A lot of effort has been put into maintaining certain "talking points" meant to promote social acceptance of trans identities. A problem occurs when storylines and theories that are aligned with the prefered trans narrative are pushed to the front while those that are problematic and "messy" are minimized or erased. Although this strategy seems to be working in the short term. Many governmental agencies, organizations and private sector businesses, in their sincere desire to embrace diversity, are looking to the trans community for assistance in how "gender" is to be codified.   This is all good up to a point. The problem is that most people have strong feelings about what "gender" means to them. You can't mandate someone's personal beliefs of what it means to be "truly" a man or truly a woman, although you can  provide information and real life interaction that, in some cases, will bring new understandings of gender to some individuals.  And we need to continue make and refine laws that do the best they can to ensure the safety and human rights of all people, trans and non trans, are respected and protected.  To get there we need to have a fair and open discussion that includes some of the "messy" stuff that many within the trans community work hard to bury.

Where I live (in California) we have a law that officially declares that sexual identity is completely separate from gender identity. A lot of very intelligent non trans people now repeat that as fact. For me I have only recently begun to accept that, in my case they are intertwined.  I am pretty confident that there are others who are afraid to look at this possibility for themselves because of the stigma  associated with this, in society and sadly within the trans community itself. As I have been switching over bank accounts and my identification to reclaim my original official gender designation I always ask if the person who is doing it if they have seen someone returning to their original gender status. I am always told yes and when I spoke to the California Department of Motor Vehicles office that handles gender change (they needed some additional documentation so I had to talk to the main office) the woman I spoke to said that she sees a lot of people going back now.

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition. Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out". The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning. I know it was hard for me to get to that point – especially since my original transition was my proudest accomplishment in life at that time. I worked hard for it. I knew though to move forward I had to let all of that go. My proudly earned "reward" bought through the losing of friends, the worries of my family, hours of painful procedures, surgery, thousands of hours of time, tens of thousands of dollars spent – I realized I didn't want it anymore.

What was maybe hardest of all to give up was the respect I had earned from people who knew what I went through during my transition to "be myself" and admired me for it.  These were the people, trans and non trans, that stuck with me and gave me the love and support and much of themselves to help me in my transition – I now had to go back to them and say something lame like "I'm just a guy after all". (Unlike the popular trans talking points that most non trans people know and understand these days there is no easy way to tell my story.)

I also think that a lot of transwomen have lost site of real and legitimate concerns of non trans women in regards to their own personal safety and psychological well being. I hate to admit this but I have to be honest— this is making me feel more and more uncomfortable being associated with the trans community. I don't define myself as a feminist but I can understand the reasons why there are many women (and this is not just restricted to feminists or radical feminists) who are sincerely uncomfortable with transwomen in female gendered spaces and this is something that we need to keep talking about and negotiating with all of the stakeholders in this conversation.

I see more and more transwomen defining their penis as a "female organ", yet these same people fail to empathize with natal women (hell even other transwomen for that matter) who are now expected to be ok with potentially seeing a fully erect penis in a women's  locker room . Right now a prominent "gender activist" is setting out to debunk a story that surfaced of such a thing happening. (The report appeared in a letter submitted to an advice column in Toronto.)  Even though it now appears that there really was a woman who filed a complaint about this incident to her local YMCA, a lot of LGBT media is still repeating the accusation that the columnist and his paper deliberately fabricated this letter as part of some dark "transmisogynistic" conspiracy, thus tarnishing the name and reputation of the  journalist and his paper.  Of course, we don't know exactly what happened in that locker room and we can't be certain that the woman's accusations are correct.  The columnist, in his original column recognized this and, after writing some respectful things about trans people, went on to say that IF what she was reporting was correct, this was extremely rare. He was emphatic in expressing his opinion that transwomen are women "full stop" and have the absolute right to be in that locker room but stated the obvious—that the behavior she was reporting, IF true, was unacceptable.

Human biology being what it is, something like this is eventually going to happen and at that point we are all going to need to have an honest conversation. (Another common talking point is that once a transwoman starts HRT  the penis itself shrinks and no longer can become erect. For some this is true – but for many others, well ... not so much.) You can only go on censoring these types of stories for so long. Some of them are going to be true so I don't see discussing an advice column discussing how to handle this in a way that is respectful to both trans and non trans people is something we need to censor.

