If rape was about 'hotness', elderly women in nightgowns would not be raped. Little girls in nightgowns would not be raped. But they are. Basically, no female regardless of her looks or age is safe from rape (neither are many boys). Men are human beings, not wildlife. If a man cannot control himself in the presence of a scantily clad woman, he needs to be locked up.

Further, I don't see a problem with this subject being discussed. The topic itself invites the 'victim blaming' issue. I imagine sexual assault would be a pertinent topic on any support board for women. Trigger warnings are a good idea, but the topic is important and needed for many here.

Thank you.

I feel this whole idea paints an unflattering and inaccurate picture of men too.

Also, last thing I want to say for now, going with FA's thoughts, sexual assault is about power not sex.   Sex is readily available for everybody to get without having to overpower and shatter somebody's world.   So that isn't what it's about, and how scantily clad you dress really has nothing to do with something like this happening to you.

So do you disclose to a partner or not is the question, by the way. Hugs, Devlyn

I feel that disclosure is up to the individual to decide for themselves

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 09, 2013, 08:44:40 PM
So do you disclose to a partner or not is the question, by the way. Hugs, Devlyn

I disclose. It's loud and proud on my OKCupid profile. I've read so many advice tips about how to disclose after one has started dating: be sure you're in a public place that's well lit and has a lot of potential witnesses, be sure your date isn't your transportation, and that they don't know where your car or home is. The consensus seems to be that disclosing after one starts dating can be dangerous.

I also have 2 adult kids who call me "Dad." I'm not about to change that. I'm proud to be the woman who is their father.

But I also disclose to weed out those persons who are not comfortable with trans persons. I'm out, and I'm not about to hide who or what I am. If this has been one of the main reasons that sex has been so unavailable to me, then so be it.

What works for me will not necessarily work for others. The choice to disclose is very much like the choice to come out as gay/bi/ace/queer/etc: it should be done if, when, and how one chooses to do so.

We should respect each other's choices in this regard.

Peace.

<3

Quote from: Jen on December 09, 2013, 08:40:46 PM
sexual assault is about power not sex.

That is exactly what it is about.

Spot on!

Edit:  Post removed.   Sarah7 (below) is right.  I was too lazy to read from my itty-bitty smartphone screen & it's not a topic I shoulda' been lazy about.  My apologies.  I'ma' shut up now & not butt in till I've learned somethin'....and only if I have somethin' halfway intelligent to say. 

on the none rape side of the comment its just that when you dont tell your partner about your past it hurts them because this is often the person you intend to marry or you are married too. its kind of like getting married and not telling your spouse your transsexual and may have the desire or need to transition one day and then you just spring it on them 10 years into the relationship. we all want to erase things from our past but we cant. the things we share with our partners should only bring us closer together. i was so scared to tell my fiancé about my less than perfect past but in the end it actually brought us closer together. but i know disclosure is not for everyone . just know when they find out on their own and not from you it will hurt their feelings and make them less likely to trust you.
and it really sucks too when you do that to people because then you start to feel bad too.

Good discussion. This topic does come up often but I am surprised at the new responders and the lack of conflict. There has been some conflict but it has been worse in previous threads.

Ok, I agree that it is not an obligation. Not at all. Would I disclose? I want to think I would. Do I disclose? Well, sort of. I told my wife well before transition started. Until I did, she thought I was cis. Clearly I could not transition and live with her without her noticing.

I also told a previous potential life partner and that disclosure ended our relationship leaving emotional scars that have faded all too slowly. Personal harm is not the only fear. There is also the risk of heartbreak

That said, most pre-transition trans-folk who are in relationships would not be faced with such a question. If a trans-male presents as a cis-male this is almost a non-issue in the eyes of society. There would be no expected obligatory disclosures.

So pre transition, it is not required. It is fairly obvious during transition (especially pre OP) depending on well, being clothed or not, and presentability.

So... when this question comes up, it seems to be primarily a post OP issue. That or a pre-OP issue if someone passes very well. In either case, there is no obligation.

