Hello. I hesitated quite some time before deciding to share my situation hoping to come to a better understanding of the trans community. I hope I can express myself well enough to not be mistaken.

I'm struggling with a situation that comes as a culmination of all my contacts in life with mtf trans persons and the fact that they have all had elements of sexual inappropriate ness. I've been called a bigot for being upset  about what happened today. I came here searching for some answers and I guess to explain I should start at the beginning.

My first mtf contact was online several years ago. The person identified herself as a lesbian female. Over the course of a few weeks she kept slipping comments into conversations of a sexual nature. Not being interested I said so, but did not cut off contact due to recognizing that this person had some issues and could probably use a friend. Eventually cut off contact when it became clear that what was a level of sexual harrasment would not stop. Later learned of her preop mtf status.
Fast forward a few years, and I'm out in public at a library and a non passing mtf transexual (she identified as such which I knew due to the fact that it was written in glitter across her hat) sits across from me at the table. I look up and say hello politely and go back to my homework. After a minute or so she strikes up a conversation about the internet connection, then transitions it suddenly to a monologue about men not understanding women's needs sexually. Who does that with a stranger seriously?
Fast forward some more and in a strange public encounter another stranger, an mtf decides to walk up and ask me how their breasts look. Gape mouthed and stunned for a good 30 seconds I finally reply with "that's an awkward question" and walk away.
And finally today, a preop bottom mtf transgender in my health club locker room while I'm dressing, obviously sexually aroused.

All of these put together have created a downward spiral in my opinion of the community. I feel violated in the same way I do when a man passing by says nice rack or a lesbian friend doesn't respect my no answer. I feel angry for being characterized as a bigot for wanting to feel sexually safe.
And ultimately I'm left asking the question on Google that brought me yo this site, why are these mtf people I have met  all about sex. I've never had a cis female who was a stranger try to talk to me about sex or ask me to comment on their breasts. Most lesbians I've known have easily taken not interested for an answer and definitely didn't put their sexuality on display in vulnerable situations.

So all that being said,  the only theory I could come up with was that maybe this is the stereotypes an mtf comes to femininity with and doesn't understand the "circle" when it comes to discussing private things? Meaning friends may have conversations that invade personal space but its not just any other person of that gender.

So what am I missing here? Why do all my mtf interactions have this strange personal boundary issues? How do I support equality without having my own safety violated? And why is it not ok with the politically correct crowd for me to have an issue with an erection in proximity to my naked body without permission just because the owner identifies as fem?


-confused and... A lot of other things

You are just finding the bad apples somehow. Most of us want to quietly blend in and just live. I have met some of the girls you talk about and rest assured, this is not how the biggest majority of us act at all. If you read the postings here we do not want to attract attention like this as it makes us a BIG target for all kinds of abuse and danger. Most of us just want to work, pay bills, live out lives and have a normal existence. I would be just as horrified being approached by these inappropriate types myself. It is just a case of there always being one in every bunch. Please don't put us in the same category as the one's you have met. Most of us you pass on the street every day and will never know it. Jerks will be everywhere you go anymore. I hope this helps.

You have certainly met some strange and inappropriate transsexuals.

The aroused pre-op in the locker room takes the cake.  Of course all the examples you give are outrageous.  The all take a lot of brashness.

I would like to suggest that have probably met a lot more MTF transsexuals, but just weren't aware of them. Most are incredible shy and very unlikely to call attention to themselves in any way at all. 

It saddens us that when we see people on the Jerry Springer show behaving in outrageous ways.

What you have seen is the very ugly tip or a much larger hidden iceberg.  You've also seen men in suits who are wearing frilly underwear underneath.  You've seen transwomen who pass so well they never arouse suspicion. You've seen very masculine women who don't pass well, but you will never know for sure how they were born.

Randi

Quote from: locame on February 18, 2014, 12:17:03 AM
I'm struggling with a situation that comes as a culmination of all my contacts in life with mtf trans persons and the fact that they have all had elements of sexual inappropriate ness.