The most troubling aspect of this now being dismissed as a "trans-hoax" is the fact that I can't rule out the possibility that there is a woman who experienced something traumatic and the fact that the experience is now being "erased" and ridiculed.  Until we are absolutely sure this woman is "fictional" why would someone want to risk the possibility of victimizing a woman a second time?  How can anyone be ok with that?  Why would someone be comfortable risking doing that to someone?

I know that I am focusing on transwomen in this post but there is a reason for that. Being a pre-op/non-op transwoman being completely nude and visible in a women's locker room is fundamentally different than a pre-op/non-op transman in a men's. This is something that can't be legislated.  I am fairly certain that a naked and exposed pre-op/non-op transman in a men's locker room is likely to be worried about getting raped by the other men around him.  I don't think that the transwoman has the same concerns (although she might risk getting beaten up.)  It is important for me to add that I think that the majority of pre-op/non-op transwomen would be horrified to be seen by other women this way and are "modest"  and respectful enough to avoid these situations.  But when transwomen make the argument that they are no different in any significant way from a natal woman or that a transman is exactly the same thing as a natal man I have to challenge that.

I still identify as trans. I don't really have a choice.  My history is trans. My evolution is trans.   When I meet someone I never know if I am going to get "sirred" or "ma'amed" because of the mixed gender cues my body gives them. I am reluctantly once again taking the first steps down the path of surgical  and hormonal intervention (even though I am tired of changing my body) to help me provide  people with more queues that I wish to be recognized as male so I feel I have a legitimate stake in this discussion.  It is popular right now to talk about how trans people are "invisible" to society and communities, meaning that their needs are never taken into consideration by others. A noted trans activist has written a book called "Excluded" about this phenomenon within a specific community.   If it were only me and my trans experience that was being erased I would probably just say "f*** it" and go it alone.  But I can't help but think back to my experience with the DMV and the fact that I know there are other people out there detransitioning.  Right now they are "invisible" but  I know they are out there and they probably need some place to talk about this. I am starting to hear some of the voices of those who feel  too intimidated to talk about some of the more "messy" issues associated with trans identity, the ones that don't fit comfortably within the prefered storyline.  They need to see more people openly talking about this stuff in a way that is affirming of their own identities and beliefs.  So that is why I continue to encourage others to talk about these issues in a way that is honest yet mindful of the importance of protecting the safety of  members of the trans community and the larger community all of us people are a part of.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition. Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out". The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning.t

This is so true! I've met several MTF whose gender shifted....after being 5, 10 or even 20 years post SRS.

The problem is.....is openly admitting this can make  'fresh' MTF uncertain about their very own (future) decisions and can affect their very ID.

When 'one on one'  some post op MTF tell me something different from what they write online on TS forums...

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 03:57:26 AM
ThePhoenix - I am going to post my response to your earlier question about why I am "skeptical" about some aspects of the traditional trans "talking points" as I originally intended, in this forum. It will follow this post.  A moderator reviewed has it and gave me the greenlight.  I also let them know that I understand if they re-evaluate their decision.  I appreciate Susan's.org being willing to try this out.

I'm glad they gave you the green light.  I would be surprised and disappointed if they changed the decision.  My only (very minor) quibble would be that it might have made more sense to make a new thread.

My only concern is that there might be a negative reaction from some people and that might dissuade you from candor later.  But you also may be surprised.  There are quite a few trans* spectrum individuals out there who appreciate it when someone speaks truth.  Even unpopular truths sometimes draw a reaction like "I've been wishing someone would say that!"

It's sort of my thing to try and make the trans* community a mor inclusive space.  I often very explicitly acknowledge that part of my "job" as a community organizer and activist is teaching cis people about trans* people.  Something  I'm less willing to say is that it also involves teaching trans* people about trans* people.  Usually without them knowing that I'm doing it.  So I am no moderator, and I won't try to moderate anything (I spend enough time doing that offline).  But I am a person who totally supports you being in the space.  Heavens, you sound like you might be one of the few people who grasps that some of my posts have a slightly different meaning from that given to them by most transmen and transwomen, so I would appreciate having someone around who "gets it!"

