When someone transitions and their partner doesn't want to stay in the marriage, that person is often talked about as if they're a terrible, unloving, ignorant, evil, cruel, selfish person. Phrases like "if they loved you unconditionally, they would have stayed" and "you deserve someone who loves you for who you are" get thrown around.

When you pretend to be someone you're not, even if it's subconscious and you're not yet fully aware that you're transgender, your partner falls in love with someone who is not real. They fall in love with a costume, and sometimes that costume is drastically different from the real person inside, all the way down to interests, personality and religion. When your partner finds out that the person they fell in love with does not exist, how is it fair to expect them to show unconditional love to the real you, who they have just met and have never known before?

Sometimes your partner will fall in love with you all over again, but this is extremely rare if his or her sexual orientation does not line up with the real you. Orientation is just as real and valid as gender. How is it fair to expect your partner to give up their identity so you can have yours, then act like they're horrible, unloving people when that's not something they can cope with? If you can't cope with living as someone you're not, why should they have to?

This is not directed toward any particular person. This is a trend I've noticed for a long time, long before I ever joined any internet communities.

Declan
I agree with your observation but suggest that for many of us we didn't engage in subterfuge when selecting our life partners.  We were as honest and as open as we could be.  If we had issues re our identity at least for me it was a shadow, a potential but manageable urge or fetish.  I certainly didn't know it was much, much more than this.
Indeed I expected that my wife would also learn and reveal more of herself to me as she grew, changed, had new experiences and our relationship deepened.
What I hadn't anticipated was the growing dysphoria, finding a name for my disquiet, my unease and for my growing panic.  What I didn't anticipate was that the marriage of kindred spirits as life partners would be fundamentally challenged by sharing this knowledge, by the imagined or potential reaction of others, the fear of partner or parental embarrassment and ultimatums, and by the lack of understanding and support available to our partners etc
I guess that what I am saying is,  that for me I am not blaming anyone.  It is what it is.  I respect and try to love every person in my life.  I have learned to forgive myself and perhaps most importantly to forgive others.  It wasn't until I did this that I was able to progress and to move on.
Safe travels
Aisla

Very eloquent disription of a complex issue. I also have thought a few of these things. and recently had a bit of personal experience with disclosing my transition to an ex girlfriend. I initiated the contact (something I never have done with any of my exes) not in the interest of reuniting with her. But to thank her for helping me form an important insight and to let her know her view point was very correct. When I first met Laurel* she was Everything I loved in Women, then I noticed she was also a Lesbian, but a really fun person after a year of seeing her Either on Campus or at Pride functions (I am openly Bisexual) we began dating. She said she's not sure why, but only that she found me intriguing. She had a hard time with her lesbian friends they were cold to me and a few were out right mean. That put some pressure on our relationship. In the end we broke up not over the mater of our sexual incompatibility, as she realized and began Identifying as Bisexual but because of  our Age Gap and career intentions. When I Spoke with Laurel again I asked her if she had fallen for the Male aspect or my feminine aspect and she told me it was the feminine side that drew her to me and if she had met me as a trans woman might not have been interested because of the amount of blowback she would have faced from dating a transgirl.
we parted friends and she calls from time to time to "thought check" (a interpersonal thing we used to do together) things with me. I sometimes wish there wasn't a 12 year gap between us, and sometimes it makes my dysphoria worse, I have a hard time not thinking the "What if's" had I been born into a woman's body, would I never have lost Laurel? but that's false thinking, I would have never gotten together with her, and she'd never have come to peace being Bisexual, she would have languished in the middle trying to determine where she was on the orientation spectrum

And I learned what I like in partners.
*not real name

Quote from: Declan. on February 15, 2014, 04:19:25 PM
When someone transitions and their partner doesn't want to stay in the marriage, that person is often talked about as if they're a terrible, unloving, ignorant, evil, cruel, selfish person. Phrases like "if they loved you unconditionally, they would have stayed" and "you deserve someone who loves you for who you are" get thrown around.

