My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.

Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?

The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.

Any thoughts?

I've never done that. I spent less than a year trying to be more feminine when I was 12-13 or so, but even then it was masculine female clothes, never even entertained the thought of make up, and it soon ended. My most female haircuts were short ones, trying to get it all cut off but being to scared to ask until I was 14.  That whole time I was just awkward.

Overcompensating in the opposite way, as in trying to be more masculine than the boys around me was very real though, and got me into a lot of trouble.  I didn't know how to prove myself to them without fighting them, and showing them that I was just as strong, or stronger than they were.  It also meant that I bottled up a lot of emotions, and didn't trust anyone.  It never got me any further than trying to pretend to be feminine.

Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?

I think we tend to try very temporary "fitting in" solutions such as long hair, makeup, and stereotypically feminine clothing. Easy to change overnight by cutting the hair, tossing the makeup, and wearing pants.

But a lot of people give us crap if we like pretty things, makeup (even if it's just goth), fingernail polish, earrings, and long hair. And many of us question our own identities because we like some of these things.

Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.

Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?

The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.

Any thoughts?

Plucking eye brows!! I have a friend that overcompensated this way and now was hugely regretful and was very dysphoric for that. Seems a strange thing but that's the case. Then he went and has his eye brows tatooed in.

BTW, I think the most severe form fo this kind of overcompensation would be eating disorders. To hide their body shape there seems to be a lot of FTM young people that become very obese or get anorexia to make their bodies look more androgynous. I think if they were actually aware they were in the wrong body for their gender, they might not do it and that it is mainly unconscious. Fortunately for me, I chose a different compensation and just wore clothes that were many times too big. At least it's harmless.

--Jay

Quote from: Cindy on February 09, 2014, 01:58:13 AM
My follow up to this would be that many MtF ruin there bodies to some extent by bulking up and trying to be a man, then have to deal with those issues when they transition and deal with the 'man in a dress' comments, due to their physical attributes.

Do FtM suffer consequences physically or mentally as a consequence to trying to fit in?

The reason I ask is that I counsell young transgender people and the MtF I can advise not to bulk up etc, but I'm unsure what to tell young FtM.

Any thoughts?

I agree with Jay on the eating disorders.  I knew that there was something which made me uncomfortable with my body, and thought that it was my fat (which I really didn't have much of).  I don't think I ever had a full blown eating disorder, but for several months I skipped meals, tried to eat as little as possible, and sometimes tried to make myself vomit, fortunately to no avail.  In a way I think I was lucky that I had an infected wound on my hand when I did, because I needed to force myself to try and get the nutrients needed to help fight the infection, and if I had left it longer I think I might have become a lot worse.  Even though I now know what my issue with my body is I still have some odd thoughts about it and food sometimes.

Tattoos are another thing which I'd advice people not to do.  Feminine tattoos and even tattoo placement are often very different than those that men have.  You can have cover up tattoos or laser, but it's never quite the same.

I second the danger of eating disorders. And feminine tattoos are not a good idea. No one wants to be a 30 year old man with a hot pink butterfly tramp stamp.

A few other bits of advice I can think of:
-Waxing all the hair off your body/electrolysis. Don't do that.

-Avoid taking birth control if you can. Your boobs get bigger, your hips get bigger, everything about you feminizes. If you have to, of course, then you have to. But try to avoid it.

-Don't get female cosmetic surgery- nose job, boob job etc. I met an FTM who did that and it's terrible for him.

Finally- arguably most importantly:

-Don't make irresponsible sexual choices! FTM's reeeally pay for this one. A consequence of us hypersexualizing ourselves when in denial is that we often make sexual mistakes to feel like normal girls. This will only lead to bad things- the worst possible outcome being pregnancy. And that is just awful. So please, be safe, don't sleep with people w/o protection just because you want to feel desirable. And for the love of pete DON'T get pregnant on purpose to overcompensate.

I have to say, I can actually relate to so many of the things here. About two or three times a year for about two weeks I'd try as hard as I could to mold myself into what is considered being a real woman. And, I can also relate to believing that the reason why I felt so horrible about myself was because I was fat. Well, I did get pregnant, but that was not planned at all and not done to overcompensate, and I did gain a bit of weight due to that. But, about a year after I gave birth, I lost about 30 pounds in less then two months and continued to drop weight after that. I'd occasionally drop weight in a few days and then my weight would stand still for a few weeks. To tell the truth, this does still occasionally happen to me when my disorphia feels like its too hard to handle and control.

Quote from: Dalex on February 09, 2014, 05:05:20 PM
And, I can also relate to believing that the reason why I felt so horrible about myself was because I was fat.

Yeah. I can relate as well. I think one of the major reasons so many us go through that is because the vast majority of young women struggle with negative body image- so it's easy for us to think "I'm just like those other girls; I just need to be thin and attractive and I'll be fine." It can be for difficult for us to connect our dysphoria to gender at first.

Quote from: aleon515 on February 09, 2014, 01:20:43 PM
Plucking eye brows!! I have a friend that overcompensated this way and now was hugely regretful and was very dysphoric for that. Seems a strange thing but that's the case. Then he went and has his eye brows tatooed in.

BTW, I think the most severe form fo this kind of overcompensation would be eating disorders. To hide their body shape there seems to be a lot of FTM young people that become very obese or get anorexia to make their bodies look more androgynous. I think if they were actually aware they were in the wrong body for their gender, they might not do it and that it is mainly unconscious. Fortunately for me, I chose a different compensation and just wore clothes that were many times too big. At least it's harmless.

--Jay

So true.  I'm glad I didn't pluck my eyebrows more than I did.  I think I permanently affected the shape (they're quite arched, but still fairly thick) however.