Quote from: Randi on February 18, 2014, 12:44:08 AM
The aroused pre-op in the locker room takes the cake.

No kidding Randi! WOW!

Locame, another reason we do not act this way is like where I live. We have to get what is called a "carry letter" to use female facilities. If we acted this way it would be revoked immediately and our psychologist's notified. This could effect any future transitional related procedures and could get us dropped without any future assistance from our therapist's and we need them for other letters like Hormone Replacement Therapy and Sexual Reassignment Surgery. I would report behavior like you witnessed to the facility management team ASAP.

You both raised a point I hadn't really thought of. You're right that I have likely met others and just didn't know. There were a couple of others I did know by were elderly and not at all weird.

And yeah, I don't really pay attention I suppose unless the person calls it to my attention. Some reading here did show me that it wasn't all what I had experienced. An yeah, the other incidents while uncomfortable were not the equal of today. As I said, the worst part being feeling blamed for being uncomfortable. My only response calmly though i didnt feel xalm, was to verbally was to suggest one of the private dressing areas since the women and children's room wasn't the place for a sexualized environment. You would have thought I had preached fire and brimstone by her and her friends reaction. Still a little shaken up I guess. Yes, I realize not every penis is out to rape, but it seems only a logical thing to keep things nonsexualized in a public area.

Fyi I did report and ended up getting a "we'll look into it".

I hope we have painted a little better light of our community for you? If not just ask more questions as we will be happy to answer them for you. Some of the inappropriate ones more than likely are possibly self medicating because they have been turned down by the medical community for not being all that stable. Don't get me wrong here, not ALL self medicators are irresponsible though, but it sounds like the ones you have run into possible have denying psychological issues for proper transition. Just my opinion though.

The majority of MTF are into women (only), very often have a (very) masculine nature and sometimes behave like straight men..


I couldn't get my head around it when I came out  as a MTF (whose  into masculine men only) but gotten used to it and learned to avoid them IRL....since some of them don't and won't understand I'm not into women at all.

I attended a MTF meeting a couple of years ago...a middle aged MTF chatted me up and asked if I had SRS....to my 'no, I haven't' she responded to my astonishment with 'oh, so you still can have intercourse with your wife'

It turned out to be unnecessary to explain I wasn't into women at all, let alone married to one; she didn't understand.
Like many lesbian MTF, bi and straight men refuse to believe I was never with a woman for the simple reason I'm not into women at all thus never 'tried'  too.

I felt violated on many occasions too...especially when ex straight/lesbian MTF turn out to be homophobic and calling MTF who are into men only 'sex change queers' etc....when I turned down their 'hitting on me'..
And yes, I've called a 'bigot' too when I turned down MTF and 'straight' men who turned out to be (fetish) tv's, cd's or even pre MTF themselves.

I am MAAB. but living as a girl and this has been my experience too at every turn.. :/  lots of sexual harrassment and inapropriateness going on inside the community too.. (that includes on this site in PMs or often just overtly) makes me feel uncomfortable being here and not want to be associated with trans people. I hate that I have to feel that way but I am not OK with this stuff at all. I think a lot of MAAB people just don't understand what is appropriate. Idk.. it's the elephant in the room and I'm just sick of ignoring it.

Quote from: Randi on February 18, 2014, 12:44:08 AM
You have certainly met some strange and inappropriate transsexuals.

The aroused pre-op in the locker room takes the cake.  Of course all the examples you give are outrageous.  The all take a lot of brashness.

I would like to suggest that have probably met a lot more MTF transsexuals, but just weren't aware of them. Most are incredible shy and very unlikely to call attention to themselves in any way at all. 

It saddens us that when we see people on the Jerry Springer show behaving in outrageous ways.