When you pretend to be someone you're not, even if it's subconscious and you're not yet fully aware that you're transgender, your partner falls in love with someone who is not real. They fall in love with a costume, and sometimes that costume is drastically different from the real person inside, all the way down to interests, personality and religion. When your partner finds out that the person they fell in love with does not exist, how is it fair to expect them to show unconditional love to the real you, who they have just met and have never known before?

Sometimes your partner will fall in love with you all over again, but this is extremely rare if his or her sexual orientation does not line up with the real you. Orientation is just as real and valid as gender. How is it fair to expect your partner to give up their identity so you can have yours, then act like they're horrible, unloving people when that's not something they can cope with? If you can't cope with living as someone you're not, why should they have to?

This is not directed toward any particular person. This is a trend I've noticed for a long time, long before I ever joined any internet communities.

You are making a "straw man" argument.  It is fallacious.

It is not "extremely rare" for couples to stay together when one begins to transition.  We have many examples of couples who stayed together on this site.  It takes work and understanding.

Transitioners tend to take the blame when a relationship does end, not only from themselves, but from society in general.

Did we really "pretend" to be something we were not, or were we trying to fit in the gender roles that were more or less forced on us?

The transitioner never "did not exist."  No one should ever be expected to give up their identity or sexual orientation, whether they are the transitioner or the significant other.  I have found emotional bonds transcend identity or orientation.

I don't see anything "eloquent" about your post.

Jamie
A tough but very fair and balanced response and it caused me wonder why I have always felt that if someone was upset or critical of me that it was my issue and that it was most likely to be my fault.   It could have been due to my catholic upbringing, my parents or unconscious choice and a desire to escape notice but it hasn't helped me see clearly or to form and sustain strong and adult relationships with myself and others.
Aisla

And I would disagree with this being compared to a Straw man argument. the Irony of attacking an opposing view point by calling it a straw man, then placing your own view point in it's place is rather poor form, and the literal definition of "Straw man fallacy"

yes there are some folks that are able to stay together through a transition and yes it does require work. they are a very small minority (small enough to be considered "extremely rare") among Transgender folk.
I am of the same view of Declan. In my experience, I hear many transgender folk talk about the different pressures to keep living the pretend life to keep all the others happy even if it means loosing their Identity of self. How many Transgender people don't transition? My suspicion is it's alot more than do. and I also suspect that on the top of the list is from caving into the pressure of how their significant others will perceive them, or the negative impact on the prospects of finding a partner.

I think the basis of the issue lies in the cognitive dissonance of having an internal perception of self and the lack of reciprocated affirmation of emerging Identity.
and somehow it makes me think of the duet from Cinderella:

Prince: Do I love you because you're beautiful, or are you beautiful because I love you?
Am I making believe I see in you a girl too lovely to be really true?
Do I want you because you're wonderful, or are you wonderful because I want you?
Are you the sweet invention of a lover's dream or are you really as beautiful as you seem?

I am drawn to the intangible and unquantifiable aspect of both love and personalities, and why I have hope for love, as illogical as it seems to me; there is some one that can love the true me, even when I have no Idea who that someone sees. 

Mercedes, this was the premise:

When someone transitions and their partner doesn't want to stay in the marriage, that person is often talked about as if they're a terrible, unloving, ignorant, evil, cruel, selfish person. Phrases like "if they loved you unconditionally, they would have stayed" and "you deserve someone who loves you for who you are" get thrown around.

It is an allegation that has no basis in fact.  It attempts to characterize a position and then criticizes it.

We have enough "guilt trips" without being criticized for being fakes.  I can see no reason why the post is even on a support site.

Quote from: Declan. on February 15, 2014, 04:19:25 PM
When you pretend to be someone you're not, even if it's subconscious and you're not yet fully aware that you're transgender, your partner falls in love with someone who is not real. They fall in love with a costume, and sometimes that costume is drastically different from the real person inside, all the way down to interests, personality and religion. When your partner finds out that the person they fell in love with does not exist, how is it fair to expect them to show unconditional love to the real you, who they have just met and have never known before?

