I always thought the autism thing was interesting. It makes sense for FTMs, but it seems strange for MTFs? Who should score lower on the autism traits if their brains were feminized, women have less autism traits on average. (my boyfriend who has mild Asperger's said it's like having a masculine brain, that it was good for hunters who needed to mostly be out interacting with their environment, making tools or setting traps and stuff and didn't need people skills/emotional intelligence.)

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 03:38:54 AM
I always thought the autism thing was interesting. It makes sense for FTMs, but it seems strange for MTFs? Who should score lower on the autism traits if their brains were feminized, women have less autism traits on average. (my boyfriend who has mild Asperger's said it's like having a masculine brain, that it was good for hunters who needed to mostly be out interacting with their environment, making tools or setting traps and stuff and didn't need people skills/emotional intelligence.)

It is confusing stuff isn't it? But I think it is important to consider this - the brains of some pre-HRT self-identified MTF people may not have anything particularly "feminine" about them. What if the desire of a natal male to be female or the sense that they are female does not arise out of any innate "femininity" but actually are, in some cases, the product of a very much "masculinized" brain.

I know that some people are looking into this and I find it fascinating.  A lot the latest speculation in this area is based on the (sometimes polarizing) work of Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen (Yes Sacha is a relative, his cousin in fact) and his theory of an "extreme male brain" in autism.

Great topic and meaty posts. I have learned a lot from each contribution. Am still digesting and buzzing.  Brilliant.

Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:11:44 AM
Is this writing you did on this forum? Regardless, I am going to keep my reply short and take the time to read ALL of your posts to date on Susans (and try to read as much as I can within the threads to get context) so that I have a better base of understanding of your perspectives of gender and also because the ones I have read and the ones on this forum are always interesting.  Next time we talk I hope I will "know" you a little bit better.

I'm sorry, saying that is my way of saying, "I said this before, but I don't want to re type it because I'm lazy/I'm afraid of starting a fight or attracting the bullies/I don't think it's all that wise or interesting/some other reason."  I guess it's a little unfair to anyone who is actually interested.   If I say I wrote about it, that means I wrote about it here.  I've posted things I published elsewhere on this forum before, but when I post those things, I never mention that I am the author, so I'd end up saying, "so-and-so mentioned in an article I posted . . . ."

This story is what I was referring to:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:29:51 PM
They both happen on the road to Death Valley, which is one of my favorite vacation spots.  I like to fly to LAX, stay the night, and then drive to Death Valley.  The road I take leads through Panamint Valley, a gorgeous, but totally isolated valley that is very similar to Death Valley itself.  Very hot desert, hardly any people around, and no cell phone service.  And both of me (the male and female versions) have been there. 

One year, female me went and saw wild flowers growing in the Panamint valley.  I pulled over to take some photos.  At the moment I started to get out of the car, another car was passing in the opposite direction.  Immediately the blinker came on and the (male) driver started to pull off the road right behind me.  I figured that this likely meant that he thought I had broken down and was stopping to help.  So I held up my camera where he could see it and realize I had just stopped to take photos.  The turn signal promptly went off and he kept going on his way.  Now, of course, there's another possibility.  The image of damsel in distress could have looked more like a potential victim.  If he had stopped and gotten out when I held up my camera, I would have gotten back in the car, started it, and left because of worry about my safety.

Another year, male me went and actually did get in trouble in the Panamint Valley.  I had pulled over to take photos of the area on a particularly gorgeous day.  When I tried to leave, my car got stuck in the sand and gravel on the side of the road in about 110 degree heat.  A few other cars did pass by while I was trying to get unstuck.  But no one stopped to help.  Eventually I did get myself unstuck and I continued on my way.  And of course eventually someone probably would have stopped.  But I would not have had to wait long in that heat to be injured by it and it's very questionable whether anyone would have stopped by then.  But when eventually someone did stop, it would be less likely that they would try to harm me. 

It's interesting to me that these two experiences are basically mirror images of one another.  The possibilities are basically binary:  someone either stops or they don't.  But the outcomes are opposite:  someone is more likely to stop in one case, but the risk is greater if they do.  In the other case, someone is less likely to stop, but the risk associated with the stopping itself is lesser. 

