I saw a film recently entitled "Rush" that I thought was analogous  to what I have personally observed and experienced concerning the TG drive to transitioning. Rush is a 2013 British-German biographical sports drama film directed by Ron Howard and written by Peter Morgan about the 1976 Formula One season and the rivalry between drivers James Hunt and Niki Lauda. It stars Chris Hemsworth as Hunt and Daniel Brühl as Lauda.

James Hunt on the one hand portrayed an individual that was completely obsessed with racing and becoming the world champion. He married a beautiful woman but managed to trash that marriage and every other relationship in the process. I have observed this trait in so many of us driven by dysphoria and GID issues that we charge ahead and view the advice and concerns of others as obstructionism, and those who offer it as the enemy of our will to succeed. We are often drawn into the company of like minded thinkers and thus we form a group-think alliance which becomes all powerful enhanced by the effects of hormones.

Niki Lauda on the other hand was a planner, with little to no racing experience, who thought his way through every facet of the car, of being the driver and what it required to succeed. He was as thoughtful as an engineer, cold and calculating he manipulated everyone to achieve his goals and went about it step by step. He even experienced a horrific crash and fire only to emerge all the more determined as he watched the successes of James Hunt from his hospital bed. Sometimes we are overcome with similar setbacks and though we are pleased for those who are making such strides as the beautiful men and women in the photo threads we feel all the more driven to succeed.

The last race for the world championship was between Niki Lauda and James Hunt It was raining and the track was dangerous as it had been when Niki had crashed. Following the first lap when Niki was ahead the sad eyed face of his lovely wife came flooding into his mind and at that moment Niki's priorities in life took a 180 degree turn and he drove into the pits and gave up the race in favor of something much greater. Which brings to mind the saying, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his life?" These are my thoughts about how I came feel about myself and my own situation as a type of Niki Lauda, it's not intended to be a generalization about others although i know there are some who share these same feelings about themselves. And perhaps this helps to explain why some have a kind of epiphany and cease transition mid-stream, some even de-transitioning.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 01, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
My personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.  But because one is conditioned to think in binary terms and even many trans* people do not understand/accept non-binary identities, they say that they identify as one or the other side of the binary.

I say this because of how common it is to entercounter extremely masculine-expressing transwomen and much more feminine-expressing transmen.  I've written in other threads about how I find myself on this journey largely because of my inability to function socially as a seemingly male person and the pain it caused me.  Interacting with transwomen who expect me to share their same history is often a repetition of that same scenario.  It's back to trying to speak Swahili, trying to discuss things I'm clueless about, and back to just being unable to function because they are trying to interact with me in much the same way that men interact with other men.  But yet so many of them seem perfectly comfortable socializing like a group of men would socialize just as long as they are able to wear women's clothes, be called "she," and develop female physical traits.  So many don't even seem interested in how women experience the world.  They say they are being very binary . . . But isn't that a very mixed expression of gender?  Isn't it actually a very non-binary gender expression? 

I guess this is a long way of saying that I too wonder how many transition in a binary way because society expects one to be either male or female . . . And I don't know, but it would not surprise me if that were actually the majority of trans* people. 

Okay . . . I just said some things that are honest but likely controversial.  Let's please discuss this politely.

Don't worry I don't come on here to argue. You actually bring up some very valid points I've noticed myself.
Actually I think society has a lot to do with this and that the belief you aren't really a man unless your into sports and sleeping with a bunch of women. And your not really a woman if your not married and not wanting kids. I think very few people are truly binary altogether and most of what we know of male and female is society based instead of biologically based.
I believe it's alright for a male to be feminine and a woman to be masculine without it meaning they should transition. I think society needs to further explore what gender and gender expression truly is instead of trying to fit people into just two categories and saying you must act this way.
Now I can't say for sure that I'm completely binary with certainty and at times I have suspected I'm bi gender or intersex. But I say I feel more comfortable as a living and socializing as a woman than I ever did trying to live as a male so that's all that matters to me.