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. I'm not sure anyone is that good of a performer to even convince themselves, let alone someone they've chosen to let into the deepest parts of their life. Perhaps sometimes, someone does fall in love with a 'costume', as you put it. But every costume needs someone wearing it, inside it, to make it do more than sit there, flapping in the breeze. And I'm not entirely sure that everyone, or even most people, fall in love with something purely physical. Is there really nothing there of the person one fell in love with? Nothing at all? I'm not so sure.

Also, something I've observed is that we are not solely responsible for the construction of a perceptual image of ourselves inside the mind of someone else. Some of that comes from the receiver as well as the transmitter, through their own filters of assimilation, preconception, projection and idealisation. Sometimes we don't have to pretend anything for someone else to see what, or who they want to see rather than what's actually there. You think you know someone, as it were. The key words there being "You think".

Partners aren't bad people - that applies to both partners. Each relationship is different, and the only people who really know the dynamics of what goes on within it are those involved in it. Blame is ultimately futile, and achieves little other than to harbour resentment and bad feeling. From all sides.

Jamie,
And I disagree with It being an "allegation that has no basis in fact." And the reason I disagree is It is in my experience a very real occurrence, (I and others I have spoken with expressed instances exactly like he was describing) and perhaps others on this site deal with. Additionally The fact that it is voiced on a support site means it is very much a topic of discussion and consequently a matter of importance to Transgender people.

if you feel differently explain why, just to say it isn't true and promotes a negative stereotype, then stating it's invalidity merits not even being mentioned here is not debate or public discourse.

Well, I've certainly seen accusations like that hurled at partners, and my wife (who tries her best to be there for other partners now) has seen even more of it. I'm also in complete agreement that sometimes the partner's orientation simply doesn't line up with the transitioning person's target gender and that's a tragedy that is no one's fault. It's heartbreaking enough without suggesting that someone ought to be able to simply force their sexual orientation to change or else they're transphobic or bigots or generally bad people.

On the other hand... I dunno, I'm still me. I have the same interests, personality, and general outlook on life that I did before; I don't think I was lying before, and my wife ALSO gets very upset when someone suggests that our entire life together pre-transition was fake or a lie. I think people's lives are varied, and there's no way to sum up every trans* person's experience, much less their partner's.

Then again, it might be fair to claim that this is not a support site for partners, too. It's an incidental goal, and some do find help here, but that's not its primary purpose.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on February 15, 2014, 09:05:25 PM
On the other hand... I dunno, I'm still me. I have the same interests, personality, and general outlook on life that I did before; I don't think I was lying before, and my wife ALSO gets very upset when someone suggests that our entire life together pre-transition was fake or a lie. I think people's lives are varied, and there's no way to sum up every trans* person's experience, much less their partner's.

I think that's true in a lot of cases, which is great. I'm really talking about those of us who have gone through a severe personality change. If your partner just looks different as a result of transition, I can't imagine that being nearly as traumatic for a marriage as your partner's entire personality doing a 180. For example, I've always been the same person in the way I act/personality/interests/thoughts/etc. I look different now, and I'm mellower, but that's it.

On the other hand, I know a woman whose partner for decades transitioned and had a different experience. She went from being a classic "macho man" who was obsessed with big rigs and football to a woman who was very feminine and softspoken, a classic lady. Their marriage did not last, even though she held on for a very long time and tried as hard as she could to make it work in spite of the toll it was taking on her. She was treated like a terrible person as a result by everyone from her partner to their therapist and support group. I posted this thread with her on my heart since I've seen so many posts that show little to no concern for partners - usually not from the transitioner, but from people offering "support" for them.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on February 15, 2014, 09:05:25 PM

Then again, it might be fair to claim that this is not a support site for partners, too. It's an incidental goal, and some do find help here, but that's not its primary purpose.