I understand privilege and detriment to be about how others treat you better or worse in a different situation.  Experiencing those privileges and detriments is only one part of learning to be in the world.  But it is a substantial part of it.  So which version of me was more privileged here?  I'm not sure.  It seems to me that the greater likelihood of someone stopping for female-me is a female privilege that could have saved my life in other circumstances.  But the possibility of being raped is a female detriment that could have severely damaged or even ended my life.  The lesser likelihood of someone stopping for male me is a male detriment that could severely damaged or even ended my life.  But the lesser likelihood of being raped by someone who did stop was a male privilege.  So each version of me, based on gender, had a different privilege and a different detriment.  But which was more privileged?  I honestly have no idea.  So how does male privilege fit in here?

One of the reasons I like Death Valley is for stargazing.  But my mother taught me to be very careful when out in the dark.  Always park near a street lamp (there are none in Death Valley).  When you get back in the car, look to make sure no one is inside waiting for you.  That sort of thing, and I could go on.  So being out to look at the sky is both awe inspiring (the sky is so clear that you see things you may never have seen before) and scary (being out in the dead of night).  I stay safe by staying in the car, rolling down the window, and laying my head on the side of the window to look straight up.  That way if something happens, I can leave fast.  In fact, every time I've been out stargazing, I have left because I heard a noise and was afraid.  I have yet to leave because I'm finished.  That was true whether it as guy-me or gal-me. 

Maybe if I had been socialized in a more masculine way, I would have the bravado of many men that I have heard:  the ones who say they'll beat up or shoot anyone who messes with them.  Unlike many of those people, I actually do have an advanced belt in the martial arts (at one time that was my chosen form of exercise).  But I don't have that kind of confidence or bravado.  Frankly I don't think I'm that foolish.  But it also keeps me from doing things that would be stupid and get me assaulted or killed.  So how do male/female privileges and detriments fit in here?  Would it be overly provocative to suggest that being taught to be foolish and willing to charge into a fight or stand your ground is a male detriment because it is more likely to cause someone to end up injured or dead?

I guess I should also pause here to admit that despite the time I spent living as a supposedly male person, I do not actually know very much about men.  So for all the bravado and bluster, I have no idea how many men would really stand their ground like that.  The only thing I know is that hearing the talk of that sounds really stupid.  For all I know, they might leave just as I did, but not want to admit it. 

I see gender as part of a three part wheel. you have the gender you feel like, the biological sex you are, and how you act. Cis people never think about any of that. That would include feminine gay males and such. The problem occurs when you feel that your set doesn't match in your own mind and you feel the drive to change one. No one  thing is easy to change. For example in how you act. It's the little things you don't think about. For me it's how you cross your legs or hold a cigarette. Until recently I had to put real thought into crossing my legs like a guy. I gave up doing that. Other things have been pointed out to me that I do since I came out to a few people.

Allow me to recommend the following blog, A.E Brain, which has a massive summary of transgender brain related research with appropriate links. Some of you may enjoy diving in there and not coming up for a while.

The evidence is now overwhelming that brain differences are real, are caused by hormonal fluctuations in the womb especially over the first 16 weeks of pregnancy when so many critical brain structures get their basic formation.

Please also view this January 2011 AMA Webcast about transsexuality, homosexuality, and hormonal impacts on brain development and brain structure differences.  The Webcast is about an hour long but well worth viewing.

Thanks for sharing these resources - I am going to check them out.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 04, 2014, 08:53:09 AM
I'm sorry, saying that is my way of saying, "I said this before, but I don't want to re type it because I'm lazy/I'm afraid of starting a fight or attracting the bullies/I don't think it's all that wise or interesting/some other reason."  I guess it's a little unfair to anyone who is actually interested.   If I say I wrote about it, that means I wrote about it here.  I've posted things I published elsewhere on this forum before, but when I post those things, I never mention that I am the author, so I'd end up saying, "so-and-so mentioned in an article I posted . . . ."

