Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

I know you mean well hun and I share your feelings on this matter however....

Moderator, please delete this thread. I have seen similar threads BLOW UP and get very ugly very fast.

That's people Lana they are always going to be people who look down on you for one reason or another. While I fully plan on and will have the surgery because I decided it was the right thing for me. It's not up to me to tell someone else they have to have the surgery too. Just remember when someone puts you down for something it's normally to mask their on insecurities and I wouldn't let it bother you.

When and if things start to go wrong, we will step in, until then, lets just try to keep things civil.

That shouldn't be so hard.

My gender counselor told me something which surprised me very early on in our work together. She's a very highly respected gender identity counselor, she knows her stuff. Prior to undergoing HRT, she listed out the things I could expect to change, and those I could expect wouldn't. One she made clear was my chromosomes would remain the same... obviously.  A subtle point, but an important one. We can only change our appearance to match our brains, that's it.

Good and important topic IMO, I'll be happy to sign the 'stay civil' pledge. 

Hi Lana! I have a good idea how you feel and why. Believe it or not I used to be uptight and judgmental at one time, However since coming out and accepting myself I have found a tolerance I never knew I could have for people. I feel now that whatever a person want's to be and is comfortable with should be that, period, and should be accepted. The decision, yes or no to SRS, is your business and you should be respected for making whatever choice you choose. I for one consider you a female whether you have SRS or not. You will always be my sister whatever your exterior shows to dispute that. You are who you are on the inside and in your soul and that should be good enough. People will always find faults or make judgments about others. That is just basic human nature so let it roll off your back and keep your head up.

I am sorry you feel this way about ones who have had there GCS. Yes another new way to say SRS/GRS.

If anyone understand and has read the WPATH SOC they will know that there is not cut and dry treatments for GID. So to say you have to have SRS to be the gender is truly bull ->-bleeped-<-.

As for the horror stories i feel you might be just a litte over reacting to them. There are so many boys and girls getting SRS all around the world every day but never have been on forums and or come back after. Most want to put that part behind them as fast as possible.

There are few of us willing to stick around and help others who wish to have answers from us who have work to our own needed ending path.

So it comes down to your own feeling inside. You need to make your own decision of what you need to be happy. Just remember not everyone feels the same as you and it is there opion.

I would not want anyone to do anything they wish not to do. and that is why we have the SOC.  With all this said i was one who wanted my path to end with GCS and i am more happier today because of it.

Hugs my sister.
Isabell

I don't hear much of the attitude you're talking about here at Susan's. Doesn't mean it's not there - I might just not be noticing it.

IRL, I know very few post-op women. Almost all the trans women I know are pre-op/non-op. Among them, I've actually seen the opposite reaction. I recently had a pre-op friend break off all contact with me because I got a surgery date, while she couldn't afford one. In a support group meeting, I once mentioned I was thinking of getting SRS and was treated to a fusilade of superiority because they'd all gotten past the need to have it.

At Susan's more often I hear post-op women talk about how they personally needed SRS but that they wouldn't recommend it to someone else unless they couldn't do without.

For someone like me, who is getting SRS out of choice - because a female bottom will help me be at peace with my body rather than because I can't stand it the way I am - I'm surprised at how little pressure I've gotten to go through with it.

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

Years ago, I became part of a spiritual community in town. It was a move made out of inspiration - the people, the teachings, the practices, everything seemed so congruent to me, speaking to parts of my being that had never been spoken to before. As I stepped ever deeper into this involvement, however, I started hitting some pretty tough edges. There was judgement. There were hierarchies. There were battles. One day, I complained about this to the head teacher. She laughed and said, 'Darling, being spiritual doesn't mean we stop being human!'

This memory comes up a lot as I find myself becoming part of the trans world. Much to my shock, there is judgement. Much to my shock, there are hierarchies. Much to my shock, there are battles. We are people, it seems, and, as with most people I know, things can get a wee bit messy.