QuoteMy personal suspicion is that binary gender identities are rather rare among trans* people.  I suspect that most people who say they identify as male or female actually are not actually so binary.

So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

My view is everyone falls somewhere on a continuum, most are very close to their physical gender and thus don't notice. Stray too far and you find yourself here. 

Quote from: Ahn A. Sabbatical on February 01, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

I may be misreading the question too . . . But I was only commenting on trans* people and binary identity.  I did not intend to say anything at all about cisgender people or bigender identity (which is one kind of non-binary identity).

Quote from: Shantel on February 01, 2014, 11:38:59 AM
James Hunt on the one hand portrayed an individual that was completely obsessed with racing and becoming the world champion. He married a beautiful woman but managed to trash that marriage and every other relationship in the process. I have observed this trait in so many of us driven by dysphoria and GID issues that we charge ahead and view the advice and concerns of others as obstructionism, and those who offer it as the enemy of our will to succeed. We are often drawn into the company of like minded thinkers and thus we form a group-think alliance which becomes all powerful enhanced by the effects of hormones.

I have noticed this too and it is always troubling.  Going through transition requires a lot of self-focus that can prevent you from being truly "present" for the people in your life. If you are going through a transition you need remember that it isn't always all about you all the time. The people around you matter. Sadly, this is often forgotten, especially when there is so much encouragement within the trans community to not let friends and family get in the way of "being who you need to be". When I started my transition in the mid 90s I came across a number of transwomen in the early stages of transition who were apparently ok being "deadbeat dads", their justification being that their financial responsibilities to their former spouses and children were getting in the way of them being who they needed to be. (I will add that these people certainly did not make up a large percentage of the transwomen I encountered back in those days but there were enough of them for me to see that it was a recognizable pattern for some.) 

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 08:39:38 AM
I've been lurking on this thread I'll admit and not because I'm thinking of de/retransitioning I'm just curious and I wanted to understand why people de/retransition. But I did have a question that I have been wondering for the past few days. What happens if your gender shifts back again after you de/retransition maybe you were gender fluid to begin with and maybe neither gender is the right choice?

ThePhoenix is right when saying that it is often a case of "multiple transition" or, as I like to say, all part of one long transition called "life".  I think we are always in a state of "becoming ourselves" but sometimes we become afraid to let ourselves accept this.  You are right - some people find themselves in a place where they no longer identify as any gender.  Some people may decide that, after going back to their birth gender, they are more certain than ever that they need to get back to the gender they transitioned to the first time.  We all have different paths.  I don't know where mine is heading but I am always curious about what is around the next bend.

Quote from: Heather on February 01, 2014, 11:45:07 AMI think very few people are truly binary altogether and most of what we know of male and female is society based instead of biologically based.

I think the gender binary has its origin in biology and is a mechanism to keep our species propagating.  As our society has evolved it is becoming less important with every passing day.  I think most (though not all) of the attributes that make up "gender" have lost their biological necessity and are now a conscious choice we make, either as individuals or a society. It is largely kabuki theater and as far as that goes I think that men and women should have the freedom to participate (or not participate) in a manner of their own choosing. All of that being said, I think some aspects of gender are still important and biologically necessary.

Quote from: retransition on February 01, 2014, 09:32:52 PM
I think the gender binary has its origin in biology and is a mechanism to keep our species propagating.  As our society has evolved it is becoming less important with every passing day.  I think most (though not all) of the attributes that make up "gender" have lost their biological necessity and are now a conscious choice we make, either as individuals or a society.

Exactly what I've been thinking too.

QuoteAll of that being said, I think some aspects of gender are still important and biologically necessary.

Besides the obvious ones, what aspects of gender are still important in your opinion?

"Multiple Transition" really puts a whole new perspective on the "You're just going through a phase" line

Maybe some of us ARE just going through a phase. Shouldn't that be ok? Does society need us to pick one gender or the other and stick with it? Do some of us force ourselves into behaviors that are uncomfortable in order to 'look the part'?

