Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 04:47:23 PM
I have a few questions for those of you who don't disclose.  Do you feel comfortable with keeping this from a serious partner?  I think the word obligated is a bit strong, but do you feel like it's something you can keep from a  serious partner and maintain a healthy relationship?  Again, I respect the feelings of everyone here as it is a personal issue and we all have the right to disclose or not.  Nonetheless, I wonder how a healthy relationship can develop when you feel the need to hide something from your partner.  .   

LTL I will answer your question but please allow me to be a lil bit vague because of certain issues I have. Yes I am comfortable with keeping my past and that I am trans away from my Bf, why? because before I was fulltime female I had nothing other than trauma, and bad experiences..  sure maybe there was a few good moments but not any that are worth bring up and if I did they could be seen as a girl just growing up.
the other reason is if I brought it up and it was out it would then be an unhealthy relationship because of 2 primary reasons 1. it would unlock a lot of doors that make me start having issues that I took a long time to get under control. 2. I would feel that he would see me differently even if he didn't admit to it, this again is part of the 1st reason

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 04:47:23 PMAnd for all I know there could be successful relationships built on trust without disclosure

This is true there are, in my relationship he actually knows there is something I don't want to talk about.... ever, and he understand that it is because it would hurt me to much to discuss or bring it up so he understands and respects that board and says its not important because it isn't worth know if it brings me pain and issues. if it doesn't effect the relationship it isn't important to worry about.
and after asking around the act of non disclosure between couples is not as uncommon as we all think or thought.
as far as the possible option  of children well, even if I was cis I would be able to anyway because of certain health issues (which he knows about)

I will say this I do have 1 concern as of late and that is we are fixing to go to my parents at Christmas for a couple days, but I was reassured to not worry by my mother and other family members we shall see how this goes

Thanks LTL I see you posted while I was answering yours questions, I am glad it is working out as well, I kinda feel also is if he found out by accident that well... I don't think it would bother him that bad we may have to talk a lil but I feel it would be able to be worked out.

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:54:29 PM
Thanks LTL I see you posted while I was answering yours questions, I am glad it is working out as well, I kinda feel also is if he found out by accident that well... I don't think it would bother him that bad we may have to talk a lil but I feel it would be able to be worked out.

I think your mental and physical heath is the most important. Love is an amazing healer

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 07:50:54 PM
I will say this I do have 1 concern as of late and that is we are fixing to go to my parents at Christmas for a couple days, but I was reassured to not worry by my mother and other family members we shall see how this goes

I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win. 

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win.

Im sure Calico will be fine. her mom is really backing her up with everything and moms know how to keep secrets. Learning to love i hope your mom respects you enough to at least remove those photos for the holiday.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 10, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
I hope your family respects your right to privacy.  They have no business to dislcose something for you.  Do you think that will be an issue?  In any case, be sure to deal with any old family photos and make sure no one shares any damaging old stories (you know how family functions can be).  Just so he doesn't start piecing together something you don't want him to.  I know I'm going to have a tough time getting my mother to take down old photos of me.  That's probably a battle I won't win.

I am pretty sure there will not be any issues and my fears are probably unwarranted.  Picture are long  gone what there are are not where they are seen so I don't think I have anything honestly be concerned about just my self paranoia kicking in. Yea all my mom wants is my happiness so im sure there will be no issue

Quote from: gowiththeflow on December 10, 2013, 08:06:37 PM
Im sure Calico will be fine. her mom is really backing her up with everything and moms know how to keep secrets. Learning to love i hope your mom respects you enough to at least remove those photos for the holiday.

I live with my mother and am in the midst of transitioning.  When the time comes, I hope I can convince her to remove the photos, but I doubt that will ever happen.  She has tons of family photos and I'm going to have to get used to the fact that they will always be there.  She is having a really tough time with everything.  I just can't help thinking about what will happen if I ever start dating and want to bring them to meet my mom.  Whether I disclose or not, I really don't want my "boy mode" pictures all over the place.  There is so much I will be willing to share.  In any event, that's a future argument to be had, lol. 