Yeah I still want to catch up. Thanks though for sharing the death valley stories. I am south of LA so down in San Diego our desert is the Anza Borrego. I too enjoy star gazing and just getting lost in the magnitude of it all. When I was young in San Diego (long long time ago) I could see the Milky Way sometimes at night.  That quickly became impossible.  But then, as a young adult in the desert I can remember how amazing it was to "rediscover" it again for myself—I had pretty much forgotten about being able to see it.

I totally "get" how your story about the two experiences in the desert can be interpreted as a privilege. Having someone stop to help you when you are in a jam can be really great.  It is sad that more men don't stop to help fellow men (although there are a lot of guys who do).  There are a few downsides though to what you describe as "female privilege" and I think you must have felt this when seeing the car coming toward you to ask if you need help.  I think a lot of women (for good reason) are terrified when they see that car coming because they know that they are now especially vulnerable for sexual assault and murder. Before I transitioned (and was unambiguously recognizable as a male) I did see a few women seeming to be in some distress by the side of the road and I would stop but would always park a few lengths ahead and would ask from there if she needed anything.  I think in all cases she had called someone or a boyfriend was getting gas or whatever.
I guess what I am saying is that this "privilege" is a two headed coin. When a woman's car breaks down, in some situations it can be a life or death situation simply because she is female. And I think that some of the men who stop to assist do so because they are aware of this and are genuinely concerned for her safety (they know they are the "good guy" but of course the woman can never be sure of this.)

I think all of us are at risk when we go to secluded areas alone.  Women much more so than men, but both sexes are always to some degree at risk.  I have some male friends who go to the desert alone and I would be too terrified to ever do this myself even when I was presenting male (the first time.) I have joined my local Sierra Club and now go on group outings. Good stuff.

ThePhoenix, I think you forgot to consider that you retained some male privilege presenting as a girl... the privilege of having been socialized in such a way that you would even consider doing things like that independently. Y'know? I had a more (dogmatic) female-ish socialization (be proper, polite, accommodating, thin, modest, unselfish, don't be opinionated, don't be vulgar, don't be unsociable, don't be private, don't be assertive) and personally I can't even imagine going to the movies or a restaurant alone, I would feel overwhelmed, uncomfortable and anxious, not to mention a little indecent. I just have never experienced the independence in my life to teach me that being alone and doing things for myself can be safe and rewarding. I don't trust myself to be able to handle new situations because I've never been given responsibilities to learn from. Just my 2c (:

Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
Yeah I still want to catch up. Thanks though for sharing the death valley stories. I am south of LA so down in San Diego our desert is the Anza Borrego. I too enjoy star gazing and just getting lost in the magnitude of it all. When I was young in San Diego (long long time ago) I could see the Milky Way sometimes at night.  That quickly became impossible.  But then, as a young adult in the desert I can remember how amazing it was to "rediscover" it again for myself—I had pretty much forgotten about being able to see it.

I've never seen the Milky Way.   That's a big part of why I keep going to Death Valley.  I want to see it and that's supposed to be one if the best places to do it.  Plus I spent a lot of time in the desert when I was little.  Going there is like returning home and nourishing my spirit.  When the treatment at my work got particularly severe, the psychiatrist I was seeing talked about hospitalizing me because of it, but ultimately I went out there and that was considered good enough.

Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
I guess what I am saying is that this "privilege" is a two headed coin. When a woman's car breaks down, in some situations it can be a life or death situation simply because she is female. And I think that some of the men who stop to assist do so because they are aware of this and are genuinely concerned for her safety (they know they are the "good guy" but of course the woman can never be sure of this.)

I agree completely.  Actually the point of telling those two stories was to illustrate the two heads of that coin.  Like I said, there is both a privilege and a detriment there.  The male privilege is that anyone who stopped was less likely to try and make me a victim.  The male detriment is that it was a lot less likely someone would have stopped in the first place.  The female privilege is that someone was more likely to stop.  The female detriment is that it was more likely that the person who did stop might see me as easy prey.  I'm not sure who has it better or worse in a situation like that.  I suspect it might all really even out in the end. 

Quote from: retransition on February 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
I think all of us are at risk when we go to secluded areas alone.  Women much more so than men, but both sexes are always to some degree at risk.  I have some male friends who go to the desert alone and I would be too terrified to ever do this myself even when I was presenting male (the first time.) I have joined my local Sierra Club and now go on group outings. Good stuff.