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
A lot of effort has been put into maintaining certain "talking points" meant to promote social acceptance of trans identities. A problem occurs when storylines and theories that are aligned with the prefered trans narrative are pushed to the front while those that are problematic and "messy" are minimized or erased. Although this strategy seems to be working in the short term. Many governmental agencies, organizations and private sector businesses, in their sincere desire to embrace diversity, are looking to the trans community for assistance in how "gender" is to be codified.   This is all good up to a point. The problem is that most people have strong feelings about what "gender" means to them. You can't mandate someone's personal beliefs of what it means to be "truly" a man or truly a woman, although you can  provide information and real life interaction that, in some cases, will bring new understandings of gender to some individuals.  And we need to continue make and refine laws that do the best they can to ensure the safety and human rights of all people, trans and non trans, are respected and protected.  To get there we need to have a fair and open discussion that includes some of the "messy" stuff that many within the trans community work hard to bury.

Trans* activists often bury the reality of anyone other than a classic 1990s vintage binary trans* person.  I suspect part if the reason is generational--most advocates seem to be older.  When they were coming up, there was no such thing as a non-binary, genderqueer identity.  That's interesting to me because I suspect the difference between many binary trans* people and many genderqueer people is one of age, not identity.  Most trans* people who identify themselves as binary do not seem to express themselves in a remotely binary way.  Of course I cannot know what is in someone's head, but the expression of identity being non-binary makes me wonder if the identity is really so binary after all.  But advocating to the public, or to politicians, or even to trans* people about non-binary identities tends to make people's heads explode.  So the easy thing to do is bury them.  Some activists will even be pretty candid and expressly state that.  The problem with that is it does tend to erase and exclude people, and it does tend to conflict with reality. 

Then there is the discussion of retransition.  The idea of "what if you change your mind?" is often used against trans* people to try and make trans* identities less real, less sincere, and more frivolous.  But reality is often a lot less clean cut than people like.  Some people are going to go through transition a second time.  Personally, I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it captures the reality that some people even go through transition more than twice.  This can happen for many reasons.  The genderqueer community has taught us that there is such a thing as gender fluidity, for example, when a person's gender identity shifts over time.  A person's transitional status could also shift to follow that identity.  There is a classic "failed transition" narrative too where a person finds that they could not live in the new gender role so they went back.  I could go on, but this post will be long enough as it is and I trust that my point--that there are many reasons why a person might find themselves on the transition road more than once. 

The reality of multiple transitions is something that also scares the public and the politicians in much the same way that non-binary identities do.  It implies that the boy and girl boxes are not static and a person might not simply move from one box to another and then stay there.  But by failing to discuss that issue, the community does a disservice to its members.  It leaves those who will one day be on the road a second (or more) time out of the discussion.  It also fails to present a complete picture of the palette of options out there.  And it is perhaps less than honest with itself.  My way of describing my own identity is simple:  this works for me now, so I go with it, but I do not presume to know what will happen in the future.  I think that's honest and real. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Where I live (in California) we have a law that officially declares that sexual identity is completely separate from gender identity.

I don't understand this statement.  I've never heard of such a law.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
A lot of very intelligent non trans people now repeat that as fact. For me I have only recently begun to accept that, in my case they are intertwined.  I am pretty confident that there are others who are afraid to look at this possibility for themselves because of the stigma  associated with this, in society and sadly within the trans community itself. As I have been switching over bank accounts and my identification to reclaim my original official gender designation I always ask if the person who is doing it if they have seen someone returning to their original gender status. I am always told yes and when I spoke to the California Department of Motor Vehicles office that handles gender change (they needed some additional documentation so I had to talk to the main office) the woman I spoke to said that she sees a lot of people going back now.

And yet I keep seeing stats and cute little sharable infographics that drastically under-report or ignore the number of people who do detransition/retransition.

The only statistics on retransition that I am aware of coke from follow-up studies of trans* people conducted some years after SRS.  These studies do report very low rates of dissatisfaction and retransition.  But they also suffer from some problems.  One is the fact that they only count those who have gone through SRS, but SRS is unavailable to many trans* people.  As a consequence, they are only studying a small part of the trans* community and the results are likely not representative of the community as a whole.  Another is the difficulty in tracking people.  They tend to disappear.  So a large portion of the data tends to be "unknown". Of course if it is unknown, then we don't know what the result is and cannot make a good assumption about it.