There are a couple reasons why I encourage people to disclose this information. These have been touched upon already so I hope to find some new nuances to add to the discussion.

First, it potentially opens up your ENTIRE life to talk about your being trans with your partner. Failure to disclose being trans limits the stories you can tell... assuming they are fine with it. Sure many of us wish we were cis women but we aren't. I would find it odd if my partner avoided talking about the first 18, 28, 35 years of their life and I would worry about the intelligence of my partner if they did not share those feelings.

Second, as a lesbian and a former straight male, I can sympathize with the potential betrayal one might feel if they were never told, or told after intimacy, kissing, touching... etc. I would have never resorted to violence if the rug had been pulled out from under me, but it really could have messed me up... and I have always been TRANS. Sure, with age my sexual preferences have opened and matured like a fine wine, but there was a time when I saw things in black and white, and back then, penises were entirely gross, I only was attracted to cis women, even post OP was off limits to my sexual desires. These things did not interest me. They did not turn me on. I had no problem with others being into men and trans folk, and I enjoyed platonic friendships with men and trans folk... but sexual attraction is sexual attraction, and part of attraction is physical, especially when young and male. I just don't find it fair, if you are looking for something long term and intimate. The earlier, the better.

Now, I know this is not a simple issue and there are legitimate reasons to stay stealth in some situations. In generalized terms, it is usually a bad thing for the relationship. It is a huge elephant in the closet, and in this day and age, with social media finding newer and newer ways to bring one's past back to haunt them, it is becoming harder and harder for people to avoid their former life entirely. If you are in a relationship with a good person, they still may feel betrayed or find their attraction to you reduces greatly, they may even be grossed out. If you are with a bad person... well...

The chances of a potential person just going, "Oh, OK, cool." after you failed to tell them for a length of time are not that great, no matter how much we wish they were. And, the longer the relation lasts, the greater the chances they will find out. The later they learn, the greater the risk of betrayal.

This really is one of those YMMV things, but I thought I would finally chime in on one of these threads.

Quote from: Tori on December 10, 2013, 12:49:02 AM
Good discussion. This topic does come up often but I am surprised at the new responders and the lack of conflict. There has been some conflict but it has been worse in previous threads.

Ok, I agree that it is not an obligation. Not at all. Would I disclose? I want to think I would. Do I disclose? Well, sort of. I told my wife well before transition started. Until I did, she thought I was cis. Clearly I could not transition and live with her without her noticing.

I also told a previous potential life partner and that disclosure ended our relationship leaving emotional scars that have faded all too slowly. Personal harm is not the only fear. There is also the risk of heartbreak

That said, most pre-transition trans-folk who are in relationships would not be faced with such a question. If a trans-male presents as a cis-male this is almost a non-issue in the eyes of society. There would be no expected obligatory disclosures.

So pre transition, it is not required. It is fairly obvious during transition (especially pre OP) depending on well, being clothed or not, and presentability.

So... when this question comes up, it seems to be primarily a post OP issue. That or a pre-OP issue if someone passes very well. In either case, there is no obligation.

There are a couple reasons why I encourage people to disclose this information. These have been touched upon already so I hope to find some new nuances to add to the discussion.

First, it potentially opens up your ENTIRE life to talk about your being trans with your partner. Failure to disclose being trans limits the stories you can tell... assuming they are fine with it. Sure many of us wish we were cis women but we aren't. I would find it odd if my partner avoided talking about the first 18, 28, 35 years of their life and I would worry about the intelligence of my partner if they did not share those feelings.

Second, as a lesbian and a former straight male, I can sympathize with the potential betrayal one might feel if they were never told, or told after intimacy, kissing, touching... etc. I would have never resorted to violence if the rug had been pulled out from under me, but it really could have messed me up... and I have always been TRANS. Sure, with age my sexual preferences have opened and matured like a fine wine, but there was a time when I saw things in black and white, and back then, penises were entirely gross, I only was attracted to cis women, even post OP was off limits to my sexual desires. These things did not interest me. They did not turn me on. I had no problem with others being into men and trans folk, and I enjoyed platonic friendships with men and trans folk... but sexual attraction is sexual attraction, and part of attraction is physical, especially when young and male. I just don't find it fair, if you are looking for something long term and intimate. The earlier, the better.