I grew up in a military family and was raised by parents from the desert southwest (New Mexico and Arizona).  When you grow up that way, travel is just a way of life and going alone is no big deal.  And with all the time I spent on long, long trips visiting my parents' families, the desert really is an old friend in a way.  Although I am always very cautious when I go.  Leaving L.A. involves stopping for a case of bottled water and several bags of fruit, plus sunblock and so on. 

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
ThePhoenix, I think you forgot to consider that you retained some male privilege presenting as a girl... the privilege of having been socialized in such a way that you would even consider doing things like that independently. Y'know?

I really hate explaining my history over and over and over when people make erroneous assumptions, so I'm going to skip that part.  But see above regarding how and where I was raised.  Suffice to say that my mother is far more adventurous in her solo travels than I am.  And she and I are far from being the only women that I've ever met who are like that.  I think fear of going places alone has more to do with fear of traveling in general than with gender.  I'm also not sure that a form of socialization that would make you more likely to end up in dangerous situations fits within my understanding of the word privilege.  It's hard to fathom that something that makes you more likely to die is a privilege. 

I will say that mentioning "my male socialization" to anyone who knows me well offline is a good way to make people laugh.  But I'm going to leave discussion of my history at that.

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
I had a more (dogmatic) female-ish socialization (be proper, polite, accommodating, thin, modest, unselfish, don't be opinionated, don't be vulgar, don't be unsociable, don't be private, don't be assertive)

Yes, these were all very central to my upbringing too, and I agree that they are usually stressed more for women than men.  I'm (theoretically if trans*ness had not ended my work) in a profession that is all about being an out spoken lawyer and advocate where sometimes being the loudest advocate matters.  I have had to learn to make a strength of being unassuming, soft spoken, and quiet.  But even so, it's not great to hear yourself described in a room full of your blustering, loud, belligerent colleagues as "our quiet and demure colleague."  Especially not when you're supposed to be one of the guys keeping up with the big boys.

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
and personally I can't even imagine going to the movies or a restaurant alone, I would feel overwhelmed, uncomfortable and anxious, not to mention a little indecent. I just have never experienced the independence in my life to teach me that being alone and doing things for myself can be safe and rewarding. I don't trust myself to be able to handle new situations because I've never been given responsibilities to learn from. Just my 2c (:

I am sorry that you were brought up in a way that led to that.  But again, I don't think that it is particularly a male or female thing.  Women seem to do just as well as men at handling new situations, living independently, etc. 

Y'know what, I'm really sorry if I misunderstood you or made too many assumptions.

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 09:30:02 PM
Y'know what, I'm really sorry if I misunderstood you or made too many assumptions.

No worries.   

I just don't like it when people assume that I fit the usual born male, transitioned to female story.  I understand why people make that assumption, but my story is more complicated than that and involves some atypical medical stuff and so on (like the fact that I've always been pretty forthright about having taken both T and E in the past--I will go that far).  Even I find it confusing and don't understand it fully.  At one time I thought I did, but that did not last long . . . But I also don't really like to talk about it either.  One thing I notice about my posts is that I think I say relatively little about myself.  So I guess it's kind of unfair for me to be frustrated when people don't get it that there's something a little different going on with me.  I guess that's part of why I like discussing with retransition so much.  We don't have exactly the same story, but we have some things in common and he's one of the few who seems to grasp the meaning behind my posts. We also seem to be at similar places in thinking things through about ourselves and our journeys. Having him around is a real benefit to me and I hope I'm able to benefit him too.

No, I completely understand, and I feel horrible for having made assumptions when assumptions bother me too and make it hard to participate in the trans community often. Ack. Sometimes I get emotional and self-centered and don't think what I am saying through!  I was off on a limb and it didn't even make sense. I mean for one, I was raised as a boy myself, it's just that my dad wanted a girl instead of a boy and was incredibly controlling, and I've never escaped this dainty, victorian, helpless dependent girl sort of lifestyle, so I (over-)identify with a lot of the learned helplessness and neediness that can culturally affect women. Anyway, I've always been mystified by independent people, and it's a trait I probably wrongly associate with maleness, which could be just me projecting anyway.

