Hi everyone! I've been ghosting around this site for years but I don't think I've made an account before now. (Or maybe I have and I don't remember the username, whoops)

I have a question. Is it possible to be a "male androgyne"? Or is that a problematic term to use because it involves both a binary gender identity and a non-binary gender identity? I feel like I've heard the term around some time or other, but it usually referred to people who had an androgynous gender identity and wanted to have a physical male body. I want an androgynous body, mostly, and my gender is kind of rooted in between androgyne and male (or perhaps encompassing both). I would like to be socially male and recognized as male, and overall I feel androgynous.

Male and androgyne are the labels that I relate to most, but I don't know if it's... offensive to use them both together? I don't want to be offensive to non-binary identities by meshing it together with a binary identity. Especially since I don't identify as "both male and female". I don't identify as female at all. And I do semi-identity as male. Mostly I just feel kind of... neutral though?

As far as the ftm label... I don't think I'm comfortable with it because it sort of refers to the process of physical transitioning, and I don't know if I want to fully physical transition into a male body. I feel like that might make me just as uncomfortable and unable to recognize myself as a super feminine one does.

Are there androgynes who feel more comfortable being referred to as a binary gender rather than a non-binary one? (In my case because people understand how to treat someone who's male more easily than they do someone who's androgyne... and some people will sometimes even default to treating that person as their birth sex which is absolutely unacceptable in my case) Or are there people who feel like a mismash gender-wise between a more neutral identity and a more binary one?

I was born male bodied. Inside, I feel sort of male-ish. But I've been living for the past 7 months as a woman and loving it.

Non-binary folk are allowed to choose whichever way they are most comfortable to present their gender (like everyone else is).

It comes up in discussion every so often, just what different labels, terms and such mean.
Pretty much changes every time someone asks.
Even the use of non-binary and binary are at odds with some peoples definitions of themselves.
But we use those two a lot, then break it down from there. Like FTM, MTF, etc.
Here, I use non-binary to simply clarify some things discussed.
There are no rules, regulations, standards, none of that here.
(so long as it stays within the site rules or TOS as it's called)
You can drive yourself crazy trying to keep track of them all.
It's to diverse of a community to even have standardized labels, we all seem to have different definitions of them.

But more importantly, the use of labels will have a tendency to box you into it, either by someone else or yourself.
Non-binary is is still a label and it does come with it's own box, but it's pretty big, room enough to move around in.
Which is why labels aren't that good of an idea. A description, however is, as it can be easily changed and is less confusing.
Non-binaries have a tendency, for quite a few, to move about in how they describe themselves.
And we just don't mind if you want to change or that you are changing for whatever reason. It's pretty common.

But to answer your question, sure you can use male androgyn, there isn't any reason not to, especially if it's within your description.
You can combine non-binary and binary at times, there are people who fall into an ever growing grey area between those labels.
Which goes right back around to using labels.
It's a lot easier to be yourself than a label and it's easier on you to stay out of the boxes they create.

If you find yourself here, that's good enough. There are far more important things than labels.
But then some people find them helpful in centering themselves, which is just fine.
I think they understand that they are always changing and can change labels if they so choose.
It's entirely up to you how you want to use labels or lack of.
They still get tossed around as a shorthand way of describing different aspects at times.
But there's that description thing again. Which works pretty well.

You're accepted whether you choose to use labels or not.
You're accepted by any description you care to use.
This section is called androgyn only because it started out that way.
It's been discussed at times whether to change it, but really, nobody cares that much and it carries a history with it that shouldn't be lost.
It's the place that non-binary and binary people come for answers.
And to just hang around because it's a pretty nice place to just be most days.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on January 17, 2014, 07:26:02 PM

It's a lot easier to be yourself than a label and it's easier on you to stay out of the boxes they create.

I agree, these labels can really drive you crazy and give you just as many problems as the labels "Man" and "Woman". It's yet another set of expectations one feels the need to if not live up to, at least, compare oneself against. I don't feel comfortable with the MtF label, mainly because I don't want to live up to those expectations, and those of a binary woman either. I may very well transition and have a woman's body someday, but I still won't like people telling me I have to do this or think this way based on what my body looks like or what I identify as. I like my description "More like a girl than a guy" a lot better than any of these labels, because it's totally accurate and yet leaves completely ambiguous in what ways.

