Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

You can't be Female / Male if you don't get SRS - GRS Whatever

Started by Lana P, January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jenna Marie

Personally, I think the thread title belief is ridiculous. I was a woman long before anybody had a chance to rearrange my genitals; to the extent that I had a "sex change," it was when I legally, publicly, and socially changed my gender marker. GRS was a coda for ME, and me alone. It solved some private and logistical issues and it made me happier with my body, but it did NOT make me a woman. If anything, my life would've been easier had I been able to cope with the bottom dysphoria and remain a woman with a penis; cheaper, too. Heck, I was still willing to stand to pee when I found myself in a disgusting port-o-potty about 3 weeks before my surgery date!

I don't think anyone who's seriously on the fence should be pushed to go through with surgery they don't want and take risks they don't need; what constitutes "enough doubts" is up to that person to decide, too. (I had some doubts. I was still sure I'd be happy afterward. So I'm not in the "if you're only 99% sure then you should wait/be denied" camp, either.) Of course, I guess I'm just disgustingly moderate, b/c I believe it's up to each person to decide what's right for themselves. :) I also don't like the threads about how GRS is guaranteed to be a terrifying nightmare or post-ops are all snotty jerks, since in my experience... well, personal experiences vary!

(I do think to say there are complications "more often than not" is overstating the case a tad, unless "complication" is considered to include all the minor ones as well - like allergies to antibiotics and nausea from the anesthetic - that can happen anytime. Which is not to say that I'm trying to talk anyone into anything, but I had a devil of a time getting accurate facts and statistics on things like complications because of both "sides" getting a little carried away.)
  •  

Jaelithe

I recently came out to my Mother, and though I'm pretty sure she isn't going to accept me no matter what, she definitely was bullheaded that viewpoint.  It was pretty odd, given that she'd literally JUST finished telling me that I was born male, so I'm a man and there's nothing I can do about it.  She then went on to say "Oh, you haven't done the surgery yet?  Then you're still a man."(paraphrased)  This was pretty much the crap I was expecting, knowing my Mom, but oh well.


  •  

Tristan

Quote from: Jaelithe on January 09, 2014, 06:09:19 PM
I recently came out to my Mother, and though I'm pretty sure she isn't going to accept me no matter what, she definitely was bullheaded that viewpoint.  It was pretty odd, given that she'd literally JUST finished telling me that I was born male, so I'm a man and there's nothing I can do about it.  She then went on to say "Oh, you haven't done the surgery yet?  Then you're still a man."(paraphrased)  This was pretty much the crap I was expecting, knowing my Mom, but oh well.
yeah that seems to be the way most people think. and explaining it to them is so hard as alot of them dont even want to understand
  •  

Christine167

Body modification surgies aren't intended as a "given" for humans. We don't sign ourselves up for many things just because like clipping certain breeds of dogs tails. About the closest thing that we do as humans are piercings and circumcisions.

The surgies are expensive and dangerous and entail more risks than just the "knife". Infection, anesthesia reactions, trouble waking, falls, etc. are all things that happen that don't have anything directly to do with the knife. And yet they happen and at the very least hurt if not kill/maim patients. Also be aware that once you start down that route you are a customer for life. It's the same for any major surgery. Maintenance and revisions are often needed with any kind of surgery and surgeons generally take care of that for you for a fee.

Should you be afraid of GRS/SRS or any other established surgery? No. Surgeons don't sign you up for this kind of thing if they think that you aren't likely to survive, recover and succeed in your goal. It's bad for business and practice/hospital standards really won't let a doctor get away with shoddy work for long before filing formal complaints and charges and finally stripping their privileges. Should you be worried about revisions and follow ups? Nope, the human body changes over time and many of those revisions are for small aesthetic reasons or for additional comfort. Again not many surgeons stay in business and out of prison for long if they aren't actually good at what they do.

I think everyone should have the right to do or not do whatever they want to their bodies within the boundaries of "do no harm". If you think that having SRS will help you then perhaps the benefits out weigh the risks and you should go for it. Otherwise if you're happy then be happy. The same goes for any surgery really. That's the goal right? To be able to be happy with yourself?
  •  

Tristan

Quote from: Christine167 on January 09, 2014, 10:03:46 PM
Body modification surgies aren't intended as a "given" for humans. We don't sign ourselves up for many things just because like clipping certain breeds of dogs tails. About the closest thing that we do as humans are piercings and circumcisions.