To me, this makes it difficult to know how many people go back their assigned-at-birth gender.  Do you have any other info?

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Those who detransition/retransition, if they are mentioned at all, are almost an afterthought and often dismissed as people who weren't strong enough to 'tough it out".

Many people do think this way, but not all do. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
The possibligy that these people's personal definition of gender might have shifted after going through the original transition is not something that many people want to hear about. I can't help but wonder if some people are too ashamed to even think about retransitioning. I know it was hard for me to get to that point – especially since my original transition was my proudest accomplishment in life at that time. I worked hard for it. I knew though to move forward I had to let all of that go.

I wonder the same thing.  If coming out takes a lot of courage, then coming out as wrong about coming out takes even more.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
My proudly earned "reward" bought through the losing of friends, the worries of my family, hours of painful procedures, surgery, thousands of hours of time, tens of thousands of dollars spent – I realized I didn't want it anymore.

This shouldn't be hard for people to understand.  Any time people invest tons of time, resources, energy, and emotion into something, it becomes like a part of you.  It can be hard to give up. 

Here is a totally non-trans* related example in my own life:  I am a lawyer.  I invested over $100,000 in my education.  I went to school for three years and practiced for about ten.  I was very proud of it.  I made it a part if who I was.  But coming out as trans* in my profession destroyed that.  I'll probably never get it back, but yet I cannot stop trying.  I have friends urging me to go into the foreign service instead.  They make sure I get a chance to practice what it would be like (just yesterday, for example, I was a speaker and dialogue participant for a delegation of Central and South American LGBT activists).  I'm having a wonderful time being a diplomat of sorts.  But it takes a piece out of me to give up being a lawyer.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
What was maybe hardest of all to give up was the respect I had earned from people who knew what I went through during my transition to "be myself" and admired me for it.  These were the people, trans and non trans, that stuck with me and gave me the love and support and much of themselves to help me in my transition – I now had to go back to them and say something lame like "I'm just a guy after all".

I would hope that at least some of them would grasp how much courage that took.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
(Unlike the popular trans talking points that most non trans people know and understand these days there is no easy way to tell my story.)

I for one would be interested in hearing whatever you wanted to share of it.  I hope that others would share that sentiment.  But there's no pressure.  Not everyone wants to share their stories (I don't like telling mine).

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I also think that a lot of transwomen have lost site of real and legitimate concerns of non trans women in regards to their own personal safety and psychological well being. I hate to admit this but I have to be honest— this is making me feel more and more uncomfortable being associated with the trans community. I don't define myself as a feminist but I can understand the reasons why there are many women (and this is not just restricted to feminists or radical feminists) who are sincerely uncomfortable with transwomen in female gendered spaces and this is something that we need to keep talking about and negotiating with all of the stakeholders in this conversation.

I agree that the feeling unsafe is real.  I'm not so sure I agree that it is legitimate.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I see more and more transwomen defining their penis as a "female organ", yet these same people fail to empathize with natal women (hell even other transwomen for that matter) who are now expected to be ok with potentially seeing a fully erect penis in a women's  locker room .

Who is expecting women to be okay with this?  I'm sure there might be a fringe element out there that this this, but I have not heard this view espoused.  Certainly not by anyone credible. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Right now a prominent "gender activist" is setting out to debunk a story that surfaced of such a thing happening. (The report appeared in a letter submitted to an advice column in Toronto.)  Even though it now appears that there really was a woman who filed a complaint about this incident to her local YMCA, a lot of LGBT media is still repeating the accusation that the columnist and his paper deliberately fabricated this letter as part of some dark "transmisogynistic" conspiracy, thus tarnishing the name and reputation of the  journalist and his paper.  Of course, we don't know exactly what happened in that locker room and we can't be certain that the woman's accusations are correct. 

I don't think transadvocate.com is a particularly reliable source, but it is true that people make up stories like this to tar trans* people.  I think that's just a reality.  But I don't recall seeing anyone arguing that the paper made up the story.  The accusation leveled at the paper seems to be that they did a lousy job of fact checking.  There's a huge difference between that and inventing the story. 