I like this forum too! I like the idea of retransition, which is something I want to do but also having physical issues I don't know if it's possible for me to pass as male and I don't know if I could handle the role, which is something I've never truly experienced.

So that's my story... sorry again. Just wanted to say at least in some roundabout way I could identify with why my post was really frustrating to you.

Kia Ora Re,

Just out of interest...When you start your day (any day) is gender identity on your mind ? Do you feel anxious about how people are going to react to your somewhat androgynous appearance?

I hope you don't mind my nosy nature...I'm just trying to gauge how far along in your retransition you are ...

Metta Zenda

I started to write a post about my own difficulties passing and assimilating as a guy.  But maybe it's more helpful to just point out that when we speak of male versus female socialization, we are speaking of very complex things that are impacted by a lot more than just gender.

For example, aside from gender socialization, I was also socialized as a lawyer by three years in law school plus coming up on ten years as a member of the bar.  I may be the "demure" colleague around a bunch of guys who are doing their posturing and such.  But having my writing critiqued constantly has squeezed out a lot of hesitation and made me a much more assertive writer.  I kept a notebook of poetry and "poetic prose" that I wrote when I was in high school.  I'm not sure I could do that now.  I think that kind of feeling is a lot harder for me to express these days and I really doubt that I could remember how to write flowery. 

If one were to assign a gender to the way I write, I'd be very surprised if they said anything other than male.  But knowing what I just explained . . . is it that I am writing male or is it that I'm writing lawyer? 

I am probably the absolute worst person in the world to say this . . . And I know nothing about how you look or anything. But I think you'd find there is a lot of variation within genders.  There are plenty of skinny, slim guys and lots of hulking, huge women (think Coach Beast from Glee).  And there's a lot of role variation too . . . I think you'd find plenty of variation in learned roles too.  There are sensitive, gentle men, and hard assed women.  So . . . If it is what you really want and what will make your life make the most sense, I suspect that you'd find you could do it.  As long as you're being true to who you are, I would bet your chances of finding a way to make it work would be good.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 04, 2014, 10:32:29 PM
I started to write a post about my own difficulties passing and assimilating as a guy.  But maybe it's more helpful to just point out that when we speak of male versus female socialization, we are speaking of very complex things that are impacted by a lot more than just gender.

For example, aside from gender socialization, I was also socialized as a lawyer by three years in law school plus coming up on ten years as a member of the bar.  I may be the "demure" colleague around a bunch of guys who are doing their posturing and such.  But having my writing critiqued constantly has squeezed out a lot of hesitation and made me a much more assertive writer.  I kept a notebook of poetry and "poetic prose" that I wrote when I was in high school.  I'm not sure I could do that now.  I think that kind of feeling is a lot harder for me to express these days and I really doubt that I could remember how to write flowery. 

If one were to assign a gender to the way I write, I'd be very surprised if they said anything other than male.  But knowing what I just explained . . . is it that I am writing male or is it that I'm writing lawyer? 

I am probably the absolute worst person in the world to say this . . . And I know nothing about how you look or anything. But I think you'd find there is a lot of variation within genders.  There are plenty of skinny, slim guys and lots of hulking, huge women (think Coach Beast from Glee).  And there's a lot of role variation too . . . I think you'd find plenty of variation in learned roles too.  There are sensitive, gentle men, and hard assed women.  So . . . If it is what you really want and what will make your life make the most sense, I suspect that you'd find you could do it.  As long as you're being true to who you are, I would bet your chances of finding a way to make it work would be good.

That makes a lot of sense, about lawyer socialization

I can only imagine that that's a huge character building experience... both going through law school and then surviving the job itself. It sounds very intimidating, but it also sounds like it was worth it?

I'm working to piece apart my socialization and become functional, so I really like the idea that you can choose to enter a new socialization. I've never had a job, but I know that once I do it will probably change me a lot as well. It is a constant struggle to advocate for myself and communicate that I want to be more independent when my boyfriend is happy to replace the role my dad used to fill... (not that I blame him for that, he just wants to provide for me, but he doesn't understand how it feels to be chronically without any autonomy.)