Thanks for the responses. I like getting a handle on a label because it helps me to conceptualize things, and I feel like once I figure out a base I can expand it and wiggle around from there. But I also agree with you that labels can be confining. I spent so long trying to shove myself into one box and then another and I found that I wasn't fully comfortable in either one.

Now I guess I'm trying to explore more of a median ground and give myself room to feel things out. I have a good idea of what I want to do transition-wise, which I think is going to make me a lot more comfortable. And then from there I can parse things out even more.

I'm glad to know that it's not so weird for other people to feel this way, even if there may not be "exact labels" for it. And also that I'm not necessarily "wrong" for connecting with two.

Sometimes the best label to describe my gender is "male", at other times "feminine male", "genderqueer", "feminine", "genderflluid"... It used to confuse me as I didn't know who or what the hell I was!  But now I believe that the idea that a person has an unchanging sense of internal gender and will always want to express that in a certain way is just a cultural peculiarity.  For me, when I understood this I saw that my main issue was not "what am I?" but instead "how do I negotiate expressing myself in a culture that has fairly strict gender boundaries, and deal with my negative emotions and self image that are a result of growing up in that culture".

Well I have the same problem as well. Not sure if I'm genderqueer or mtf. Maybe I'm a bit of both, I'm just trying to figure it out day by day. Most of the time I'm presenting as androgynous other times more on the feminine side. I still go by my male name and by male pronouns though. I would like to switch to the female role full time but I'm afraid about all the social consequences. Especially new gender role expectations that I don't want to be trapped in either.

It's the very concept of a binary spectrum that presents the difficulties for most people.
From it comes the term, non-binary.
Get rid of the idea that there is a spectrum at all.
It implies that there is one ultimate male and one female, that everyone else are somewhere in between.
This couldn't be farther from the truth.
There isn't anyone who embodies the complete ideals of either.
There are a lot of ways you could envision this, it depends on where you are relative to everyone else.
If you insist on seeing binary as a spectrum, then non-binary would be a sphere that that line of a spectrum grazes through.
Such is the diversity of gender.
A binary spectrum works, if you need to gauge where you are if physically transitioning from somewhere to somewhere.
But it fails to take into account the diversity. You are never at a point along a line, you are a mixture of points along that line.
That mixture could be envisioned as a sphere of identity, rather than a single point on a line between two arbitrary things.
It depends on your relative vantage point of view.
I can't help but see that 'spectrum', that line as just something over there in a much larger sphere of identities that are not tied to it.
Doesn't mean it's not a way of looking at it, it is just one small way to envision gender.
We are taught to see gender as a binary, only because it is the simplest way to describe it.
Once you start to use individual descriptions, it doesn't suffice as a useful tool to describe the identity of a persons gender.
Which is why the use of labels with strict definitions just don't work.
Simple descriptions even beg to be expanded upon, and even then, how you interpret them depends on where you are interpreting them from.
Just simply being yourself is the best interpretation of them all. And we are all changing, all the time.
If you have locked yourself into a label, term or description of who you are, you become stagnant in not only your life, but in thought as well.
If you lock others into the same kind of thing, you doom them to be stagnant from your vantage point, as well.
Ativan

Hi there bornpurple!

One thing I am realising is that there is a difference between "Gender Identity" and "Gender Expression", and numerous levels within those. My identity is male, my expression is female, and my core being feels like I am more female than male. There are many influences and reasons why there is this intrigue mix and match.

I like how this particular forum pushes the boundaries and explores the expectations and experiences of gender. Its encouraging to see how many feel that they are a mixture, and are happy to accept this and find ways how to make it work in real-life, even when there might be resistance from not just cis-people, but from the binary trans community as well.

I myself feel like I'm made from odds and ends of genders, and after years of struggling internally with this, I'm now slowly making this work externally - both socially, and am now seeking to do this medically.
I do feel that one must pick-and-choose gender attributes in order to get the best "deal" from society and nature. Cis-women have been doing this now for years, and so its perfectly acceptability for have very feminine-looking women acting very-masculine and dressing very androgynous. Cis-males on the other-hand now have a positively archaic role and presentation in society. Even if they most males feel comfortable with that, its essentially pointless and they're missing out on becoming more well-rounded and balanced individuals as a result of their artificial ultra-binary masculinity.