The woman, on the other hand, is accused of story invention.  That accusation might be true.  It might not.  I don't know for sure.  But I think it's a reality that people do invent stories to make trans* people look bad.  Media needs to deal with this reality and be wary of it.  It's also a reality that some trans* people behave badly and there are stupid kids who try to exploit gender identity protections.  Trans* advocates need to stop trying to distract from this issue and start dealing with it honestly.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
The columnist, in his original column recognized this and, after writing some respectful things about trans people, went on to say that IF what she was reporting was correct, this was extremely rare. He was emphatic in expressing his opinion that transwomen are women "full stop" and have the absolute right to be in that locker room but stated the obvious—that the behavior she was reporting, IF true, was unacceptable.

I think I basically agree with this.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
Human biology being what it is, something like this is eventually going to happen and at that point we are all going to need to have an honest conversation. (Another common talking point is that once a transwoman starts HRT  the penis itself shrinks and no longer can become erect. For some this is true – but for many others, well ... not so much.)

As a person who has repeatedly been asked about "tucking" and responded with advice on shirts, I am probably not the best person to opine on these biological observations.  But I agree about the need to get honest about this sort iPod thing and address it in a more real and thoughtful way.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
You can only go on censoring these types of stories for so long. Some of them are going to be true so I don't see discussing an advice column discussing how to handle this in a way that is respectful to both trans and non trans people is something we need to censor.

The most troubling aspect of this now being dismissed as a "trans-hoax" is the fact that I can't rule out the possibility that there is a woman who experienced something traumatic and the fact that the experience is now being "erased" and ridiculed.  Until we are absolutely sure this woman is "fictional" why would someone want to risk the possibility of victimizing a woman a second time?  How can anyone be ok with that?  Why would someone be comfortable risking doing that to someone?

I don't think that questioning the veracity of a story is the same as retraumatizing them again.  If a person publicizes a story, then it is fair game to tell the other side of the story, ask questions, or contradict the story.  I do not believe there is a moral obligation to accept every story without question merely because it might be traumatic.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I know that I am focusing on transwomen in this post but there is a reason for that. Being a pre-op/non-op transwoman being completely nude and visible in a women's locker room is fundamentally different than a pre-op/non-op transman in a men's. This is something that can't be legislated.  I am fairly certain that a naked and exposed pre-op/non-op transman in a men's locker room is likely to be worried about getting raped by the other men around him.  I don't think that the transwoman has the same concerns (although she might risk getting beaten up.)  It is important for me to add that I think that the majority of pre-op/non-op transwomen would be horrified to be seen by other women this way and are "modest"  and respectful enough to avoid these situations.  But when transwomen make the argument that they are no different in any significant way from a natal woman or that a transman is exactly the same thing as a natal man I have to challenge that.

See my post in the thread "trans* people are not cispeople."  I don't know how to link to it or I would.  But the bottom line is that I agree that being a transwoman or a transman is not the same as being a ciswoman or a cisman.  It is kind of delusional to say that it is exactly the same.  But we have seen that people, even on this forum, protest that it is triggering and traumatic to have someone say so.  So this makes a good example of my point above about ideas and conversations that may be traumatic.

I should, however, pause and observe that I still think your idea of a retransition (I'd prefer multiple transition) forum with a trigger warning is still a good idea, in my opinion.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I still identify as trans. I don't really have a choice.  My history is trans. My evolution is trans.   When I meet someone I never know if I am going to get "sirred" or "ma'amed" because of the mixed gender cues my body gives them.

Welcome to my life.  I have been thinking about that a bunch lately.  If you look at my fingers, you would see that my ring finger and index finger are very close to the same size, which is supposed to be a biological female trait.  But you would also see that my knuckles are very developed and kind of big, which is supposedly a biological male trait.  That's just my fingers.  My whole skeletal structure is a mixed up jumble like that.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I am reluctantly once again taking the first steps down the path of surgical  and hormonal intervention (even though I am tired of changing my body) to help me provide  people with more queues that I wish to be recognized as male so I feel I have a legitimate stake in this discussion. 

I'd say you had a legitimate stake even if you were not currently doing this.