Quote from: calico on December 10, 2013, 09:36:23 PM
I am pretty sure there will not be any issues and my fears are probably unwarranted.  Picture are long  gone what there are are not where they are seen so I don't think I have anything honestly be concerned about just my self paranoia kicking in. Yea all my mom wants is my happiness so im sure there will be no issue

That's great!  I'm sure it will be okay. 

learningtolove im sorry about that. i guess i got lucky in the fact that my mom doesn't like me so she never even cared about me transitioning or anything. i know she was fast to change the pictures and make new ones to put on the wall. (actually was a good idea). my dad hated it when i came out and had a really hard time for quite a while like your mom. but in the end im sure your mom will realize its just not worth the fight and give in. if your still living with her thats a really really good sign. just like steve urkle your wearing her down 
hugs i reallly like you girl you seem down to earth.

Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Quote from: Katie on December 11, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Katie,

I realize you're post op and our experiences are different and you have much to contribute; however,  you can sometimes speak in a way that can be interpreted ad condescending to those of us that are pre-op as though our feelings are irrelevant or that we are lesser. Perhaps you don't mean to, but it can come across that way.  You were once in these shoes yourself.  And while I haven't had srs yet, I doubt I will be a different person.  I've always been female and the person I am. The surgery will only make me feel happier about my body, but that doesn't change that I am me.  Some of us tell or believe we should do so because we feel that's the right thing for us, not necessarily because we must.  Maybe my opinion will change when I'm post op and stealth, but i know post ops that feel the same as I do now.  I don't see that changing for me.  But again I respect everyone's right to do what is best for themselves.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 09:49:51 AM
And while I haven't had srs yet, I doubt I will be a different person.  I've always been female and the person I am. The surgery will only make me feel happier about my body, but that doesn't change that I am me. 

You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

First, I am not moralizing.  I think it's up to everyone to make that choice on their own.  I don't think it will work for me and I have my concerns that it can work, but i don't judge how anyone decides to handle it.  In fact,  I sympathize because I wish I didn't feel obligated to disclose. And I add in that I haven't yet been in those shoes, so there is an ignorance on my part.  Hence, the questions.

Sure, things will change and people will treat me differently.   I've already been experiencing that.  For the most part, it's very nice.  Still, i am me.  Perhaps I will change as things continue.   Without reading the future it's never certain.   My mom has pointed out my changes and is really struggling.   It sucjs, but i hope we can adjust and grow from it.  At the end of the day, I will still be myself, just a more experienced and more confident version.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 11, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
You don't think that altering the entire way your treated and viewed my every single person in the world not to mention altering your body's internal balance will change you. I like you LTL. I like you a lot but you really need to consider in five year's time you may (and prolly will be) and entirely different person. I think this is the thing trans people look over most. How are you going to deal with those changes when their pointed out and possibly used against you? Meaning by your mom. If your just talking about this silly birth gender question then yes that may stay the same.

It's a simple question that everyone is making hard. If you're pre-op you must disclose at some point. If not, it's up to you. It's no one else's business to say anything otherwise or to poke and prod people. No offense but most of the moralizing on this thread is from pre-op women telling post-op women if they don't disclose they can't have a healthy relationship. That ain't true.

This is very very true!! I have read other stories of this happening as well as my own.

Before transition and even during I would of told anyone pre-op or post that you HAVE to tell someone...it is a moral obligation!

Now 2 1/2 years FT and I would tell anyone that it is up to them....and I do consider myself to have decent morals and virtues. It shouldn't be a shock but when you transition into another gender you really do become that gender!! Having surgery will only reinforce the current gender you are transitioning too.

Now in saying this it doesn't help that I still feel like I am deceiving another of an important trait about me....I have to do what I have too...I could die tomorrow what good is it going to do trying to find someone that I am attracted  only because I have no choice...this was what I struggled with when my attraction changed to men, I still tried to pursue lesbians because I felt this was my only choice.