Awesome thread! Really has my gears spinning right now.

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 18, 2014, 03:04:13 AM
Exactly what I've been thinking too.
Besides the obvious ones, what aspects of gender are still important in your opinion?

When you say "the obvious ones" what does that mean for you? For me the obvious ones revolve the biological differences between a man and a woman. To be blunt, it is the penis and vagina thing and all that goes with it. The fact that the vast majority of sexual violence is still male assaults on females is a reality that is always there staring us in the face.  The awareness of that fact (and, sadly, direct experience of it for many) leads to variations in behavior which form another part of "gender".

In terms of strength, on average men are stronger than women and men have used that advantage to dominate women even before we were officially "homo sapiens".  That seemed to keep the species propagating well enough but it did so through the subjugation of women that still exists to this day.

As we become a more and more technology-based species, those differences begin to matter less and less. If every man on the planet died tomorrow, the species could go on thanks to sperm banks. (If all women died tomorrow and it was the men who survived the human race at this stage in the game the odds of our species surviving would not be too hot.)

Access to technology serves as an equalizer for the sexes and that is why in strong patriarchal societies are fighting to prevent women from accessing it.   It is a struggle that I expect will go on for some time (far past my lifetime) but eventually everyone will have access to the equalizer of technology and physical dominance of one sex over the other will not be as large of an issue.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go all "sci fi" on you but there you go.

I think there are other differences that do exist that maybe once mattered more than they do now, but are still significant.  I think hormones dictate gender in a BIG way. I am not speaking necessarily on an individual level (because we all have different hormonal histories - some more "normative" than others) but the collective effects of hormonal exposure upon all female humans as a group vs all males as a group definitely shapes the likelihood of certain gendered behaviors. (For example, the fact that men, on average, find younger women more sexually attractive than post-menopausal women I believe is driven by male hormones. These hormones directly impact men on a physiological level to influence their behavior, but their impact also jumps the gender divide by putting pressure on women (as a general group) try to appear younger via makeup, surgical and hormonal intervention. This is just one example of a hormonal sequence that creates gender but I could go on and on.

To some I might sound sexist by saying all of this and I am eager to hear arguments about why I am wrong (I just bought a book that supposedly has a different viewpoint called Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine. Some people I respect highly recommend this so I am curious to hear her take.)

I think that hormones drive our personalities, values and life motivations more than we are comfortable acknowledging. But it is also important to remember that biology does not have to be destiny. Just because there are forces at play that sometimes shape how we behave as gendered individuals that doesn't mean that they need to limit us in any way.  I think these differences are in an evolutionary decline that will be accelerated even further as we begin to learn more about them and the purposes they once served.

You know, during my time as a user of testosterone, I never could tolerate full strength or anything remotely close to a normal male level of it.  Enough to give me lots of hair, but not enough to do various other things.  But somewhere around that level it got even me thinking about sex.  And that's pretty amazing considering that I am a strongly asexual person who finds sex of any kind to be just plain icky and uninteresting. 

I don't really notice the mental effects of estrogen so much.  To me they just sort of feel like my baseline norm.  But to me the experience with T is ample evidence to prove that hormones really do influence behavior.  Honestly, the experience provoked some fear in me that is still with me to this day . . . .

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 18, 2014, 03:26:57 AM
"Multiple Transition" really puts a whole new perspective on the "You're just going through a phase" line

Maybe some of us ARE just going through a phase. Shouldn't that be ok? Does society need us to pick one gender or the other and stick with it? Do some of us force ourselves into behaviors that are uncomfortable in order to 'look the part'?

Awesome thread! Really has my gears spinning right now.

That's cool that you have been enjoying the conversation and of course your contributions have been really interesting.  I do think that people, in some cases, change their minds and that is nothing to be ashamed of.  That said and even though I think people should not discouraged for expressing various forms of "gender expression" I also think that what we call "gender" is still somewhat sacred and in some ways that needs to be honored out of respect for all people (trans and non).