What you have seen is the very ugly tip or a much larger hidden iceberg.  You've also seen men in suits who are wearing frilly underwear underneath.  You've seen transwomen who pass so well they never arouse suspicion. You've seen very masculine women who don't pass well, but you will never know for sure how they were born.

Randi

Your avatar and quote are an example of the problem. :/ maybe you have to think of women as human beings to understand any of this.

Quote from: Dahlia on February 18, 2014, 01:30:12 AM
The majority of MTF are into women (only), very often have a (very) masculine nature and sometimes behave like straight men..


I couldn't get my head around it when I came out  as a MTF (whose  into masculine men only) but gotten used to it and learned to avoid them IRL....since some of them don't and won't understand I'm not into women at all.

I attended a MTF meeting a couple of years ago...a middle aged MTF chatted me up and asked if I had SRS....to my 'no, I haven't' she responded to my astonishment with 'oh, so you still can have intercourse with your wife'

It turned out to be unnecessary to explain I wasn't into women at all, let alone married to one; she didn't understand.

I felt violated too...especially when ex straight/lesbian MTF turn out to be homophobic and calling MTF who are into men only 'sex change queers' etc....when I turned down their 'hitting on me'..

I remember I posted a pic of my cat once and a member (30 yrs older than me?)sent me an unsolicited message with a pic of them in lingerie that happened to have their cat in it. they were like, I can't post this in public heheh. So gross....

Well..


For encounter Number one! I would say this person may not have been on HRT.. You see~ From the effects of Tesosterone.. it could have pushed that person over the edge and all she wanted was sexsexsex.

#2 Just... So weird. There is an effect among us, I have observed that we strongly strongly try to overdo the femininity thing. Which isn't wrong initself! Some girls are that way. But there are some I've noticed that try so hard they are just copying things they saw in TV shows..


#3 idk even. I don't even have a explaination for that one.


I do however understand your.. concern. We are far from a homogenous type of community~ I would say.. you're not a bigot for disliking these people, doing these weird things.. I just hope you don't lump them together with us. I hope you'll get to see some positive experiences as well!

Geez, just thinking about doing any of those things makes me want to hide my face in shame. Sex is nice and all but there's a time and place and just because you're comfortable doing something, that doesn't mean everyone around you is comfortable with you doing it. I sincerely apologize for what happened, and as the others have stated before, I would like to say the majority of us are nothing like that and try our hardest to lay low. You just unfortunately seem to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people multiple times.

Quote from: locame on February 18, 2014, 12:17:03 AM
Hello. I hesitated quite some time before deciding to share my situation hoping to come to a better understanding of the trans community. I hope I can express myself well enough to not be mistaken.

I'm struggling with a situation that comes as a culmination of all my contacts in life with mtf trans persons and the fact that they have all had elements of sexual inappropriate ness. I've been called a bigot for being upset  about what happened today. I came here searching for some answers and I guess to explain I should start at the beginning.

My first mtf contact was online several years ago. The person identified herself as a lesbian female. Over the course of a few weeks she kept slipping comments into conversations of a sexual nature. Not being interested I said so, but did not cut off contact due to recognizing that this person had some issues and could probably use a friend. Eventually cut off contact when it became clear that what was a level of sexual harrasment would not stop. Later learned of her preop mtf status.
Fast forward a few years, and I'm out in public at a library and a non passing mtf transexual (she identified as such which I knew due to the fact that it was written in glitter across her hat) sits across from me at the table. I look up and say hello politely and go back to my homework. After a minute or so she strikes up a conversation about the internet connection, then transitions it suddenly to a monologue about men not understanding women's needs sexually. Who does that with a stranger seriously?
Fast forward some more and in a strange public encounter another stranger, an mtf decides to walk up and ask me how their breasts look. Gape mouthed and stunned for a good 30 seconds I finally reply with "that's an awkward question" and walk away.
And finally today, a preop bottom mtf transgender in my health club locker room while I'm dressing, obviously sexually aroused.