Well, it is for partners too. But some on either side may be going through a hard time and vent here - and maybe that's where it may come off someone is blaming their spouse. People need to feel free to vent and get feedback. Anyway, I think the general feeling is that the trans person is the bad guy for transitioning, not the spouse. It may seem the other way around in trans spaces, though I really haven't seen it.

Quote from: Declan. on February 15, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
I think that's true in a lot of cases, which is great. I'm really talking about those of us who have gone through a severe personality change. If your partner just looks different as a result of transition, I can't imagine that being nearly as traumatic for a marriage as your partner's entire personality doing a 180. For example, I've always been the same person in the way I act/personality/interests/thoughts/etc. I look different now, and I'm mellower, but that's it.

On the other hand, I know a woman whose partner for decades transitioned and had a different experience. She went from being a classic "macho man" who was obsessed with big rigs and football to a woman who was very feminine and softspoken, a classic lady. Their marriage did not last, even though she held on for a very long time and tried as hard as she could to make it work in spite of the toll it was taking on her. She was treated like a terrible person as a result by everyone from her partner to their therapist and support group. I posted this thread with her on my heart since I've seen so many posts that show little to no concern for partners - usually not from the transitioner, but from people offering "support" for them.

I agree, the spouse of the transwomen has legitimate issues, she isn't a lesbian and is now in a lesbian relationship. it is, as you said, tragic.

Quote from: Mercédes on February 15, 2014, 08:33:11 PM
Jamie,
And I disagree with It being an "allegation that has no basis in fact." And the reason I disagree is It is in my experience a very real occurrence, (I and others I have spoken with expressed instances exactly like he was describing) and perhaps others on this site deal with. Additionally The fact that it is voiced on a support site means it is very much a topic of discussion and consequently a matter of importance to Transgender people.

if you feel differently explain why, just to say it isn't true and promotes a negative stereotype, then stating it's invalidity merits not even being mentioned here is not debate or public discourse.

I'm not going to kick a dead horse.  The accusations are offensive on their face.

If Declan wanted to state their opinion that Significant Others should not be bad-mouthed when a relationship goes south, that's one thing.  However, Declan stated that the S.O. is "often talked about" in disparaging ways ("terrible, unloving, ignorant, evil, cruel, selfish person").  Highly charged words and not true.  It may happen, but not "often."  I know in my 18 months of moderating this site, I never saw it happen, and if I had, I would have deleted the post.

What I have seen is transitioners taking responsibility and blame and hurting tremendously for break-ups.  "Personalities doing a 180 [degree turn]" - Really?  "Often"? I think not.  I have seen transpeople and their SO's in pain over this issue.  It should not be trivialized with innuendo.

Then Declan doubled down by assigning blame entirely to the transitioner.  Unfair.  Inaccurate.  Offensive.  And one observed case does not a trend make.

You don't really support an S.O. by tearing down the transperson.

Sherman Leis, a Bala Cynwyd plastic surgeon who has performed gender-transition surgery on more than 2,000 people since 2005, says the rate of divorce among trans adults is about the same as that of the general population. The 2011 transgender survey supports his observations: About half of intimate relationships survived the transgender partner's "coming out" or transition.

"In some cases, a partner will say, 'I married him or her for better or for worse,' " says Kyle Schultz, staff therapist at Philadelphia's Council for Relationships. They say, " 'What I love is not that she is male or female. It is that he is gentle . . . kind . . . a good parent.' "

Gender transitioning can test family bonds

Jamie, you misunderstood me quite a bit.

As I said in the first post, this is something I've seen for "a long time, long before I ever joined any internet communities." Just because you haven't seen it "often" on Susan's does not mean that's not true. If I'd said "sometimes" as opposed to "often," nothing about my post would be any different.

If you don't want to think personalities sometimes do a 180, that's fine. That's your observation. Did I say that happens "often" or even "frequently"? No. Why are you assuming this is "one observed case"? How do you know how many times I've seen this? How can you say my perspective isn't valid while yours is simply because what I've seen and heard contradicts your experience?