Quote from: retransition on February 25, 2014, 06:32:10 PM
That's cool that you have been enjoying the conversation and of course your contributions have been really interesting.  I do think that people, in some cases, change their minds and that is nothing to be ashamed of. 

I very much enjoy hearing your view on the trans* experience. It's important for me as a transsexual to confront all of the fear and doubt I have about transitioning. If I don't question everything and look at the reality of it all, I put myself at risk for being severely disappointed with the result. And obviously you are not afraid to talk about "the messy stuff" and I respect that. I read quite a few of your blog entries on your website. I then had to compare myself with you. "What if I ended up detransitioning?" I asked myself. "What if I ended up going through with SRS etc only to discover later on that it wasn't what I really wanted/needed?"
I question everything on a regular basis, but I still feel that transition is the right thing for me. It has completely turned my life around. I'm finally becoming a happy person. I could go on and on about all the reasons I'm sticking on this path. 

Quote
That said and even though I think people should not discouraged for expressing various forms of "gender expression" I also think that what we call "gender" is still somewhat sacred and in some ways that needs to be honored out of respect for all people (trans and non).

Yes, gender is sacred. That is something I've had a hard time with as a transsexual. Its nice when I'm in the company of cis women and they accept me for who I am and treat me just like one of them. But the reality is, I'm NOT one of them. This might ruffle some feathers, but I don't think its fair to expect cis people to treat trans* people like cis people. It's embarrassing when somebody else takes it upon themselves to stand up for my trans rights when I never asked them to. I don't want trans activists to fight my battles. If I can survive in the world in my desired gender than that is something I earned.

Quote from: brianna1016 on February 26, 2014, 08:25:04 PM
I read quite a few of your blog entries on your website. I then had to compare myself with you. "What if I ended up detransitioning?" I asked myself. "What if I ended up going through with SRS etc only to discover later on that it wasn't what I really wanted/needed?"
I question everything on a regular basis, but I still feel that transition is the right thing for me. It has completely turned my life around. I'm finally becoming a happy person. I could go on and on about all the reasons I'm sticking on this path. 

That's great to hear.  My hope with my blog is that by sharing my own experiences others who read them might come away just a little bit more certain about their own life path no matter what direction that leads them in.  I am happy to hear things have been going well!  :-)

Quote from: retransition on February 23, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
I just bought a book that supposedly has a different viewpoint called Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine. Some people I respect highly recommend this so I am curious to hear her take.

I am 80% of the way through that book and am enjoying it immensely.  Her take is unashamedly against biology having any gigantic behavioural impact beyond dictating the physicality of height, muscle mass and adipose distribution.

However, despite the wealth of data she presents, I believe that the impact of, for example, HRT is so well documented that biology's role in our own personal expression and interpretation of life is very hard to deny. 

I have only had time to just start it.  Maybe I can make some headway this weekend, your review makes me even more eager to read it.  I definitely think the differences between male-typical brain vs female-typical are way over exaggerated. But I think that the role of hormones can't be denied in influencing certain patterns of brain development from prenatal until death.  Suddenly, relatively late in my own life, I am really interested in all of this stuff and trying to absorb as much as I can which is why I am now back in school studying psychology to get a sense of what theories other people are coming up with these days.

Quote from: Nikko on February 01, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
So... most cis-people are often bi-gendered but few trans people are? I think it's the other way around.

Maybe I'm misreading this.

My view is everyone falls somewhere on a continuum, most are very close to their physical gender and thus don't notice. Stray too far and you find yourself here. 

I am belatedly replying to say I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that this whole cis-trans thing is a continuum rather than a binary.