The surgies are expensive and dangerous and entail more risks than just the "knife". Infection, anesthesia reactions, trouble waking, falls, etc. are all things that happen that don't have anything directly to do with the knife. And yet they happen and at the very least hurt if not kill/maim patients. Also be aware that once you start down that route you are a customer for life. It's the same for any major surgery. Maintenance and revisions are often needed with any kind of surgery and surgeons generally take care of that for you for a fee.

Should you be afraid of GRS/SRS or any other established surgery? No. Surgeons don't sign you up for this kind of thing if they think that you aren't likely to survive, recover and succeed in your goal. It's bad for business and practice/hospital standards really won't let a doctor get away with shoddy work for long before filing formal complaints and charges and finally stripping their privileges. Should you be worried about revisions and follow ups? Nope, the human body changes over time and many of those revisions are for small aesthetic reasons or for additional comfort. Again not many surgeons stay in business and out of prison for long if they aren't actually good at what they do.

I think everyone should have the right to do or not do whatever they want to their bodies within the boundaries of "do no harm". If you think that having SRS will help you then perhaps the benefits out weigh the risks and you should go for it. Otherwise if you're happy then be happy. The same goes for any surgery really. That's the goal right? To be able to be happy with yourself?
yeah i use to care what people thought about me alot. im seriously, in high school and then sorority life in college you have to care if you want to continue to fit in and not have everyone pick on you for being the trans girl. but after college, srs and everything i really cant say i care to much if the odd person says ,"your not a woman" because i know its not true. if i get arrested i know i still end up on the girls side and even more i get validation  all the time that i am a woman and kinda cute. shallow reasons i know but none the less they work and for me surgery did have alot to do with this perception for me and the depression completely going away. however i do know that surgery is not for everyone. like you said it can be expensive
  •  

Thylacin

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

Those people are just ignorant, some women have a penis, and some men have a vagina. That's all there is to it.
  •  

Natkat

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.
I don't think theres so much to discuss, it really peoples choice and nobodys busniss if they want and feel it nessesarry to have this surgery or not. (at least it should be) unfurtunatly many place are very binary on the system. alot of country have rules where you HAVE to have that surgery or some kind of bottom surgery hystotomy-and such... to be reconized as male/female by the goverment. =( and yeah also many place transgender are pretty binary. I really dont think it nessesarry to force surgery on anyone who dont find it nessesarry and I get annoyed when people belive thats fair" or "then your real trans kind of provement" once I had a girl who said to my friend (who is mtf) "I wont call you she untill you get a sexchange surgery"
she used over 2 years to save up money for it so I told her "okay if you undergo a surgery and pay (amount money) then I will start calling you she.
---

  •  

Emmaline

In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!
Body... meet brain.  Now follow her lead and there will be no more trouble, you dig?



  •  

kelly_aus

Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!

Actually, you're not.. See my post here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157697.msg1336129.html#msg1336129
  •  

Kyra553

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

I think its one of those self righteous things. They went through the pains of having it done and they believe its the biggest best thing because they had it done to them. Sort of like bragging almost.  For me I dont plan to have SRS and I dont plan to date men. So I have no need to waste time on SRS personally when that chunk of change can be used for so much more.

Besides we all are the same in a way. We wish to be who we were meant to be. There is no need to hate one another over something petty. There are to many cis people hating us for that. So why are we doing it to ourselves?
  •  

Lana P

Very well said alabamagirl, Natallie553.

I'm glad there are so many views on this and I'm glad to have started this conversation.
  •  

Missy~rmdlm

>90% of trans people don't have SRS. This is news how? Don't let people get to you. Further one should only have SRS if they need it. It's not a want surgery.   
  •  

Beyond

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AMSince I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

So much I want to respond to in this thread, but I'll start here.

Before I start I want to say I'm not judging or targeting anyone.


1. I respect that others choose to not have SRS.  However, I cannot imagine not having it.  From the start I knew what my path would be.  Again, I'm not judging anyone else, I'm saying for ME it (SRS) was a must.

2. A couple people mentioned complications.  My experience is people who are non-op tend to exaggerate these complications.  Most people DO have comlpications, but they are mostly minor ones.  I think people exaggerate complications to make themselves feel better for their own decision not to have SRS.  You don't have to do that folks.

3. Some mentioned the results were unrealistic.  Really?  Do you have any idea of the variation in vulvar appearance in women?  Most transsexual women who have had SRS look fine.  Again, some seem to be trying to justify why they don't get SRS.  You don't have to do that folks.