Quote from: Katie on December 11, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
Well I imagine if you have not had SRS you really have no other choice but to tell the person your gender because hey they sure as hell are going to find out.

Now if you have SRS. I would say no your not obligated to do anything you don't want to do. Some people can make some compelling points about why you should tell the other person but then those usually come from people that have yet to have SRS. Go figure....

Yes this will eventually be true...but it doesn't mean you have to disclose the very first time you communicate...unless you want to hop into bed right away.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 11:18:48 AM
First, I am not moralizing.  I think it's up to everyone to make that choice on their own.  I don't think it will work for me and I have my concerns that it can work, but i don't judge how anyone decides to handle it.  In fact,  I sympathize because I wish I didn't feel obligated to disclose. And I add in that I haven't yet been in those shoes, so there is an ignorance on my part.  Hence, the questions.

Sure, things will change and people will treat me differently.   I've already been experiencing that.  For the most part, it's very nice.  Still, i am me.  Perhaps I will change as things continue.   Without reading the future it's never certain.   My mom has pointed out my changes and is really struggling.   It sucjs, but i hope we can adjust and grow from it.  At the end of the day, I will still be myself, just a more experienced and more confident version.

Yes, if you read my post up above....this is also how I once felt and still do a bit!! My morals and my need to just survive to conflict with one another during times like this.

You do change 200% more than you would ever think....I remember before transitioning and reading about pre-op women that would sit to pee, I thought to myself....why feel the need to do that?? I will if I have to but the heck if I will all the time. NOW, I can't imagine what it would be like to stand and pee....I would not even do it in an emergency...no other women can...why should I.....but its not something I ever intended to do...and I don't do it to feel more like a women...I do it because I am a women!!

this might sound weird ,but maybe not. I find it pretty awesome to hear the statement that you have to sit down to pee

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 11, 2013, 12:59:52 PM
This is very very true!! I have read other stories of this happening as well as my own.

Before transition and even during I would of told anyone pre-op or post that you HAVE to tell someone...it is a moral obligation!

Now 2 1/2 years FT and I would tell anyone that it is up to them....and I do consider myself to have decent morals and virtues. It shouldn't be a shock but when you transition into another gender you really do become that gender!! Having surgery will only reinforce the current gender you are transitioning too.

Now in saying this it doesn't help that I still feel like I am deceiving another of an important trait about me....I have to do what I have too...I could die tomorrow what good is it going to do trying to find someone that I am attracted  only because I have no choice...this was what I struggled with when my attraction changed to men, I still tried to pursue lesbians because I felt this was my only choice.
Yes this will eventually be true...but it doesn't mean you have to disclose the very first time you communicate...unless you want to hop into bed right away.

Yes, if you read my post up above....this is also how I once felt and still do a bit!! My morals and my need to just survive to conflict with one another during times like this.

You do change 200% more than you would ever think....I remember before transitioning and reading about pre-op women that would sit to pee, I thought to myself....why feel the need to do that?? I will if I have to but the heck if I will all the time. NOW, I can't imagine what it would be like to stand and pee....I would not even do it in an emergency...no other women can...why should I.....but its not something I ever intended to do...and I don't do it to feel more like a women...I do it because I am a women!!

I respect your view and everyone else's.  Like I said many times before, we all have our own path and have the right to follow it as we choose.

Having said that, I really don't see transitioning as changing into another gender or becoming a woman.  I see it as a way to embrace what I've always been.  Honestly, I don't get the becoming female notion.  I've always identified as such and physically transitioning is not changing that, only embracing it. There is really nothing for me to become.  While it's likely that transitioning will bring about many changes, I doubt the core of who I am or how I perceive the world will.  I've never been a masculine person and don't feel the need to relearn anything nor do I think that anyone has to do it.  Sure, it will be nice to have some more freedom to express myself as I desire without being self conscious (which I often feel and create walls for this reason), but it's not like my starting point was ever masculine, lol.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of changes physically and socially that I would welcome, but it doesn't make me feel that I'm a different person internally.  At the end of the day, we should be who we are.  Whatever that is.  Transitioning shouldn't be about making changes to who we are, in my own opinion, but rather embracing who we are.   