Now, I know this is not a simple issue and there are legitimate reasons to stay stealth in some situations. In generalized terms, it is usually a bad thing for the relationship. It is a huge elephant in the closet, and in this day and age, with social media finding newer and newer ways to bring one's past back to haunt them, it is becoming harder and harder for people to avoid their former life entirely. If you are in a relationship with a good person, they still may feel betrayed or find their attraction to you reduces greatly, they may even be grossed out. If you are with a bad person... well...

The chances of a potential person just going, "Oh, OK, cool." after you failed to tell them for a length of time are not that great, no matter how much we wish they were. And, the longer the relation lasts, the greater the chances they will find out. The later they learn, the greater the risk of betrayal.

This really is one of those YMMV things, but I thought I would finally chime in on one of these threads.

Tori you said it, i know when i told my fella he was surprised. but it was a good way to start the conversation on my past and his too. in the end he was fine with that but not so much with the bigger issues 

Quote from: Valerie on December 09, 2013, 10:23:40 PM
Edit:  Post removed.   Sarah7 (below) is right.  I was too lazy to read from my itty-bitty smartphone screen & it's not a topic I shoulda' been lazy about.  My apologies.  I'ma' shut up now & not butt in till I've learned somethin'....and only if I have somethin' halfway intelligent to say.

Do not let one person's opinion drag you down. One person took issue with your posting. They said nothing of your point, they just invalidated it because you had not read the entire thread, which is a fallacious argument. You don't need to read this thread to tell us your cis perspective on the question.

You clearly stated you had not read the entire thread and were commenting from your current perspective. You never said your opinion was set in stone nor did you say you never intended to read the entire thread.

I read the whole thread, it took 15-20 minutes. Not everybody has that much time. You were honest.

No doubt, others have commented without reading this entire thread. If memory serves, some admitted it but, perhaps since they are trans, they got a pass...

It can be easy for us to take advantage of this forum. All we have to do is act offended and the "Support nature" of this website can kick in. This is a good thing as many trans folk are prone to depression and have varied triggers. Yet, it can lead to confusion when someone just takes offense when a differing opinion is offered... it can sometimes feel like navigating a mine field. "Did I trigger them, or do they just disagree?"

But I digress...

Hugs,
Tori

Im pretty sure I d let them know...

I wouldnt want to be with someone who dislikes lgbt people anyways...

Quote from: FalsePrincess on December 10, 2013, 04:16:55 PM
Im pretty sure I d let them know...

I wouldnt want to be with someone who dislikes lgbt people anyways...

I am pretty sure I see your point, but could you clarify?

Just because someone does not want to be in an intimate relation with a trans person does not mean they dislike LBGT people.

I like donkeys. I don't want an intimate relationship with one.

I hate tomatoes, but I respect many a tomato lover.

If someone is not physically attracted to trans people it does not mean they dislike them. You may miss out on some wonderful potential friendships if you fail to realize this. Many trans folk are already short on friends simply because we can put ourselves into social sequestration.

I have a few questions for those of you who don't disclose.  Do you feel comfortable with keeping this from a serious partner?  I think the word obligated is a bit strong, but do you feel like it's something you can keep from a  serious partner and maintain a healthy relationship?  Again, I respect the feelings of everyone here as it is a personal issue and we all have the right to disclose or not.  Nonetheless, I wonder how a healthy relationship can develop when you feel the need to hide something from your partner.  I've never been in a serious relationship before, but I imagine I'd like my partner to be willing to be open about anything and everything.   Still, I acknowledge that I haven't been in these shoes yet and will probably struggle myself with the disclosure dilemma when the time comes.  And for all I know there could be successful relationships built on trust without disclosure.  So, I admit that I'm a bit ignorant on this topic which is why I ask.  To be honest, I wish I didn't feel a "personal obligation" to tell because I fear I'll never find someone if do disclose. 

