death.  Guess which one I picked?

It's my understanding that most people want to look good regardless of age or sex.  This means different things to different people of course, and i personally believe anyone can look good despite their gender/age/disability.  Passing is more individual i think though, and has less to do with how good you look.  Seeing that girl in the mirror is important to me personally, since when i look in a mirror now i see man body and my brain does not like it.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm working on getting younger!

LOL... I got a lot younger when I came OOTC... tomorrow is my 4-month birthday.

In the process of currently considering transitioning, the one thing I hadn't thought much about was passing. It never crossed my mind. As it is now as a girl I admittedly look ok. Some would say beautiful, but if I transitioned to male and didn't look good would it still be worth it? Hmm I would say yes. Because even if I have this random image of myself being a body builder or model, I wouldn't have a problem if I were ugly, or even if I'd be accidentally misgendered (this is coming from the fact I haven't transitioned. So it may change) It wouldn't matter. I would transition for myself and only myself because when and if everyone is gone I would still end up dealing with me. I would wake up and look in the mirror and there I'd be. If others couldn't handle that it'd be a shame, and if things fell completely apart I know in time no matter how long it'd take I would be capable of putting the pieces back together and living life. Because nothing's permenant and that gives me a sense of hope.

Quote from: Sophia Hawke on December 04, 2013, 03:28:11 PM
It's my understanding that most people want to look good regardless of age or sex.  This means different things to different people of course, and i personally believe anyone can look good despite their gender/age/disability.  Passing is more individual i think though, and has less to do with how good you look.  Seeing that girl in the mirror is important to me personally, since when i look in a mirror now i see man body and my brain does not like it.

i totally agree. we should not feel ashamed for wanting to look fabulous and be cute 

For myself I want to be as pretty & nice of a woman as humanly possible. Hopefully after electro is complete then I will have a face lift as any woman my age would have. I like taking care of myself & looking nice & normal.

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 04, 2013, 03:27:57 PM
You're right, aging sucks.  But what's the other option?   Death?   Now which do you fear worse?
For me at age 59, it comes down to transition or death.  Guess which one I picked?

I know there is no way to avoid aging.  That's why I say it's inevitable.  The whole being afraid to be an old woman vs an old man doesn't make sense to me.  Either way, I won't enjoy aging regardless.  Nor does the again process alter how I percieve my gender.  The idea of being old in general frightens me, not simply being an old woman or "man". 

Transitioning really wasn't a choice for me.  It's something I felt I had to do for myself.  And I did make sacrifices and put myself through a lot to get to where I am now.  Yeah, I have a lot further to go, but the fact that I did get this far says something.  If it were simply about appearances, I would have never have taken the step.  As much as I do care about passing and looking pretty, I care more about being me.  It's hard for me to imagine holding off the transition process any further than I did.  I don't know if I would be here either.  I suppose passing is important to me, but it isn't the be all and end all for me.  At the end of the day, I just want to be liberated and live as the real me.  Still, it would be nice to pass and blend.  It's makes things much easier because I have always wanted others to view me as female as well.   I'm not there yet, but I think I will be there in due time.  I suppose the answer is more likely yes that transitioning would be my path regardless.  Still, I can't lie and pretend that passing and being accepted as female isn't important to me either.  It is.  And it's hard for me to place myself in a situation I haven't been in.  I'm younger and believe I have the potential to pass.  My experience may be the same if appeared different, but I can't say with certainty how I'd feel if there was no potential for me to pass.  To say I'd feel one way or the other would be disengenous.  I don't know.   What I do know is that my transition was much more than my appearance, though the appearance aspect was also an important factor for me to go through with this and feel confident about the potential end result. 

I'm not doing a good job answering the question; however, I don't feel a yes or no is sufficient.  I hope I'm explaining it well. 

L2L, the older you get the less you will fear getting old.  Enjoy your youth, then when you finish with it, you'll be ready for the next stage.

Quote from: Joules on December 04, 2013, 08:25:29 PM
I can identify a great deal with JordanBlue.  I turned 60 5 months ago, 3 weeks after I started HRT.  I don't think I was suicidal, I didn't feel that my unrequited transgender condition was killing me.  But it did keep me from living.

Before I came to terms with this, I felt like one of The Walking Dead. The dysphoria was literally eating me up inside.   I haven't started HRT yet, but feel that I will in the very near future.  Just knowing the direction I'm headed in is giving me a little peace right now.  Do I know where I'll end up?  No, I sure don't.  I know it could go as far as srs, but nothing is definite for me right now.  I'm done hiding all this in a locked box in a dark corner.  I did that for 50 years.  Enough is Enough.  I'm quite sure a lot of people will think I'm crazy for talking like I am right now.  I don't care anymore.  It's time for me to take care of me.  Yeah, I'm old.  Get over it.  I don't act my age if that's any consolation.  I figure when my time on earth is up - it's up.  At least I'll go happy.   

In a heartbeat I would. Heck you could even say that's what I'm doing right now as in my area women over 5'7" who aren't small and petite are NOT the norm and here I am at 5'11" with the frame of a Amazon woman but I'm happy that I know I'm actually myself for once and I feel alive. I couldn't say that about myself just over 2 months ago.