I also notice that there are a great many obese FTMs.  It's understandable, but like Jay, I went the opposite direction and tried to lose as much weight as possible to have a skinny shape and smaller moobs/hips/etc.

I definitely used to overcompensate for how awkward my boobs felt by showing them off with low-cut/tight shirts in middle school, and right before I came out I went through a phase where I tried really hard to be a "pretty girl" and wore dresses, earrings, etc.

Interesting point about obesity it is a major problem because many therapists are extremely reluctant to put FtM  (and MtF) on hormonal treatment if they are obese. Sadly a significant number of transgender are morbidly obese and it is the second largest cause of death in transgender in Australia.

The reaction of clients to being told to drop weight and that they are morbidly obese is extremely negative in the clinic I'm associated with. The reaction of many is so negative that it is the reason that we are accused of 'gatekeeping' when in fact it is a serious concern for both their ability to successfully assimilate and their ongoing health.

Surgeons are very reluctant to operate on morbidly obese clients due to poor outcome and life threatening side effects.

I hadn't thought of tattoos and eyebrows. Good points thank you. And yes pregnancy is a life changing situation.

I saw "Becoming Chaz" and you can see Chaz has really dropped his weight since transitioning. I am guessing that generally transitioning is life saving and that people will be in a position to put in the effort after transition. I know several people who have. OTOH, I do know those who haven't. Most of the really well-known surgeons here WILL do top surgery on morbidly obese patients, but obviously the risks are higher.

--Jay

Speaking of tattoos.... I actually do have one that has a butterfly, a red one, on my ankle. That is actually a memorial tattoo for my moms who both passed away, but I think I might get that covered with something else but still keep the memorial tattoo idea alive. Just not a butterfly...

Oh man, I typed a big ol' response... but lost it.

Basically, my methods of overcompensation were:
-trying to be super mom, and joining moms groups
-My hair, growing it out super long and obsessing about it. Like it had it's own life.
-Shopping with my mother and dressing to gain her affection.
-makeup and dressing to please others
-over-sexualization, treating my body more like a product to be sold...
-A very difficult, unrelenting desire to be pregnant (finally free of this) and have 2 wonderful kids I love with all my heart.

To answer Cindy's question, my consequences were as follows:
-really bad emotional/processing disorders I'm guessing a lot of the TG community struggles with these though.
-complications from huge weight fluctuations (digestive, metabolism disorders)
-heart problems from excessive estrogen and drugs received during childbirth
-an uneven gait, chronic pain, and other complications from a split pelvis from childbirth & pregnancy
-And more complications relating to reproductive organs....
-oh oh oh I thought of one more... a physical one. My chest... the surgery to correct my chest now will be much more difficult due to tissue damage from them being stretched out.


Anyways, not everyone gets these issues, but yeah. That's a big ol part of my story right now.

To answer both of your questions, Cindy...

For your first question, I never exactly tried to fit in with girls to be "normal". I knew that I wasn't "normal" like most other girls I knew (feminine, heterosexual girls) and the only girls that I really felt a kinship to were tomboys when I was younger because we played similarly. But I was raised to think that prettier was better and so the prettier and more attractive I was the better I thought I was in comparison to other "girls".

For your second question... consequences that came from this...

I had a huge problem with body image when I was younger. I always thought I should be skinnier and have less hips/butt (read: androgynous, though i didn't know the term/concept at the time) and I hated any curves that appeared on me. So when I was younger I had a huge thing to become as thin as possible. I neglected my food intake and counted calories so I could stay as small as possible. When I became a teenager I went through a body positivity phase, where I tried to embrace the body I had and I honestly think it made me even more distant from it. I kept telling myself that nothing was wrong with my body and other people were happy and gorgeous with bodies like mine. So I mimicked them and played dress up, essentially, starting to see my body as more of an object than anything else that I paraded around to get attention.

This led to severe bouts of depression and anxiety when I grew into an older teen. I felt a sense of loss within myself, as if I couldn't recognize who I was, but I still couldn't quite figure out why. But the more and more that I tried to push myself into femininity and showing off my feminine aspects, the more uncomfortable and despondent I felt. I also completely tried to shut out my feelings of wanting to be male/seen as male/be recognized as one of the guys again because I felt that was impossible and I'd never attain it.

Later on, after I realized I was trans, I still went back and forth trying to be a girl for the longest time because my family was a huge obstacle and I knew they'd never accept it. But it got even worse, so every time I tried to force myself to act like a "normal girl" (at this point in time I was actually trying to be normal and fit in), my mental health got even worse and I started having suicidal thoughts and self-harming. And at that point I just kind of gave up and realized there was no way around it.

Also, that warning about birth control that Cloudchamber posted is a good one to consider for FTMs. When I started dating my first boyfriend I went on birth control as a preventative and it made my dysphoria flare up really badly. My mood swings were out of control and I wanted to violently harm people. Also the whole bigger chest and body fat thing wasn't good for me either. And popping a pill a day reminded me that I had internal reproductive organs that I'd rather not have so it sent me into severe panic attacks until I could disassociate from it.

Birth control, def sucks, it made my chest go up one cup size, which I hate, so if someone is serious about transitioning then no to birth control

On another note, does anyone know how long the birth control and its estrogen effects have to be out of your system I guess before starting T? I'm just curious, cause I recently stopped my bc and I'm still seeing a therapist (no t letter yet), but was wondering if this would have any effect? The main reason funny enough that I was put on birth control pills was because my testosterone levels were higher than normal for females (lol go figure)and the birth control was suppose to make me "normal" in a sense.

Ryan 55: I know that birth control usually flushes completely from your body in two to three months- by then things should be in "normal mode" again. I'm exactly not sure how this would work in the context of taking T, but I imagine once you're back to normal you'd be good to go.

thanks cloud I appreciate the advice