P.S.  Please don't take my questions as offensive or judgemental.  I respect both sides of this.  I'm just curious about your perspective and would like hear your experience.

Quote from: Tori on December 10, 2013, 04:35:15 PM
I am pretty sure I see your point, but could you clarify?

Just because someone does not want to be in an intimate relation with a trans person does not mean they dislike LBGT people.

I like donkeys. I don't want an intimate relationship with one.

I hate tomatoes, but I respect many a tomato lover.

If someone is not physically attracted to trans people it does not mean they dislike them. You may miss out on some wonderful potential friendships if you fail to realize this. Many trans folk are already short on friends simply because we can put ourselves into social sequestration.

Hhhhmm yeah I guess you are right , still though, why would I want to be with someone who would leave me when he/she finds out im trans?
In the end its about love isnt it?
Even if someone hates the lgbt for example wouldnt he try to understand and reconsider if he loved you ?

Im still early in transitioning so all this is hypothesis , I dont if Ill actually be like this...

But id rather have no friends than be with people who would suddently hate me when they find out about my past...
If they like me as a friend then its ok , I was talking about the potential hate though and not the "lets just be friends thing"

kinda,,,i guess...

Do not confuse attraction and intimacy with love.

I love my Dad. I am not attracted to him.

Imagine not wanting to be around a cis lesbian because she is not attracted to men. Is that not the same type of thing as not wanting to associate with a man who is not attracted to trans people?

I have countless gay friends, and I have even had the opportunity to be intimate with a few of them, alas, I am not physically attracted to men. Yet, they are still friends. I do not hate them. It does not make me a bad person. Wouldn't it be worse if I led them on?

Edit: Either I missed the last lines of your post or you made a stealth edit. Either way, it seems we agree.

Stealth edit lol
I m not a ninja so I didnt do that 

Anyway yeah we agree, and that kinda of thing once happened to me with a friend , I told him i like him and he said that he is not into that so lets just stay friends,,,Im ok with that , but Im not ok with someone hating on me etc
thats why Id let my partner know that Im trans, to make sure that he wouldnt hate me ...and not for his sake but for mine...

In the former topic I got a lil hurt, and irritated. however I feel I can post something of worth after reading all the replies multiple times over. This is my opinion and from my observations this truthfully is what I believe. First I feel the word obligation is a bit ominous being it has a tone to it that says "hey if you don't do this, your wrong!!" to it.  I believe that disclosure isn't for everyone, and there isn't nothing wrong with that, some people sure it is while others it isn't whether they wish to talk about or not no-one should have to feel that their opinion or what they believe in be put to the test or made to feel that their opinion is misguided or wrong. We as individuals who had to fight for what we feel and believe in should understand this most of all and if not than the ones throwing the one-sided views are no better than those who oppose anything we believe.   
1st It is totally dependent person to person. I for one feel disclosure is not for me. I had a very traumatic past that started at 4 years of age filled with bad experiences, I didn't have jr-high, or high school as I never went. Nor did I have friends that I spoke with or hung out in those times, after the age of 9 if I wasn't being moved town to town I was being moved hospital to hospital. when I reached 19 I started building something but at 21 I ran away and restarted as my self fulltime female so most of my life up to date has been on the female side of the boarder. I tried having a couple ts/tg/gay friend but it never worked out for me for one reason or another.
in total honesty I have maybe 5-6 friends who know I am tg. and they don't see me any other way than female- so no disclosure isn't for everyone.
2nd its not as bad or as big of a deal as everyone feels, I have talked to a few people I know about keeping traumatic secrets from their significant other and they all feel if its not causing an immediate issue than no it doesn't matter and they wouldn't bring it up.
3rd I am fortunate I have a bf that is kind and doesn't mind me not disclosing everything as he knows it is something that deeply bothers me , the children thing has been brought up and even if I were cis I wouldn't be able to carry if I wanted due to health issues, so he brought up adoption as an option.
Being trans has not been a good experience for me. In my past pre-transition it brought me nothing but confusion, pain, and a lot of bad experiences. I know some embrace it and live in the experience I applaud those and am happy for them but this isn't me, I wish I hadn't been born with this problem. That being said it has taught me a lot that I am thankful for but even those things don't change the opinion that if god came down and offered me to be reborn anew and correct that I would almost certainly take up the offer.
These are just my feelings and opinions, if you feel like disclosure is something you want to do for various reasons than good for you, if not terrific, its whatever as long as your happy and comfortable with your life. In the end the only obligation one has is to themselves and to what they believe is right which only applies to them and them alone.