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
It is popular right now to talk about how trans people are "invisible" to society and communities, meaning that their needs are never taken into consideration by others. A noted trans activist has written a book called "Excluded" about this phenomenon within a specific community.   If it were only me and my trans experience that was being erased I would probably just say "f*** it" and go it alone.  But I can't help but think back to my experience with the DMV and the fact that I know there are other people out there detransitioning.  Right now they are "invisible" but  I know they are out there and they probably need some place to talk about this.

I agree 110%.  And I think your website is fabulous.  So how can we create a safe space to talk about it? 

At risk of making myself too obvious, you may have noticed that I am trying to draw you out and get you talking here.  And I'm also doing what I can to have your back and try to make it safe for you to do so. 

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM
I am starting to hear some of the voices of those who feel  too intimidated to talk about some of the more "messy" issues associated with trans identity, the ones that don't fit comfortably within the prefered storyline.  They need to see more people openly talking about this stuff in a way that is affirming of their own identities and beliefs.  So that is why I continue to encourage others to talk about these issues in a way that is honest yet mindful of the importance of protecting the safety of  members of the trans community and the larger community all of us people are a part of.

And I think that is a laudable goal.  It is very much in line with my goals.  I hope that trans* people of all stripes will become better at discussing these issues without feeling threatened.  After all, every category or type of trans* person seems to want that from the larger community.  The least we can do is give it to one another.

So I for one am thankful that you shared this.  I hope that all will accept it and embrace it in the spirit with which it is offered.  I also hope this will not be the last time you share a controversial honest thought.

Suggestion: Put a sticky note warning on the top saying that this subforums can contain topic that are deemed 'controversial' or uncomfortable truth ?

Quote from: bingunginter on January 28, 2014, 09:55:15 AM
Suggestion: Put a sticky note warning on the top saying that this subforums can contain topic that are deemed 'controversial' or uncomfortable truth ?

Well . . . Maybe.  The thing is, what is so controversial or uncomfortable about someone not transitioning?  This seems like another reason that separate forum for the re/de/multiple transition topic.

QuoteWell . . . Maybe.  The thing is, what is so controversial or uncomfortable about someone not transitioning?

Well, mine is not about not transitioning. My thread for my non-standard trans narrative and why I have detransition thought has been deemed not allowed.
I agree, It shouldn't be controversial or uncomfortable to talk about this.

I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 28, 2014, 07:17:03 AM
This is so true! I've met several MTF whose gender shifted....after being 5, 10 or even 20 years post SRS.

The problem is.....is openly admitting this can make  'fresh' MTF uncertain about their very own (future) decisions and can affect their very ID.

When 'one on one'  some post op MTF tell me something different from what they write online on TS forums...

I agree it is a difficult line to walk. And people do often share slightly different stories one on one, and I think that is somewhat understandable given the current climate. I think the main guiding principle when talking to tg youth or adults just beginning to explore how their own gendered identity is letting people know that it is ok to feel whatever they are feeling:They are not freaks! I think trying to persuade someone not to make a decision is not appropriate nor helpful.  But I think for all of us who have dealt with GID in our lives, HONESTLY and OPENLY sharing our experiences and thoughts is helpful to other trans* aligned people, no matter what point they are on this journey. 

Quote from: bingunginter on January 28, 2014, 03:17:56 PM
Well, mine is not about not transitioning. My thread for my non-standard trans narrative and why I have detransition thought has been deemed not allowed.
I agree, It shouldn't be controversial or uncomfortable to talk about this.

I agree too. And I think the subject you are mentioning is something that we need to be ok talking about. Sadly, non trans people and even trusted researchers have used this "model" to further marginalize transwomen. It has also been presented in a way that dehumanizes and delegitimizes the experiences of many transwomen.  All of that being said, I think that the phenomenon that that model attempts to describe does exist, although they may or may not have nailed down exactly what it is.  I didn't want to even look at this in myself, but I think that to some degree my gender identity evolved in part and possibly totally as a response to an eroticized perception of who I WANTED to be, not necessarily who I was. Thinking of this became an "escape" from problems in my life.  It was my way of coping with life. And it became my identity. Although I eventually came to truly believe I had a female gender identity, I have now come to understand it as something different. My base gender identity is male and at last I feel that is pretty stable.  For me the big change is that I actually came to realization that I had not been "born in the wrong body".  I now know I was born in the RIGHT body. I very much am excited to be male and have future plans for myself as a male that I want to see come to reality. Still I have to be realistic.  I have had "desire" to be female in the past and that could return.  This leads me to looking again at some aspects of the model I described earlier and figure out what parts of it work for me.  Some of the writings associated with that theory speak truths to my experience. It would be nice to have a conversation about this stuff that was detached from self-shaming or judgements or denials of other people's realities.