Which is absolutely not a dismissal of your point, Lana. I feel it is both very valid and very important. 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that encompasses a wide range of experiences and perspectives. I would like to aspire toward a community in which our differences enrich and inform, as opposed to one in which said differences entrench and embattle.

This said, however, given our diversity, friction and judgement seem inevitable. In such cases, raising our concerns as you have and working to stay open/civil as Sarah suggests seem good steps in the direction of collective well being and mutual understanding.       

My post was not to start anything or stir the pot so to speak just something I have come in contact over my transition and wanted a open thread where people could talk. I'm fully understanding to people who feel they need to change down below to match how they feel. But also wanted to point out that not everyone feels the need to change down below. And that you're not any less of the gender you choose to live as if you don't want anything changed down there.

If that makes any sense.

Everyone's identity is unique to them as are their lives, decisions, reasons for making those decisions, etc. I like it that way. I hope I make sense.

Edge yup you make sense

I think it has to do with society wanting to know things and have clear cut distinctions. I think this is seen in many interviews with trans* people.

However, I don't think this to be true because the trans* friends I have known pre-transition never fit their birth gender roles. They simply are men and women regardless of genitals. If my friends choose to have surgery then that is their decision and it isn't my business to know either. 

As of now i want srs. This may be because i want to rid myself of any reminder of my male mode. But after i start hrt i may find i need that male part of me. Maybe some people need this part of them to remain balanced. Just a thought.

your right. their is a big push to get SRS and to conform in so many ways. i will admit i had no idea what i was getting myself into when i did srs or even FFS/ they were right for me but still i noticed doctors push for those as did others. society has strong views on things like this. well at least in the south. out west it seems a little more open.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 09, 2014, 11:38:17 AM
I know you mean well hun and I share your feelings on this matter however....

Moderator, please delete this thread. I have seen similar threads BLOW UP and get very ugly very fast.

I think it's a good topic and very timely given some recent comments. If problems arise, our mods are more than capable of handling things.

My whole reason for planning SRS is I need it to kill the Dysphoria. I am afraid having "it" down there will trigger me. I also would some day love to have a relationship (good luck with that) with a tolerant male who will love ME and not just "it". It is strictly a personal decision for me. I want to feel and look like a woman all over. I also do not like having "it" because of the need to tuck all the time (painful sometimes) and the surprise slips leading to major outings. "It" is a major case of depression and Dysphoria for me, that's all.

Lana is right. There are many groups which espouse a theory that goes something like this:

Any legitimate trassexual would want GRS and if given the oppourtunitty will get it. If they dont, they are not transsexual but instead are men, male transgenders, cross dressers or sex fetishists. This is not at all uncommon and I will be honest and say I felt exactly that same way at one point.

At the time it seemed reasonable to me and there are a lot of odd people who use the word trans to describe themselves that I still find unusual in their desires.

Over time though, I came to realise that GRS is not the be all and end all for everyone. Many transition and never get GRS or wait a long time to have it. Some dont feel dyshphoric over that part of there body or ambivalent about it. Some are just plain scared of the surgery and initimidated by the expense. Some would like it but cant afford a top rate surgeon and arent willing to take the risk of anything less. A few arent disturbed by using it as a sexual organ and living in every other way as a female.

I also realised that post-op people had a tendency to consider themselves as superior or more female or more authentic than those pre-op. This in spite of the fact that surgery is often unrealistic if for no other reason than financial. Their air if superiority rubbed me the wrong way, in fact it became downright annoying.

Being transsexual is not something new. But GRS is new, it only became easy to access in the last 20 or 30 years. So were all the many tens of thousands who lived before us not legitmate in some way. What about if they develop the ability to create reproductive capacity in trans women. Will that be the new standard up on which we are judged?

So, over time my opinion changed. I got to meet a number of trans women in person. Both pre-op and post-op. I still think that some of both dont act very female by my standards and came to realise that surgery was a personal decision. That being female has more to do with how you behave and socialize and conduct your life. There is something subtle about it, but once you know how to look for it, its not hard to find.