Retransition

Your views are converging with mine and they are being continually reinforced by hrt, counselling, conscious choice, life experience and an increasing number of writers  and the latest views from integrated rather than binary (nature v nurture) thinkers.  I have always enjoyed Kate Bornstein and her latest workbook is no different - it strongly supports her views on binary fluidity and choice. 
Perhaps more impactful has been a massive body of work from Allan Shore developing and applying his theory on affect regulation and the origin of self et al.  His ability to bring together neurobiology, developmental neurochemistry, behavioral neurology, evolutionary biology, developmental psychology, developmental psychoanalysis and infant psychiatry is truly impressive.  As a layperson I have found his argument that the sense of self and therefore gender is a combined neurobiological-social-emotional expression resonates and aligns with my view that chemical/structural (hrt/brain structure) and environmental (socialisation) interact in a constantly changing dance that we can either choose to fight and suffer stress or dissonance or choose to embrace and evolve.

Aisla

QuoteBut by failing to discuss that issue, the community does a disservice to its members.  It leaves those who will one day be on the road a second (or more) time out of the discussion.  It also fails to present a complete picture of the palette of options out there.  And it is perhaps less than honest with itself.  My way of describing my own identity is simple:  this works for me now, so I go with it, but I do not presume to know what will happen in the future.  I think that's honest and real.

I think detransition/retransition threads/ sub forums are a good idea and dont see the problem with it. However I really don't agree that the Trans community tries to hide or ignore detransitioners and detransitioning stories. I think that  they maybe many people detransitioning out there but I think they are still a minority in the trans community . Just like how they are many people who transition but the Trans community is still a minority in the LGBT community. And the LGBT community is a small community of the population and etc.  Sometimes its not that people dont want to support or are trying to oppress you, but that they truly don't know how to help or are just not aware of your existence. 

I have been part of a couple of trans forums and browsed some, and many of them caution Trans people to think carefully before transition (not that one cant change their mind later on or that they wont be any other option) but because its a big life changing decision that must be considered carefully, other options considered and have also seen these forums supporting people/members who would have transitioned and then detransition, with no judgement. Even though they may not have been any specific sub forums on this topic, I dont think its because trans boards/forums want to silence or not support people who detransition but its because noone would have asked for them or they aren't aware that they are many detransitioning people out there who require their own space with the community.They maybe misconceptions that people who detransition no longer want to be part of the Trans community, so transitioners may not be aware they are people out there who need the support.  It wasn't so many years ago that they werent FTM sub forums on many trans forums, and to this day some still don't, even Androgyny and genderqueer forums have been added much later on. So yeah i do think there is somewhat a communication problem, which can be easily solved.

Quote from: Marvel on April 11, 2014, 10:08:10 AM


I think detransition/retransition threads/ sub forums are a good idea and dont see the problem with it. However I really don't agree that the Trans community tries to hide or ignore detransitioners and detransitioning stories. I think that  they maybe many people detransitioning out there but I think they are still a minority in the trans community . Just like how they are many people who transition but the Trans community is still a minority in the LGBT community. And the LGBT community is a small community of the population and etc.  Sometimes its not that people dont want to support or are trying to oppress you, but that they truly don't know how to help or are just not aware of your existence. 

I have been part of a couple of trans forums and browsed some, and many of them caution Trans people to think carefully before transition (not that one cant change their mind later on or that they wont be any other option) but because its a big life changing decision that must be considered carefully, other options considered and have also seen these forums supporting people/members who would have transitioned and then detransition, with no judgement. Even though they may not have been any specific sub forums on this topic, I dont think its because trans boards/forums want to silence or not support people who detransition but its because noone would have asked for them or they aren't aware that they are many detransitioning people out there who require their own space with the community.They maybe misconceptions that people who detransition no longer want to be part of the Trans community, so transitioners may not be aware they are people out there who need the support.  It wasn't so many years ago that they werent FTM sub forums on many trans forums, and to this day some still don't, even Androgyny and genderqueer forums have been added much later on. So yeah i do think there is somewhat a communication problem, which can be easily solved.

Nice post.  And I agree that the minuteness in awareness of detransition related narratives within the trans space is usually not the product of some nefarious plot but more a reflection of the smaller proportion of people within the community interested in this topic.  And I agree that, like everything in life, communication and sharing of stories and experiences can probably benefit many (even those who may not at first think they would be interested in this topic.)