I didn't assign blame to anybody. Nobody should be blamed for this. It is not the transitioner's fault for realizing he or she can no longer keep "living a lie," and it is not the partner's fault for no longer being able to thrive in the marriage. If you thought I was blaming the transitioner, either I was very unclear or you misunderstood that as well. In fact, in my last post, I mentioned that this is something I usually see from the people around the transitioner who are offering "support" as opposed to the transitioner himself/herself. The only "blame" anyone deserves is if they're deliberately treating their spouse poorly, and that could happen with either party.

Marriages break down for a variety of reasons and those reasons will often be complex, playing the 'Blame game' usually isn't really necessary but it will often be played out by both sides of the parting individuals

Neither person is the 'Bad person' for wishing to move on with their lives in another direction, but will often look for and/or find justification for doing so

One can only hope for both parties to behave in a civil manor and not turn the break up into a 'War of the Roses' type of conflict

Just some of my thoughts

Hugs

It takes two to make a relationship stay together. My ex was unable to deal with my transition, so she left me. It's just that simple. Back when we dutifully went through marriage counselling all the counselling did was clarify in very quantifiable terms why we were unable to stay together.
As a -couple- we could not come to a solution that was positive to both of us, or, beneficial to either family. In standard western tradition non-positive outcomes are discarded. No kids were involved so be it.

Quote from: Declan. on February 15, 2014, 04:19:25 PM
When someone transitions and their partner doesn't want to stay in the marriage, that person is often talked about as if they're a terrible, unloving, ignorant, evil, cruel, selfish person. Phrases like "if they loved you unconditionally, they would have stayed" and "you deserve someone who loves you for who you are" get thrown around.

When you pretend to be someone you're not, even if it's subconscious and you're not yet fully aware that you're transgender, your partner falls in love with someone who is not real. They fall in love with a costume, and sometimes that costume is drastically different from the real person inside, all the way down to interests, personality and religion. When your partner finds out that the person they fell in love with does not exist, how is it fair to expect them to show unconditional love to the real you, who they have just met and have never known before?

Sometimes your partner will fall in love with you all over again, but this is extremely rare if his or her sexual orientation does not line up with the real you. Orientation is just as real and valid as gender. How is it fair to expect your partner to give up their identity so you can have yours, then act like they're horrible, unloving people when that's not something they can cope with? If you can't cope with living as someone you're not, why should they have to?

This is not directed toward any particular person. This is a trend I've noticed for a long time, long before I ever joined any internet communities.

This is so true! Yes, I've seen that happen IRL and online too...a MTF transitioner turning the spouse into 'a costume' with no personality or will or sexual preference or emotions of herself anymore.

Quote from: Mercédes on February 15, 2014, 10:36:50 PM
I agree, the spouse of the transwomen has legitimate issues, she isn't a lesbian and is now in a lesbian relationship. it is, as you said, tragic.

True! But very sadly the 'newly created' 'lesbian' stays with the MTF for the sake of their children, most certainly not for her own sake, let alone her choice.

I personally know 2 middle aged men whose fathers transioned to MTF during the mid/late 70's...and who are having an empty shell for a biological mother/left over.

Those 2 guys are suffering from deep depression, sometimes psychoses.
Both are very clear about what caused it; the mayhem and emotional hell they were put through and the totally confused and depressed mother during and after the MTF transition of their father.
Both were very young adolescents when their father transitioned.

Both mothers divorced their MTF spouses after a long, heavy (emotional) struggle. And of course, were accused of being 'selfish' etc.

Fathers and mothers are in their early/mid 80's now, fathers transitioned in their mid/late 40's during the mid/late 1970's.

The (now adult) children of MTF who transitioned 15/20/25/30/40 years ago are only heard nowadays, telling their (mentally and emotionally) gruesome) stories.

Recently a  Dutch book written by the daughter of a MTF father was released and a TV interview followed.