With myself - I feel the need to physically look female in my face and skin, but I also feel a need to keep a pronounced androgyny to me. I'd be happy to be gendered as male socially, despite the potential of being assumed to be female, until I use my deep-voice to speak. I feel that continuing to be addressed as Mr would be provide the most social stability and security, plus there are lots of male traits within me and obviously male facial features. However with close friends, family and especially lovers - I'd prefer to be considered female or a positively feminine-male at the least.

Ultimately, I don't care if people see me as a man, as long as I can be the kind of "man" I want to be, and that "man" is a full-on mix of female and male physically and to a certain extent regarding my presentation as well. Interestingly, the more I explore my femininity and see myself more as female, the less I care about needing to wear overtly female clothes. I therefore increasingly realise that I'm essentially a female tomboy who occasionally likes to be girly and happens to enjoy many of the physical and social trappings of being overtly male.

So what would I be? Female or male androgyne? No idea :-p

But back to yourself, I see it as perfectly acceptable, but will perhaps take more explaining to do in order to convey what you want. The general argument by both cis-people and binary trans-people is - "why bother changing at all, if you essentially are 50/50 or wish to pick-and-choose?" Their argument to me is they don't understand why I'd both taking hormones if I still want to talk with my male voice, use my genitalia, and not care about being gendered as male. And my answer is simply "well that's how I've always felt who I am. Yep its confusing and it doesn't make sense. But that is simply who I am". And I guess you'll need the same cast-iron belief in yourself in order to stay true :-)

I live all male,
I don't feel Binary neither all that non-binary
I dont feel like im neither or both gender, at the same time I feel as human being we dont just have male or female in this world, so nobody would be 100% male or female. its not like I crossdress either however I think it ridiculours that female and male should be label ex by clothing so I somethimes do wear clothing who is consider for female.

What dose it make me femme-ftm andrgoryne binary who hate the genderoles or nonbinary. I guess it more up to one oneself what label or decribtion who feel good to use.
I usunally prefern transgender and inclusive.

you should also think for yourself what you like. Some people are often annoyed if your arnt "binary man/woman enough" or "non-binary/queer enough" I tend to get into those strugles. but f* that because you should define you, not other should define you.
-

It may sound kind of ridiculous, but basically whatever you can imagine can probably fall under the androgyne umbrella.  There are men (cis- or trans-) who may identify as male but don't conform to gender norms.  There are people who are genderfluid, and that can involve movement between neutral and male in particular.  Others can identify as a nonstandard gender but may tend to be masculine.  The first example may still be regarded as "male" at the core (the noun in the title), with androgynous (an adjective) pertaining to expression in the context of gender norms rather than identity, but an androgynous male's underlying attitudes towards the gender binary (thinking outside of society's box) tends to make them feel more comfortable here.

I don't think it'd be offensive. Many people are androgynous, but lean towards masculine or feminine. The whole point of gender identity is to make you more comfortable, so there's no problem with identifying as what you feel most comfortable with! 

I have been hinting at this for a long time now,...
The idea and predominance of transsexual as it is and has been,
has pushed a lot of people into thinking that they should fall into a category that's binary.
And that's just fine, it's up to the individual.
But in recent times, the idea and acceptance of non-binary has grown.
There are many people that have found they are more comfortable with this reality.
And it has become a gateway of sorts for those to use along the way to discovering they are indeed binary.

But there are more and more people coming out as non-binary, one way or another.
The growth has left it without the rules of conformity, and it probably doesn't need much anyways.
Just as more people are choosing to skip surgery in the realm of transsexuals.
And there are now many who feel comfortable with the idea of surgery, yet identify as non-binary.

The lines are blurred to the point of there not being a line anymore.
Which is just fine. The paths that have been defined and used are still there, always getting better, in fact.
But it does also open up a lot more possibilities for people.
Those possibilities are letting people out of their closets and give them a place to be who they want to be.

The ranks have grown. The typical has been redefined, but also leaving the defined intact.
I'm sure there is a better way of saying that, but the fact is, there is an acceptance that wasn't there not that long ago.
It is a very blurred area for those who aren't looking out from it, for those who are only looking in.
While labels and definitions are something that are hard to come by and are loose at best, it's still there.
I fully expect that there is going to be a better blending of definitions and groups will have a larger overlap in those definitions.