I'm thinking it boils down to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If you would be OK with finding out accidentally years down the road that your partner is transgender and felt you had no need to know, then don't disclose.

If you would be upset finding out years down the road that your partner is transgender, disclose.

My personal feelings are that I'm not the one who gets to decide for someone else what they're comfortable with.

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:30:34 PM
In the former topic I got a lil hurt, and irritated. however I feel I can post something of worth after reading all the replies multiple times over. This is my opinion and from my observations this truthfully is what I believe. First I feel the word obligation is a bit ominous being it has a tone to it that says "hey if you don't do this, your wrong!!" to it.  I believe that disclosure isn't for everyone, and there isn't nothing wrong with that, some people sure it is while others it isn't whether they wish to talk about or not no-one should have to feel that their opinion or what they believe in be put to the test or made to feel that their opinion is misguided or wrong. We as individuals who had to fight for what we feel and believe in should understand this most of all and if not than the ones throwing the one-sided views are no better than those who oppose anything we believe.   
1st It is totally dependent person to person. I for one feel disclosure is not for me. I had a very traumatic past that started at 4 years of age filled with bad experiences, I didn't have jr-high, or high school as I never went. Nor did I have friends that I spoke with or hung out in those times, after the age of 9 if I wasn't being moved town to town I was being moved hospital to hospital. when I reached 19 I started building something but at 21 I ran away and restarted as my self fulltime female so most of my life up to date has been on the female side of the boarder. I tried having a couple ts/tg/gay friend but it never worked out for me for one reason or another.
in total honesty I have maybe 5-6 friends who know I am tg. and they don't see me any other way than female- so no disclosure isn't for everyone.
2nd its not as bad or as big of a deal as everyone feels, I have talked to a few people I know about keeping traumatic secrets from their significant other and they all feel if its not causing an immediate issue than no it doesn't matter and they wouldn't bring it up.
3rd I am fortunate I have a bf that is kind and doesn't mind me not disclosing everything as he knows it is something that deeply bothers me , the children thing has been brought up and even if I were cis I wouldn't be able to carry if I wanted due to health issues, so he brought up adoption as an option.
Being trans has not been a good experience for me. In my past pre-transition it brought me nothing but confusion, pain, and a lot of bad experiences. I know some embrace it and live in the experience I applaud those and am happy for them but this isn't me, I wish I hadn't been born with this problem. That being said it has taught me a lot that I am thankful for but even those things don't change the opinion that if god came down and offered me to be reborn anew and correct that I would almost certainly take up the offer.
These are just my feelings and opinions, if you feel like disclosure is something you want to do for various reasons than good for you, if not terrific, its whatever as long as your happy and comfortable with your life. In the end the only obligation one has is to themselves and to what they believe is right which only applies to them and them alone.

Thank you very much for sharing. I can very much relate to how you feel about being trans.  To this day, I still struggle with the fact I was born this way.  And I do hope to live in stealth in the future without telling anyone that doesn't need to know.  The one thing that I suffer with is whether or not I should tell someone I date.  It's not a matter of being "out" and letting others know about my past, but I feel wrong about not telling someone.  Yet, I don't want someone to know about my past because I really would like to leave the trans thing behind one day and just live a normal life like any other girl.  So, I'm very much conflicted all because of this "personal obligation" that I give myself.  I appreciate your answer and it gives me something to think about.  And your right that it is a decision we must all make for ourselves.  I'm glad it's been working for you.