4. Some mentioned the dismissive attitude of non-trans people ("You're not female if you haven't had the op yet").  Screw these people; seriously.  These folks are just messing with you; making it sound like they will be accepting after you do have SRS.  NOPE!  They simply come up with new excuses then.  The only person you should have SRS for is yourself, period.

5.  I understand some post-op people are arrogant and elitist about SRS, but in my experience they are a small minority.

6.  Some non-op people are surgical phobes.  This often comes out a concern over loss of sexual function.  Well even if I knew going in there was no sensation after I still would have had SRS because that's what I needed for my physical dysphoria. The number of people who lose sensation is very, very small.

7.  On a related front someone said they questioned if SRS was worth dying for.  My answer?  YES it was.  Again, that's my answer and my experience and I realize that's not how others may feel.

8.  Someone said people bragged about SRS as though it was their biggest achievement.  I find that odd myself.  To me it was just one piece of the overall project we call transition.  I count many milestones as being very important to me.

Starting therapy and starting electro; both I did the same month I got a divorce, moved a thousand miles and started a new job.
Starting HRT.  HRT changed my life.  People think I exaggerate, but I never knew how unhappy I was until I started on estrogen.  Overnight I went from being "the glass is half empty" kind of person to "the glass is half full" kind of person.
Next, my legal name change.  It may sound silly, but it was one of the happiest days of my life.
Next, FFS in conjunction with full-time.  The ghost in the mirror was gone and so was that old nightmare of a life.
Last, SRS which was the icing on the cake.

All these things (and more) were part of the process, the medical treatment, that made me whole.  They made the life I have now possible.  I am whole.  At the same time I don't go bragging about SRS and can't understand why others do so OR use that as a basis to judge anyone else.  The key is everyone must do what's best for them.


9. One last point.  MONEY.  I think in a perfect world, where money wasn't an obstacle, there would be a LOT more people having SRS.  But we don't live in a perfect world and people cope the best way they can.  Unfortunately a lot of people who claim to not want SRS really do.  But for a number of reasons (money being #1, surgical fears, religious reasons, familial issues and more) they choose not to.  That's fine, but these people shouldn't go badmouthing SRS as dangerous, unnecessary etc.


10.  Okay I lied, one more point.  Transition is a HIGHLY charged, intensely personal journey unlike any other.  As a result many times we end up being our own worst enemies.  We fight.  We judge.  We sometimes tear others down and they often do the same to us.  It's important to remember that in that respect transition is quite similar to adolescence.  Only unlike for non-trans people we often have to navigate this whole overwhelming phase of life alone.  We most often don't have the benefit of parents and other family members to counsel us and moderate our behavior.  The good news is that for most of us we grow through the process, mature and move on.

Be good to each other.

Do what you need to do for yourself.

Don't worry about what other trans people or non-trans people think.

Resist judging others; they are on their own unique path.

Be true to yourself, listen to your heart and you won't go wrong.


Sorry for the length.
  •  

Zumbagirl

Quote from: Beyond on January 17, 2014, 02:07:09 AM
So much I want to respond to in this thread, but I'll start here.

Before I start I want to say I'm not judging or targeting anyone.


1. I respect that others choose to not have SRS.  However, I cannot imagine not having it.  From the start I knew what my path would be.  Again, I'm not judging anyone else, I'm saying for ME it (SRS) was a must.

2. A couple people mentioned complications. 

3. Some mentioned the results were unrealistic.  Really? 

4. Some mentioned the dismissive attitude of non-trans people ("You're not female if you haven't had the op yet").  Screw these people; seriously. 

5.  I understand some post-op people are arrogant and elitist about SRS, but in my experience they are a small minority.

6.  Some non-op people are surgical phobes. 

7.  On a related front someone said they questioned if SRS was worth dying for.  My answer?  YES it was. 

8.  Someone said people bragged about SRS as though it was their biggest achievement.  I find that odd myself.  To me it was just one piece of the overall project we call transition.  I count many milestones as being very important to me.


9. One last point.  MONEY. 

10.  Okay I lied, one more point.  Transition is a HIGHLY charged, intensely personal journey unlike any other.  As a result many times we end up being our own worst enemies. 

Be good to each other.

Do what you need to do for yourself.


Wow I couldn't agree more with you. I can only say in my case if I lost sexual function, or died on the operating room table it was a risk I was willing to take. I even told my surgeon if I died to make sure the operation was complete. i'm willing to bet that I wasn't the first person to say it to him either. My life would have been incomplete without this operation. To me (and this only means me) I wouldn't have been able to call myself female without it. I would still be able to live a woman's life, but to me I would have almost felt like a man living a womans life, not a female living a womans life. The day after the operation was done I realized I survived and made it and now I would have a life to live.