QuoteI'm glad they gave you the green light.  I would be surprised and disappointed if they changed the decision.  My only (very minor) quibble would be that it might have made more sense to make a new thread.

I deliberated whether or not to start a new thread. I guess it was my nervousness about a negative reaction that wanted me to keep it a little bit "buried" in here.  I am going to reply to your other post later today or tomorrow - you covered a lot of ground and I have some thoughts.  I will probably break one of my replies off into a new thread about an issue you got me thinking about.

Quote
It's sort of my thing to try and make the trans* community a mor inclusive space.  I often very explicitly acknowledge that part of my "job" as a community organizer and activist is teaching cis people about trans* people.  Something  I'm less willing to say is that it also involves teaching trans* people about trans* people.  Usually without them knowing that I'm doing it.  So I am no moderator, and I won't try to moderate anything (I spend enough time doing that offline).  But I am a person who totally supports you being in the space.  Heavens, you sound like you might be one of the few people who grasps that some of my posts have a slightly different meaning from that given to them by most transmen and transwomen, so I would appreciate having someone around who "gets it!"

:-) Yay and thank you. More later.

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

I think this is a pretty cool attitude. Being ok with who you are and not being too hung up on worrying about who others think you are (or are not).

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

I relate to The Post-Trans-Rebel's comments. Twenty years ago I was balls out MtF (no pun intended) then I de-transitioned for two years. Uh - being a eunuch medically speaking, be advised not to go without any sex hormones for an extended time because one gets very sickly, so I went back on HRT. However gender ID isn't the least bit important to me any longer and I don't waste my time and get all emotional over-thnking about it. Androgyny is a fine place to wind up really as all the internal pressures are gone and whatever society says is becoming more accepting every day with an attitude of it is what it is.

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on January 28, 2014, 03:51:22 PM
I don't see anything terribly controversial about not transitioning, detransitioning or retransitioning. I can unserstand why some might find it uncomfortable subject though.

I do think the gender binary is a little oversubscribed and I wonder how many people are out there like me - I claim the label woman, mostly because it's easier. I'm mostly a woman, but there are more than a few elements of who I am that continue to be decidedly mannish. I'm not all that worried about it. It makes me fairly similar to some of my cis friends.

Really enjoying the discussion.  I have never been comfortable with a rigid, binary based taxonomy. I grow, I shrink, I embrace, I resile ... While being non binary, androgyne or gender fluid may make most folk uncomfortable I am good with it and I need to own my life, my presentation and my reality.  Susan's has been a godsend and I am delighted by the growing diversity of our family. 

btw I'm finally able to be able to share my story at other trans forum. Damn that feels good.

Five years ago when I came to Susan's it was because my GD (GID at the time) was resurfacing.  I detransitioned in 2002 after transitioning and living as female for 3 years.  I was 21 at the time I detransitioned.

Back then I felt like I was the only one here at Susan's - but the staff were always kind to me.  Sure I ruffled feathers with my own observations about what you refer to as "the narrative" but by and large I felt respected.  My dysphoria never left though, but I was able to effectively manage it through taking estrogen.

When I turned 30, I was diagnosed with a rare blood condition preventing me from taking hormones of any sort.  Having had an orchi previously - this proved disastrous for my body and my dysphoria rages off and on even today.

Looking back on it now, knowing what I know now, I'd have stayed female.  I really was happier, but I was too young and without guidance.  I trod my path alone, and unfortunately, strayed considerably based on assumptions I would later learn were not true.  Even though I say this now, I don't believe I will ever transition back though.  I have built a life and to transition would be like starting over again.  I do my best to manage the dysphoria and am very active in my trans community as an activist.  I also am out, like VERY out which helps too.

If in the end though my dysphoria becomes too great to manage, I will likely transition to some degree, but I'm not there yet - and hopefully never will be.