As society is learning to accept the 'LGB', they are becoming more aware that the 'T' was used and thrown under the bus.
As Trans*, there doesn't seem to be this political battle going on as much.
But there is some feelings that some should have to sit at the back of the bus.
There is an acceptance that's going on, that nobody needs to be told where to sit.
It strengthens the entire group of people who choose to be under the umbrella of Trans*
There is a movement going on underfoot that follows those lines of thinking.
There are some small issues that remain. But are easily fixed. The ongoing bathroom issues are one of them.
How do you designate that? It's simply fixed by neutral bathrooms. It won't be until society accepts what we already know.
There are other issues, but they are societies problems, not ours. But they put them on us.
The idea of Trans* becomes more complex when blending identities of binary and non-binary.
But the complexity can also be seen as a way to strengthen the group, overall.

Mixing identities of binary and non-binary? Why not? The arguments against are less than the arguments for.
It opens up possibilities that didn't exist in conversation not that long ago.
But look at us, talking and discussing it now.
Transgender as an umbrella is growing, and it is growing up.
It's confusing at times, but what a wonderful thing to see.
Nothing is being taken away from anyone, but there is a lot more being added.
The way I perceive it, is that there is an awareness that keeps us from being under the bus.
It's growing. Society is baffled, to be sure. But ultimately, there will be acceptance.
Society is fighting back in some awful ways, to be sure.
But it's a society that is losing it's acceptance of bigotry.
In MN, where I am, that group lost it's battle with a prison inmate.
Marriage equality became law just by changing the wording of marriage by taking out the reference to gender.
No BS, no special rights, just taking gender out of the equation.
Society is getting tired of those bigots. It's finding that acceptance of people isn't so bad.
Just like the acceptance we have as a group, of each other, right now.
We don't need to define gender as much as we need to just accept it.
Regardless of how it is defined.
It will define itself in due time, in it's own way. Time will tell.
It does get better. We always say that. This is one of the ways that it is.
It's getting better.
Ativan

Count me in the "not fond of labels" camp.  There are ways in which I'm "like a man" and others in which I'm more "like a woman," for most of the popular definitions of "man" and "woman" (though which is which varies.)  But, other than my body, which is unambiguously male, I don't really think of things in term of "masculine" or "feminine."  I'm just me, and I've been outside the herd for so long I don't really know any more what counts as what.  I not only don't feel like I have a "male" or "female" identity (or any kind of gender identity), I don't even understand what those mean.  At the risk of offending the totally trans people, I have no idea what it means to feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body."

What I know is:

• My body is pretty standard male (for better or worse.)  Haven't thought much about changing it (SRS or the like), but who knows?
  
• I have no use for any part of the "masculinity" thing.  I haven't found a "masculine" characteristic (that isn't equally appropriate for women) that was worth having.
  
• I have never felt comfortable in all- or mostly-male groups, despite trying many times.  My impression is that when you strip away the usual "male bonding" stuff -- "beer, fart-jokes, and misogyny" is the way I usually express it -- being male doesn't give men anything in common with other men.  It's like "bonding" with people who have the same last digit of their social security number.
  
• I feel more comfortable among women, even being the only man in a group of women.  (Whether they feel comfortable with me is another story.)  I feel like most women are reasonably willing to accept me for who I am, whereas I usually feel judged by men.
  
• I feel more comfortable and like myself when wearing what are usually called "women's clothes": dresses, skirts, even petticoats and frilly things.  My only discomfort with them is my fear that I'll be rejected for wearing them.
  
• While I don't feel like I'm a woman, I'd say that the role and life of a woman in our society would be a better fit for who I am than the life of a man.  If I were faced with just the two possibilities: be a more or less conventional woman, or be a more or less conventional man, and could freely chose, I think I'd go with being a woman.
  

So you could classify me as "male-bodied, female-leaning, genderless."

This topic and the responses, in particular Ativan's, blow me a way and comfort me greatly.  I just want to thank everyone for commenting.

I am reading through back history and am likely to resurrect old topics since truth never expires.

Many blessings to all.

I am still on limited access, healing is going well, and I am finally out of danger.

I underestimated what dysphoria can do to you mind if not managed well. 

More later, nothing to add here but thank you's.