One thing I do notice about surgery-tracked websites, even from the surgeons themselves, is that they tend to focus on fairly new surgery patients. When I was having surgery, I remember seeing sites with pictures like 10 days post-op and 20 days post-op. What I can say in my humble opinion is that there are no 2 years post-op and 5 years post-op pictures. Because it's by then that life is pretty normal down there and pretty female in appearance by then. So for anyone who is surgery tracked don't base your decison on the realism of the surgery based on a few pictures from online of a recent post-op. It's simply not going to be an accurate indicator of long term healing.

I personally don't judge people, they take their own personal journey as far as they want. For some it's very far and for some it's not very far at all. Who cares though? If someone is happy then that's all that matters. There shouldn't be some kind of ladder to climb. If someone is surgery tracked then it may seem like when they are going through the process of climbing a ladder to get to each next stage, but life really isn't like that. The only thing I will say though is how one person feels (surgery or no surgery) and how society feels are still at odds and I'm not sure that will change soon or even if at all. That's the reality of the world we live in. If we want to change the world's view of us then we will never accomplish it at the ballot box or a court of law. The only way is one person at a time. That's how minds will change and the fear will dissipate.
  •  

Inanna

No one can define someone else, or truly know how they feel.

Anyone reading this, please don't project inner feelings onto others.  With that said, I plan on having surgery pretty soon.
  •  

JoanneB

Quote from: Heather on January 09, 2014, 11:43:14 AM
That's people Lana they are always going to be people who look down on you for one reason or another. While I fully plan on and will have the surgery because I decided it was the right thing for me. It's not up to me to tell someone else they have to have the surgery too. Just remember when someone puts you down for something it's normally to mask their on insecurities and I wouldn't let it bother you. :)
I couldn't agree more. TSs in my support group who have had surgery are not snooty at all about it nor push any agenda. We all need to do what works for us when we are able to.
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
  •  

JLT1

We are what we are, we have what we have.  It is what we are on the inside that matters. 

Having said that, I think that a person has to know and be ready to have SRS.  There is a time and the journey is different for each one of us.  Some were ready long before they started the process.  For others, they do not need it or want it to be happy.

Yet, for me, this is a confusing journey. I'm intersexed.  I got my SRS letter before I had RLE when I got a medical waiver of the requirement.  I had a harder time getting my letter for FFS.  I feel it's going just a little fast and people are pushing and at least a one doctor is either stupid or lied to me last week. 

I want to live as a woman and discover more about myself before I take that next step. I'm tentatively set for the fall but that can change, that can be postponed.  I want FFS first. 

Hugs,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

TinaMadisonWhite

Quote from: Tanya W on January 09, 2014, 12:19:55 PM

Much to my shock, there is judgement. Much to my shock, there are hierarchies. Much to my shock, there are battles. . . . .  This said, however, given our diversity, friction and judgement seem inevitable.

Amen!

I LOVE that some of us get SRS and some of us don't.  I LOVE that some of us dress "fem"and others dress "butch".   It says that we are just as unique and individual as the rest of the world. 

Even my lovely wife has occasionally been guilty of stereotyping:  "Oh, look, honey, there's another trans woman, go talk to her!"  All I can say is that she meant well. 

Rather than feel threatened by or judgmental about our differences, we ought to celebrate the fact that we are all so unique.   The fact that you made a different decision about your life ultimately validates my decisions about mine:  Neither of us made our decisions because we fit a category.  We made them because we are very unique people.

I love no-ops, pre-ops and post-ops.  God bless us, every one!

Now where's the punch bowl?
  •  

Agent_J

I'll add that I'm glad this discussion exists, particularly as someone who regrets having SRS (but does not regret any other part of transition.)

There is a long history of medical and mental health professionals enforcing it as a requirement. It used to be the rule but it's more rare now. I experienced it from multiple therapists and doctors and, ultimately, had SRS due to it - needing to be able to have my legal ID updated, escape their screwing with my HRT every month, etc. And I'm happy for having had SRS for that part, but that's not the same as being happy with how my body was changed by SRS; I very much regret that aspect of SRS.
  •  

Shantel

Back in the day before WPATH became the more reasonable standard of care there was the Harry Benjamin SOC which made doctors and therapists gatekeepers who insisted that one either become male or female through full transition which included SRS. It became an expectation for everyone which was really annoying and I for one am pleased that those draconian rules are now past history.
  •