Kate

I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after t you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it reflects that not everyone goes through transition once (a transitioner) or twice (a de/retransitioner).  The most frequent transitioner I've ever heard of or encountered was someone who switched directions every year on the same day.  On the anniversary of beginning transition, this person would begin transitioning again in the opposite direction.

Some writers have suggested that many people who retransition do so because they have non-binary identities and they eventually find their peace in an in-between space.  I'm not sure I believe that.  Words like many and most are hard to evaluate when there is (at least to my knowledge) no statistical or other reliable information out there.  But I do believe that some people are probably moved to go back through transition at least part way by having non-binary identities that were not recognized and understood in earlier times.   Kate Bornstein, for example, writes about this in Gender Outlaw--she transitioned at a time when not identifying as male meant that one was understood to identify as a woman.  But she considers herself to be a nonbinary person rather than truly identifying as a woman.  It would be easy to imagine her going back at least part way in her transition. 

It's hard to make generalizations about retransition.  LGBT people are a minority in the larger community, T people are a small minority of LGBT people, and retransitioners are (at least seemingly) a small minority within T circles.  There is limited reliable information on T people and none at all that I know of about retransitioners (I explained why I say that elsewhere in this thread). 

In a way maybe that's a good thing.  Without those generalizations, it is harder to create stereotypes.  And without stereotypes, we really do have to take people at face value without all the assumptions we might otherwise make.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2014, 09:08:56 AM
I prefer the term "multiple transition" because it reflects that not everyone goes through transition once (a transitioner) or twice (a de/retransitioner).  The most frequent transitioner I've ever heard of or encountered was someone who switched directions every year on the same day.  On the anniversary of beginning transition, this person would begin transitioning again in the opposite direction.

Some writers have suggested that many people who retransition do so because they have non-binary identities and they eventually find their peace in an in-between space.  I'm not sure I believe that.  Words like many and most are hard to evaluate when there is (at least to my knowledge) no statistical or other reliable information out there.  But I do believe that some people are probably moved to go back through transition at least part way by having non-binary identities that were not recognized and understood in earlier times.   Kate Bornstein, for example, writes about this in Gender Outlaw--she transitioned at a time when not identifying as male meant that one was understood to identify as a woman.  But she considers herself to be a nonbinary person rather than truly identifying as a woman.  It would be easy to imagine her going back at least part way in her transition. 

It's hard to make generalizations about retransition.  LGBT people are a minority in the larger community, T people are a small minority of LGBT people, and retransitioners are (at least seemingly) a small minority within T circles.  There is limited reliable information on T people and none at all that I know of about retransitioners (I explained why I say that elsewhere in this thread). 

In a way maybe that's a good thing.  Without those generalizations, it is harder to create stereotypes.  And without stereotypes, we really do have to take people at face value without all the assumptions we might otherwise make.

I wonder how many non binary people transition because society expects you to be male or female? I know for me if I found myself in a position were my identity switched I would probably just be a masculine woman I couldn't put everybody I know through a second transition.

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 09:29:40 AM
I wonder how many non binary people transition because society expects you to be male or female? I know for me if I found myself in a position were my identity switched I would probably just be a masculine woman I couldn't put everybody I know through a second transition.

My personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.  But because one is conditioned to think in binary terms and even many trans* people do not understand/accept non-binary identities, they say that they identify as one or the other side of the binary.

I say this because of how common it is to entercounter extremely masculine-expressing transwomen and much more feminine-expressing transmen.  I've written in other threads about how I find myself on this journey largely because of my inability to function socially as a seemingly male person and the pain it caused me.  Interacting with transwomen who expect me to share their same history is often a repetition of that same scenario.  It's back to trying to speak Swahili, trying to discuss things I'm clueless about, and back to just being unable to function because they are trying to interact with me in much the same way that men interact with other men.  But yet so many of them seem perfectly comfortable socializing like a group of men would socialize just as long as they are able to wear women's clothes, be called "she," and develop female physical traits.  So many don't even seem interested in how women experience the world.  They say they are being very binary . . . But isn't that a very mixed expression of gender?  Isn't it actually a very non-binary gender expression? 

I guess this is a long way of saying that I too wonder how many transition in a binary way because society expects one to be either male or female . . . And I don't know, but it would not surprise me if that were actually the majority of trans* people. 

Okay . . . I just said some things that are honest but likely controversial.  Let's please discuss this politely.