In any event, this is a bit of tangential conversation.  Again, I don't judge anyone that hasn't told their partner.  It's their choice and right to make that decision for themselves.  And I welcome the perspective of anyone in a relationship without disclosure.  I'd like to hear their thoughts, so I can form a better point of view on the subject. 

Quote from: learningtolive on December 11, 2013, 04:53:36 PM
I respect your view and everyone else's.  Like I said many times before, we all have our own path and have the right to follow it as we choose.

Having said that, I really don't see transitioning as changing into another gender or becoming a woman.  I see it as a way to embrace what I've always been.  Honestly, I don't get the becoming female notion.  I've always identified as such and physically transitioning is not changing that, only embracing it. There is really nothing for me to become.  While it's likely that transitioning will bring about many changes, I doubt the core of who I am or how I perceive the world will.  I've never been a masculine person and don't feel the need to relearn anything nor do I think that anyone has to do it.  Sure, it will be nice to have some more freedom to express myself as I desire without being self conscious (which I often feel and create walls for this reason), but it's not like my starting point was ever masculine, lol.  Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of changes physically and socially that I would welcome, but it doesn't make me feel that I'm a different person internally.  At the end of the day, we should be who we are.  Whatever that is.  Transitioning shouldn't be about making changes to who we are, in my own opinion, but rather embracing who we are.   

In any event, this is a bit of tangential conversation.  Again, I don't judge anyone that hasn't told their partner.  It's their choice and right to make that decision for themselves.  And I welcome the perspective of anyone in a relationship without disclosure.  I'd like to hear their thoughts, so I can form a better point of view on the subject.

I think most here share that same point of view. I have always felt that I was a woman but forced myself to be a man...quite frankly I did a fairly good job at it, I was and still am a really good father (parent).

The main thing your missing and you will understand this a few months or years down the road is YOU ARE NOT TREATED AS A WOMAN This and this alone will change your perception of yourself. I cannot tell you how much I feel like the same person I have always been...but at the same time I am completely different!!

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
Not from you LTL, but from this thread here are some comments by pre-ops on the topic of stealth post-ops choosing whether or not to disclose:

So, ya, I feel a wee bit judged. Particularly irritating frankly, is that some of these quotes are from people who were in long term relationships pre-transition and failed to disclose to their partners for many years that they were trans. I am not going to judge that situation. It is entirely foreign to me. I am going to trust that they tried to act in as ethical a manner as they were able. I wish they would trust me the same way.

I usually speak out against posts like Katie's that suggest pre/non-ops don't have the right to an opinion. I fought really hard on the non-op side, even though I was post-op, during some of the "trans elitest wars" that happened on this forum. I feel very strongly that we all have a right to live our own life, in the body that is right for us without being judged or disrespected. And on this issue... I feel like the disrespect is flowing in the other direction. And I get why post-ops get more and more reluctant to post about their experiences with non-disclosure, because the above quotes make it feel pretty damn unwelcome. Sorry. Just the way it feels.

It is very easy moralize decisions that you do not have to make or do not have the option of making.  That is why cis peeps and pre/non-ops seem so apt to say you must always disclose.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 05:22:50 PM
Not from you LTL, but from this thread here are some comments by pre-ops on the topic of stealth post-ops choosing whether or not to disclose:

So, ya, I feel a wee bit judged. Particularly irritating frankly, is that some of these quotes are from people who were in long term relationships pre-transition and failed to disclose to their partners for many years that they were trans. I am not going to judge that situation. It is entirely foreign to me. I am going to trust that they tried to act in as ethical a manner as they were able. I wish they would trust me the same way.