Unfortunately, I'm positive that I would struggle to pass as a boy if I were truly myself. I lived full time as a girl before taking any hormones and never was gendered male. It's not that I feel like a boy, I just came to accept that being trans makes me unhappy, I can't force myself to be happy with it, and I happen to have been born as male so that's the only way I can be cis. I still don't totally understand/feel the concept of gender identity in either direction (though I strongly ID with femininity!) and, yep, I just prefer to be cis regardless of gender. But, having a difficult constellation of features and a weak response to testosterone, I would certainly have to make a LOT of concessions in terms of who I am to have even an iffy pass rate, it definitely wouldn't be who I truly am.. so it's very confusing!! D:

Umh, I'm not trying to get off on a tangent/off-topic, sorry lol I guess I'm just saying that this is why I struggle with assumptions too, because people don't always get the right mental picture of me when they hear MTF. I don't mean that like I could *never ever* pass as a boy, just I would absolutely have to become a stereotype to do it, you know?? Which would feel just as uncomfortable as being trans is for me... so I never know where I stand. I really think it's lovely that more freedom of gender expression is becoming acceptable lately, and maybe if I lived in a big city it would even be possible! But I'm in a sort of farm-y, semi-rural pocket of the east coast, only barely out of the south, and I just don't see it happening here... I couldn't even pass as a boy in plain, baggy men's clothes here simply because I take care of my hair.

OK, I'm done blabbering about me

I wonder though, how many people's transition/de/retransition experience is physically motivated?? Sometimes I feel alone with my set of issues, but this forum comes closest for me to where I am at right now. It's refreshing to hear new perspectives and I think it's awesome that people have the courage to learn from their transition and use that to keep growing

Quote from: sad panda on February 04, 2014, 11:45:41 PM
Umh, I'm not trying to get off on a tangent/off-topic, sorry lol I guess I'm just saying that this is why I struggle with assumptions too, because people don't always get the right mental picture of me when they hear MTF. I don't mean that like I could *never ever* pass as a boy, just I would absolutely have to become a stereotype to do it, you know?? Which would feel just as uncomfortable as being trans is for me... so I never know where I stand. I really think it's lovely that more freedom of gender expression is becoming acceptable lately, and maybe if I lived in a big city it would even be possible! But I'm in a sort of farm-y, semi-rural pocket of the east coast, only barely out of the south, and I just don't see it happening here... I couldn't even pass as a boy in plain, baggy men's clothes here simply because I take care of my hair.

Within this quote above it made me think of how many trans people do go for the stereotypes and I wonder if it is because they feel in order to pass they have to become the stereotype? I guess something similar would be a non-trans (I think I like that label more than cis) person who has the appearance of the opposite gender might do the same thing – become a stereotype of their gender in order to "fit in" more? Curious questions.

Another thing it made me think of is how I've often felt that if all of my body parts matched with my brain, how much I wouldn't care if people thought I was a women. Seems odd but most of my issues are with myself rather than society. I may have my off days where if one more person referred to me as "she" I'd want to scream but just the fact that I have no desire to socially transition or even change my name points to the fact that I care less about what other people think rather than what I think of myself.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 05, 2014, 11:03:08 PM
Within this quote above it made me think of how many trans people do go for the stereotypes and I wonder if it is because they feel in order to pass they have to become the stereotype? I guess something similar would be a non-trans (I think I like that label more than cis) person who has the appearance of the opposite gender might do the same thing – become a stereotype of their gender in order to "fit in" more? Curious questions.

Another thing it made me think of is how I've often felt that if all of my body parts matched with my brain, how much I wouldn't care if people thought I was a women. Seems odd but most of my issues are with myself rather than society. I may have my off days where if one more person referred to me as "she" I'd want to scream but just the fact that I have no desire to socially transition or even change my name points to the fact that I care less about what other people think rather than what I think of myself.

So for you it's more about your body and less about the social aspects?