Her story about her brothers left out from their fathers transition and she way too heavily involved 'because she was 'a developing (adolescent) woman too', sent shivers down my spine. Especially because the daughter 'got involved' because of the unwilling and refusing mother, who filed for divorce.

The most chilling and gruesome end of the book is the father detransitioning to male...and involving again the daughter with the new 'evolving' secret about being unhappy  as a post op MTF/woman.....after ten years.

The name of the daughter, the writer of the book, who broke off all contact with her father is Sabine van den Berg.

Don't know if the book is translated for the English market btw. The title is 'Wissel'(change)


Here's some quotes from myself in similar threads:

QuoteI've only read once about an aging MTF who went into transition after her children were grown up and her wife passed away.

I found it very touching to read about her selfsacrifice not to transition during their marriage for the love of her wife.
She just didn't want cause grief to her wife.

Her wife was aware of her TS feelings during her life.

QuoteQuote from: Cindy James on July 31, 2012, 12:38:11 pm

You are way off; I know several. I'm not sure I accept the 'aging' bit. I'm no spring bunny but I don't need the walking frame as yet.

Cindy

She was in her 70's when she started her transition after her wife passed away...during a 50+ marriage.

It was an incredible unselfish, selfsacrifising thing to do; not transitioning during her marriage in order not to hurt her wife, who, after all married a man she loved.

And she loved her.

P.s: I'm a MTF into (masculine) men only and I identify with women...so I can imagine what living hell a straight woman goes through when her (very)(masculine)(unsuspected) husband turns out to be a MTF.

There is no doubt that the non transitioning partner who does not decide to remain in their marriage is often characterised as selfish etc.   However it appears to be more often the case that the transitioning partner is demonised and characterised as dishonest, selfish etc.
The fact remains that relationships are challenged by any change in circumstance, a change in gender presentation or full transition to address gender dysphoria is not a whimsy but is often the only way that many can function or indeed survive.  For the transitioner to find that just at the point that they are most vulnerable that their life partner cannot or will not support their transition is extremely hurtful, particularly if children are involved and nastiness creeps in.
Of course rejection because of their discomfort or inability to continue to partner in what they now see as a same sex relationship is understandable.  However if blackmail, insult and anger is hurled at the transitioner it is not acceptable.  At a minimum civility and respect should be the norm rather than the exception.  Both parties will be hurt at the loss of their dreams, loss of their best friend and fellow traveller but I don't accept that the non transitioning partner is demonised on this forum  with any greater frequency than the transitioning partner.  This I find surprising given that I would have expected to have seen the former but this is not the case - there is hurt and folk wish to apportion blame.  It is unhelpful.  It is what it is.  Better a constructive and respectful resolution and agreed path forward than seeking to blame or to vilify either of the parties involved.

Maybe I am a bad person, but in my view anyone who leaves me is the bad person. I have empathy, and surely something like being TG is a reason I can understand someone leaving over. Someone getting to know me, loving me, and then rejecting me; however is something much harder to swallow. I deserve love, and if someone no longer wants to love me, especially after declaring those feelings, especially after saying "forever" well in my view they are the bad one.

I lost my wife for reasons outside of being TG (though surely it contributed). I still blame her. From a totally objective viewer perhaps we both could have tried harder, after all her life became the club and concerts and I would tell her to go alone if she wanted to go because it wasn't my scene at all. From my view though, I was in the right and she was in the wrong period. She broke her vows and decided to leave, and I didn't (and likely never would after all I said forever) which means if nothing else but to protect my own ego from that crushing sense of rejection that comes from losing a ten year relationship, I would always view such a choice with disdain.

People can call me self centered or narcissistic but, I have had friendships after breakups, and I have learned from my mistakes, but none of that is going to make me view someone in a positive light for leaving me. I am absolutely the most important thing in my world, and I protect my own heart. I refuse to look down on myself for being how I am, I refuse to consider myself a partner worthy of rejection and anyone who would reject me after promising me forever, isn't going to get a glowing review from me.

Maybe all that makes me a "bad person" or arrogant, but I am not sure I care.