I usually speak out against posts like Katie's that suggest pre/non-ops don't have the right to an opinion. I fought really hard on the non-op side, even though I was post-op, during some of the "trans elitest wars" that happened on this forum. I feel very strongly that we all have a right to live our own life, in the body that is right for us without being judged or disrespected. And on this issue... I feel like the disrespect is flowing in the other direction. And I get why post-ops get more and more reluctant to post about their experiences with non-disclosure, because the above quotes make it feel pretty damn unwelcome. Sorry. Just the way it feels.

I hear you.  Those are some choice words.  Like I said, I'm conflicted on this issue myself, so I don't judge anyone for choosing what's right for them.  Everyone has the right to make the decision on their own. 

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 11, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
I think most here share that same point of view. I have always felt that I was a woman but forced myself to be a man...quite frankly I did a fairly good job at it, I was and still am a really good father (parent).

The main thing your missing and you will understand this a few months or years down the road is YOU ARE NOT TREATED AS A WOMAN This and this alone will change your perception of yourself. I cannot tell you how much I feel like the same person I have always been...but at the same time I am completely different!!

Hey Shelly,

I think are disagreement is based more in semantics than anything.  Truthfully, we can probably agree on most points.  I have no doubt that I will grow and develop as a person.  I just doubt my core beliefs will as well.  In my head, I would love the ability to not disclose, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable not doing so.  Again, it's not a knock on anyone else.  I just don't think I could make that work for myself, as tempting as it is, once I'm post-op and fully stealth.  It will be hard for me, but I feel like it's something I must do.  Like I said, it's a very personal choice and we must choose what's right for us. 

no need for anyone to feel judged. once you close that laptop or put your smartphones away the topics on susans are out of sight out of mind. you get to go out and live your life, tell or dont tell who ever you want. i have noticed people tend to have alot of negative things to say in general online. i say just chill and go with the flow. you tell if and when you want to.just live your life and have a little fun with it. no need to worry so much about some things

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 11, 2013, 07:36:00 PM
I've been on this forum some time now. Fairly consistently for a good 3 years. I joined just after the reputation reset, which means every single one of the 116 points on my profile is from a specific, individual user. I don't really like the rep system very much, and argued against it when it was temporarily disabled at one point. But it gives some indication of the amount of effort I've put into this forum to try to help folks, to try to keep them feeling safe and secure here.

Some of those quotes above and other negative comments in this thread are from people who I've defended or supported or assisted. Some of them are among those who gave me that 116. There are people who aren't anonymous folks on the internets. There are people who I know something about their lives, who I genuinely respect, and who I thought respected me. They are part of a community that has a hard-earned reputation for welcoming everyone and anyone, as long as they respect everyone else.

So, ya, it does feel like a bit of a betrayal. To watch those same people stand up and tell me "this is what you should do, this is right and this is wrong, and how can you even doubt the difference?" To decide for me what I should be doing in my life, to tell me and people I care for that we are immoral, bad, wrong, stupid, unsafe for living our lives as we choose.

And this is hardly the first time. This is a topic that rises again and again to offer the opportunity for folks to spit out their judgements on us, to decide if the lives we live are worthy. To make me doubt if I have real allies here.

It makes me wonder, the years that I've fought to make this space safer, if I wasn't just fighting to make it safer for one group at the expense of another, at the expense of my own. Maybe there really are uncrossable lines between those who have surgery and live their lives like I do, and those who don't or haven't. Maybe all I've done is betray my own kind.

I don't think the issue is post op vs pre op. There are plenty of post op women that would agree with those quotes and plenty of pre ops that disagree.  This comes down to opinions which surgery status is irrelevant.   I hate silly distinctions.  I'm pre op today but will be post op when I can.  Why do we have to break into groups?  Should the current me not defend the future me and vice versa?  I do agree that this is the right of every individual and respect the stealth lifestyle.   It's something I aspire to with the exception of disclosure to a partner.  Live for you.