All of these put together have created a downward spiral in my opinion of the community. I feel violated in the same way I do when a man passing by says nice rack or a lesbian friend doesn't respect my no answer. I feel angry for being characterized as a bigot for wanting to feel sexually safe.
And ultimately I'm left asking the question on Google that brought me yo this site, why are these mtf people I have met  all about sex. I've never had a cis female who was a stranger try to talk to me about sex or ask me to comment on their breasts. Most lesbians I've known have easily taken not interested for an answer and definitely didn't put their sexuality on display in vulnerable situations.

So all that being said,  the only theory I could come up with was that maybe this is the stereotypes an mtf comes to femininity with and doesn't understand the "circle" when it comes to discussing private things? Meaning friends may have conversations that invade personal space but its not just any other person of that gender.

So what am I missing here? Why do all my mtf interactions have this strange personal boundary issues? How do I support equality without having my own safety violated? And why is it not ok with the politically correct crowd for me to have an issue with an erection in proximity to my naked body without permission just because the owner identifies as fem?


-confused and... A lot of other things

Welcome to our world. This is confusing. So sorry these things have happened to you.

As others have stated, the sex thing is very weird. Usually, MTFs have a huge drop in libido and can control it better than an average male.

For me erections are quite rare, and without physical stimulation, unheard of.

A couple of your examples make me think those folks were not on hormone replacement therapy.

Social ackwardness does haunt many trans folk especially when they are alone. That too, may be an issue.

Finally, you sure have run into your share of trans folk. There are transitioners in this community who have not had as many encounters as you, let alone negative ones. Do you wear magnets or something? :p

Some topics on the non transition/detransition forum make an interesting read:

Quote from: retransition on January 28, 2014, 04:02:10 AM


I also think that a lot of transwomen have lost site of real and legitimate concerns of non trans women in regards to their own personal safety and psychological well being. I hate to admit this but I have to be honest— this is making me feel more and more uncomfortable being associated with the trans community. I don't define myself as a feminist but I can understand the reasons why there are many women (and this is not just restricted to feminists or radical feminists) who are sincerely uncomfortable with transwomen in female gendered spaces and this is something that we need to keep talking about and negotiating with all of the stakeholders in this conversation.

I see more and more transwomen defining their penis as a "female organ", yet these same people fail to empathize with natal women (hell even other transwomen for that matter) who are now expected to be ok with potentially seeing a fully erect penis in a women's  locker room . Right now a prominent "gender activist" is setting out to debunk a story that surfaced of such a thing happening. (The report appeared in a letter submitted to an advice column in Toronto.)  Even though it now appears that there really was a woman who filed a complaint about this incident to her local YMCA, a lot of LGBT media is still repeating the accusation that the columnist and his paper deliberately fabricated this letter as part of some dark "transmisogynistic" conspiracy, thus tarnishing the name and reputation of the  journalist and his paper.  Of course, we don't know exactly what happened in that locker room and we can't be certain that the woman's accusations are correct.  The columnist, in his original column recognized this and, after writing some respectful things about trans people, went on to say that IF what she was reporting was correct, this was extremely rare. He was emphatic in expressing his opinion that transwomen are women "full stop" and have the absolute right to be in that locker room but stated the obvious—that the behavior she was reporting, IF true, was unacceptable.

Human biology being what it is, something like this is eventually going to happen and at that point we are all going to need to have an honest conversation. (Another common talking point is that once a transwoman starts HRT  the penis itself shrinks and no longer can become erect. For some this is true – but for many others, well ... not so much.) You can only go on censoring these types of stories for so long. Some of them are going to be true so I don't see discussing an advice column discussing how to handle this in a way that is respectful to both trans and non trans people is something we need to censor.

The most troubling aspect of this now being dismissed as a "trans-hoax" is the fact that I can't rule out the possibility that there is a woman who experienced something traumatic and the fact that the experience is now being "erased" and ridiculed.  Until we are absolutely sure this woman is "fictional" why would someone want to risk the possibility of victimizing a woman a second time?  How can anyone be ok with that?  Why would someone be comfortable risking doing that to someone?