I can see that. I'm similar and also not similar. I don't have an ideal in terms of features really, but I don't want to be in-between. So if I looked masculine, I'd try to look like a gorgeous masculine guy. But being feminine, I try to look like a pretty girl. Since I will look like a girl either no matter what I do (within my limits,) it seems better to be a pretty girl than a girl with bad skin and bushy brows.

Actually, I don't want to care about the social aspects even, and just have the freedom to be me, but I guess I am missing the strength/resolve. I don't know how to deal with the idea of telling everyone I'm a boy when everyone assumes girl. It seems tiresome. Like I've tried that with some friends, but it doesn't stick. I think they forget I'm a boy, or just don't stay conscious of it. I always feel like I just slip back into the female binary. And feel essentially forced to keep like "transitioning" which sucks as someone who really doesn't feel trans and doesn't have a gender ID or particularly want to be trans. But, as a non-transitioner, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the line between transitioning and not transitioning is frustrating!! Wish it didn't have to be so all-or-nothing. The best option I found was just to be a boy to myself, but let people assume what they want. At least then I don't feel as much like I need to over-conform to feel valid or something.

Non-trans... that works (: thank you.

Quote from: sad panda on February 06, 2014, 02:24:55 AM
So for you it's more about your body and less about the social aspects?

I can see that. I'm similar and also not similar. I don't have an ideal in terms of features really, but I don't want to be in-between. So if I looked masculine, I'd try to look like a gorgeous masculine guy. But being feminine, I try to look like a pretty girl. Since I will look like a girl either no matter what I do (within my limits,) it seems better to be a pretty girl than a girl with bad skin and bushy brows.

Actually, I don't want to care about the social aspects even, and just have the freedom to be me, but I guess I am missing the strength/resolve. I don't know how to deal with the idea of telling everyone I'm a boy when everyone assumes girl. It seems tiresome. Like I've tried that with some friends, but it doesn't stick. I think they forget I'm a boy, or just don't stay conscious of it. I always feel like I just slip back into the female binary. And feel essentially forced to keep like "transitioning" which sucks as someone who really doesn't feel trans and doesn't have a gender ID or particularly want to be trans. But, as a non-transitioner, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the line between transitioning and not transitioning is frustrating!! Wish it didn't have to be so all-or-nothing. The best option I found was just to be a boy to myself, but let people assume what they want. At least then I don't feel as much like I need to over-conform to feel valid or something.

Non-trans... that works (: thank you.

To be honest, "socially" I've never been a girl. I don't interact with other people in typical feminine ways. Don't have the mannerisms, etc. There have been times I've tried to fake it, but much like you seem to be, it doesn't work really. People see through that. In my case, since I'm not built like an average guy (although there are regular guys out there my size, most can grow decent facial hair!), and I'm a bit "flashy" (yes I care about fashion and yes I have a hair straightener) people default with female. But I confuse the heck out of many people. For instance, usually waiters/waitresses in restaurants never refer to me with a female pronoun, it's almost always gender neutral even if they're using gender pronouns with other people at the table. That doesn't bother me in the least though. Where I get more female pronouns is with old men, old women, or retail store clerks. I've kind of been conducting my own sociological experiment of sorts over the years with it all simply because it is interesting how others "see" gender in the world.

It does take some strength and resolve to just be yourself when that self doesn't conform to "majority rule" in society. Since I am the way I am, I almost feel like I'm naturally in-between genders, even though I mentally ID as male. My body is what it is and that is a reality for me, so I do have to deal with that. But for me personally, just accepting it as normal to be in the middle ground was kind of a key thing for me. The internal rage against reality and consequently, myself, really dissipated. I'm not struggling to become something. I just am.

I love the statement "I am not struggling to just become something  ..  I just am".  Since starting this journey and in particular since taking hrt my discomfort has largely disappeared and I have become far more accepting, less prescriptive and open to living in the moment.  Just being is much more comfortable than struggling to stay afloat and compelled to head in a binary direction.   Accepting who I am and the opportunity to self author my life experience has been in many ways a revelation and an unexpected source of joy and excitement.  Gender is part of my identity but with all of its nuance and attendant stress I accept that it is an essence which is at the core of my identity and if I don't seek to define, capture, constrain or over think it then it is a wonder not a source of frustration and angst
Aisla