For myself GRS matters. I could explain it endlessly but put simply I dont feel authentic without it. But others do and that does not make them better or worse than me, just different. I also realised that it has been sold to us by doctors and an entire industry that is geared towards making money off us. An industry dominated by men mostly who also promote the idea that you arent a "real" female without the holy grail of surgeries. Kind of reminds me of all the unrealistic expectations that are pushed onto women in general by the fashion and beauty industry where we are constatly bombarded with images of perfect females with perfect bodies and hair that is always perfect.

So, I changed my mind. I dont think GRS is for everybody nor do I believe it makes any of us more inately female. It never was true and slowly over time we are coming to realise it.

Quote from: amber1964 on January 09, 2014, 04:02:31 PM
Lana is right. There are many groups which espouse a theory that goes something like this:

Any legitimate trassexual would want GRS and if given the oppourtunitty will get it. If they dont, they are not transsexual but instead are men, male transgenders, cross dressers or sex fetishists. This is not at all uncommon and I will be honest and say I felt exactly that same way at one point.

At the time it seemed reasonable to me and there are a lot of odd people who use the word trans to describe themselves that I still find unusual in their desires.

Over time though, I came to realise that GRS is not the be all and end all for everyone. Many transition and never get GRS or wait a long time to have it. Some dont feel dyshphoric over that part of there body or ambivalent about it. Some are just plain scared of the surgery and initimidated by the expense. Some would like it but cant afford a top rate surgeon and arent willing to take the risk of anything less. A few arent disturbed by using it as a sexual organ and living in every other way as a female.

I also realised that post-op people had a tendency to consider themselves as superior or more female or more authentic than those pre-op. This in spite of the fact that surgery is often unrealistic if for no other reason than financial. Their air if superiority rubbed me the wrong way, in fact it became downright annoying.

Being transsexual is not something new. But GRS is new, it only became easy to access in the last 20 or 30 years. So were all the many tens of thousands who lived before us not legitmate in some way. What about if they develop the ability to create reproductive capacity in trans women. Will that be the new standard up on which we are judged?

So, over time my opinion changed. I got to meet a number of trans women in person. Both pre-op and post-op. I still think that some of both dont act very female by my standards and came to realise that surgery was a personal decision. That being female has more to do with how you behave and socialize and conduct your life. There is something subtle about it, but once you know how to look for it, its not hard to find.

For myself GRS matters. I could explain it endlessly but put simply I dont feel authentic without it. But others do and that does not make them better or worse than me, just different. I also realised that it has been sold to us by doctors and an entire industry that is geared towards making money off us. An industry dominated by men mostly who also promote the idea that you arent a "real" female without the holy grail of surgeries. Kind of reminds me of all the unrealistic expectations that are pushed onto women in general by the fashion and beauty industry where we are constatly bombarded with images of perfect females with perfect bodies and hair that is always perfect.

So, I changed my mind. I dont think GRS is for everybody nor do I believe it makes any of us more inately female. It never was true and slowly over time we are coming to realise it.

yes they use to mention this to me in therapy sometimes that if you are female you wont want to live without being corrected and having a vagina. to me i think i understood it and agreed with them after a while but since coming to susans and actually talking to people im learning their are other views to this topic other than what i was told and thought

I know that for me personally, I need to have all my surgeries in order to feel like I've "gotten there." It's not because I feel like a penis makes a man or a vagina makes a woman, I just need that to be comfortable with myself and my body. So from a personal standpoint, I can't really see why someone wouldn't want SRS. However, I realize that just because I don't "get it", doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves. I also don't care to analyze another person to determine their "true gender" lol. If they say they're a guy, I'll call them a guy, if they say they're a girl, they're a girl. Simple as that.

And I figure...if you can save yourself the expense, pain, healing, etc...and be happy with what you have...more power to you. That's where we're all trying to get at the end of the day, right?