I know that I am focusing on transwomen in this post but there is a reason for that. Being a pre-op/non-op transwoman being completely nude and visible in a women's locker room is fundamentally different than a pre-op/non-op transman in a men's. This is something that can't be legislated.  I am fairly certain that a naked and exposed pre-op/non-op transman in a men's locker room is likely to be worried about getting raped by the other men around him.  I don't think that the transwoman has the same concerns (although she might risk getting beaten up.)  It is important for me to add that I think that the majority of pre-op/non-op transwomen would be horrified to be seen by other women this way and are "modest"  and respectful enough to avoid these situations.  But when transwomen make the argument that they are no different in any significant way from a natal woman or that a transman is exactly the same thing as a natal man I have to challenge that.

Sadly you have run into some weirdos.I've met them too,the last one being an MTF who thought because I was wearing leather pants she could grab my ass.I gripped her throat either side of the windpipe and gave her a good squeeze and shake while saying "Hands off bitch". I was made out to be in the wrong for this.I've had my hair pulled hard enough to hurt to be told "Sorry thought it was a wig" like that's some excuse,I punched her out and was again made out to be in the wrong.I'm bi and have also been told that I'm disgusting for it.I've even been told that my favourite choice of music(metal and punk) was wrong for a "real" TS.

The sort of experience you had is the reason I won't go anywhere near a large trans event anymore. I'm a pretty non-sexual person and comments and behaviors of a sexual nature make me very uncomfortable. Not all of us are like that, but enough are that experiences like yours will likely continue. Just don't hold it against all of us.

Hi locame.

I'm genuinely sorry that you've experienced those situations. I would be just as shocked and in disbelief as you.

This is one big reason that I choose not to associate with the wider local trans community, except for one individual ( although we're in completely different worlds ). Being 'out' like that is not the way I want to live. The other reason being that I identify as female only, not trans, regardless of the obvious technicality. That's always been the case for me, and I lean towards being a feminist too.

So, as many have said, many of us just want nothing more than to live life, work, pay bills etc. That's the way I live.

Quote from: SammyRose on February 18, 2014, 04:32:18 AM
Hi locame.

I'm genuinely sorry that you've experienced those situations. I would be just as shocked and in disbelief as you.

This is one big reason that I choose not to associate with the wider local trans community, except for one individual ( although we're in completely different worlds ). Being 'out' like that is not the way I want to live. The other reason being that I identify as female only, not trans, regardless of the obvious technicality. That's always been the case for me, and I lean towards being a feminist too.

So, as many have said, many of us just want nothing more than to live life, work, pay bills etc. That's the way I live.

These are my thoughts as well, except I've been recently trying to stop isolating myself from the community in real life and get over my own transphobia which is very deeply ingrained in me.

Op, I hope you'll understand that there are many different sorts in the trans community and not all of us are like that.  To be honest, I've also had weird interactions with other trans women that made me feel uncomfortable, but I also met some really wonderful people.   Because this is a support forum, I'll hold some of my more controversial thoughts;however, I do sympathize with your experience and understand some of the confusion. Just keep in mind there are plenty of normal trans women out there who wish to lead a normal life taht would be just bewildered as you were by that behavior.   I know I would and am sure many others here would be to.  Thank you for coming here to gain some further insight before making a complete impression. 

Hey there,

If it can help, I've experienced way, way worse from women or (mostly) men in the subway at night, in the airport, in the library....

Quote from: ganjina on February 18, 2014, 06:38:47 AM
Hey there,

If it can help, I've experienced way, way worse from women or (mostly) men in the subway at night, in the airport, in the library....

That may be true, but inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior no matter the level or who it comes from.  We can't excuse it.  That being said, I'd like to think this applies to a small minority of our community and not representative of most of us in the transexual community.  Most I've met are not like that.