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Double standards re: toplessness

Started by dalebert, January 29, 2014, 10:23:21 AM

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Violet Bloom

  Incorrect, the term minor refers in this case to the person in the photo who willingly posts the photo, not the viewer.  If the subject matter in the photo is not presented as sexual or pornographic then nudity viewed by a minor is not considered a concern under the law and is not regulated.  Medical or scientific reference material is clearly defined as not obscene under the law and that is what I'm focusing on - the ability to discuss health related issues.  Further, it is expected under the law that parents or guardians of youths monitor and restrict content that they personally feel is inappropriate for the youths under their care including if they should deem legal and context-valid nudity to be inappropriate.  This is not the responsibility of the content host.  Withholding legal research information from interested trans parties seems more of a denial of service to all of the members, youth included, if it prevents learning or having an informed family discussion.  It also teaches youth that the female body is to be ashamed of.  I find it hard to believe that many parents open-minded enough to be having an open and supportive gender-identity discussion with their children, which must include issues with want or lack of sex organs likely raised by the child in the first place, would be offended by medically relevant and illustrated discussion of the chest area.  That said, I thought some areas of the site were not fully open access to minors anyway so the argument is not valid across the whole site.

  Basically by blocking any image of a female chest, regardless of context, the message sent is that it IS illegal and obscene.  This is false.  It is also virtually impossible to define someone's chest to be male or female under a number of scenarios already noted.  I understand the reasoning behind playing it safe with the site rules but the end result seems to be completely counterproductive to the mission of acceptance this site seeks to achieve, particularly as it relates to the equality of women.

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Cindy

This argument is non-productive. Staff follow the rules of the site owner.
This is a privately owned site that is owned by one person, Susan.
If you wish to discuss the matter with her please do so and staff will abide by her decision.

Our personal opinion (as staff) is irrelevant, we follow her directives.
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muffinpants

I would just like to point out that the picture that is left up on my post is that of female breasts. The one removed was definitely a man.
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Nero

Quote from: muffinpants on February 01, 2014, 12:11:20 AM
I would just like to point out that the picture that is left up on my post is that of female breasts. The one removed was definitely a man.

Touche. Removed that one as well.  :laugh:

To all: Basically, we don't even allow pictures of people posing in underwear. We're not really that concerned with the gender of the person in the image (we've removed very realistic looking images of an ftm posing with his prosthetic before).  If there's a question, we err on the side of caution.

Now, I think the original topic is a good one, but let's leave the site out of it.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Nero

Quote from: Violet Bloom on January 31, 2014, 08:40:47 PM
  I've been doing a lot of poking around the internet for US regulatory information.  It appears as long as you're not a minor, it's not pornography or obscene (legal definition of obscene), and you personally post it or consent to have someone else post it then it appears to be referred to as "mere nudity" and is not regulated.  If anyone knows different and can point to the specific legal references then please post links or quotations.  Even sexualized content seems to be a bit of a fuzzy area but this has nothing to do with the type of photographic content I'm referring to.  If breast augmentation photos can be hosted on a medical website for informational purposes without any disclaimer or viewer age verification then I don't see why we can't post purely informational non-sexualized content of females here.

  Possibly some useful reading here as a good general overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_obscenity_law

  And direct from the US Department of Justice:

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_obscenity.html

To address this and another comment that's been removed: We didn't say anything about illegalities. Obviously, there's a ton of nudity on the net. You're also jumping to a lot of conclusions here and in your last several posts and reading much more into a few short posts by staff. You're obviously passionate about this issue but arguing on a site trying it's best to keep itself clean and appropriate for trans people and their families is not the best venue.

Now, as I said, the OP is a worthy topic in itself - double standards in toplessness. So, let's stick to that and leave the site out of it.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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dalebert

I just want to be clear that I never made this thread with the intention of it being about Susan's moderation policies. Personally, I find them reasonable based on the current cultural climate, and it is privately owned so it doesn't matter what I think anyway. I've been a moderator before and I can say from experience that endless debate about moderation decisions is a great way to lose volunteers who are already doing a lot of work for free that is plenty tedious enough.

If we want to change how Susan's gets moderated, I think the way to do that is to change the general cultural climate for the better, thereby clearing the way. That's challenging, obviously, but anything worthwhile usually is. Trying to put the cart before the horse isn't going to be good for the site.

Susan

Since this falls under Rule 2 I have locked this thread.
Susan Larson
Founder
Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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