Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 08:32:26 AM
And frankly, I look at the leadership of Gender Rights Maryland in our local and national communities and I fear turning into them.  They are prominent, famous activists who believe in their prominence and local fame a little too much.  They have giant egos run amok.  And they have lost a lot of effectiveness as a result.

That's an affliction that affects leaders everywhere, right? If you have the confidence to think you can pull off something difficult and that people will follow you, that kind of confidence can easily lead to arrogance.

Still, uniting groups of people seems to require leadership of some sort or other, and the benefits often outweigh the problems that come with it. I can't think of examples where movement has happened without it. So I'm afraid when it comes to answering your original question (How do we build a stronger and more unified trans community?), leadership is all I've got.

I am reluctant to wade in here, but perhaps something can be done to assay my concerns.

Let me preface this by saying, I am generally a fan of both thephoenix and suzifrommd, and even though I live on the other side of the beltway I appreciate the work and effort that has gone into making the DMV region a better place to live if trans.

I try to have solidarity with people who have gender expression/identity or sexual orientation divergence. This only seems natural to me as solidarity generally is the best position. However, solidarity is a fairly vague concept and lets me get away with primary symbolic unity or calling for action to assist another group that I don't identify with but has some gender or orientation divergence from society at large.

I however, have serious problems relating to or associating with many groups of people. The people who Identify as Autogyniphillic, fetish crossdressers, and those who do porn for the fun not the money, etc all make me super uncomfortable. They make me exactly as uncomfortable as pushy cismen who whistle, yell or try to grope; or the ciswomen who think they have the right to touch anyone anywhere for any reason. So it isn't like an issue specific to the trans community, but just people who are hypersexual or push their fetish in public.

I know on an intellectual level, that if those sorts of people do things not directed at me that I don't really have the right to complain. Those sorts of people still make me really uncomfortable though, if it is the internet, pride parade, seeing them on a street, etc then I don't really feel that discomfort much, but to actively associate with them would just not work with me. In inclusive groups these sorts of people are almost always there, yet in groups strictly for transsexuals I seem to have a much easier time relating without feeling uncomfortable. This is part of the reason why I am not in any support groups despite there being quite a few in DC, MD and VA.

I come to Susan's because I feel that inclusive nature gives a better perspective and opinion than transsexuals alone, and it also fosters a more supportive environment for people to find who they are. On that sort of level I am fine with unity, but I just can't see me "in the trenches" so to speak with Autogyniphillics, et cetera.

I suppose my question is, exactly what do you mean as unity? If it is as simple as being nice, then I think I can handle that, if however, it would involve much more, I am not so sure I can or even would want to necessarily. I don't resent or hate the people who make me uncomfortable, but neither do I relate to them, nor wish deep associations with them.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I am reluctant to wade in here, but perhaps something can be done to assay my concerns.

Let me preface this by saying, I am generally a fan of both thephoenix and suzifrommd, and even though I live on the other side of the beltway I appreciate the work and effort that has gone into making the DMV region a better place to live if trans.

Now I'm wondering if we know each other!  Anyway, I'm glad you find something about me helpful to you.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I try to have solidarity with people who have gender expression/identity or sexual orientation divergence. This only seems natural to me as solidarity generally is the best position. However, solidarity is a fairly vague concept and lets me get away with primary symbolic unity or calling for action to assist another group that I don't identify with but has some gender or orientation divergence from society at large.

I however, have serious problems relating to or associating with many groups of people. The people who Identify as Autogyniphillic, fetish crossdressers, and those who do porn for the fun not the money, etc all make me super uncomfortable. They make me exactly as uncomfortable as pushy cismen who whistle, yell or try to grope; or the ciswomen who think they have the right to touch anyone anywhere for any reason. So it isn't like an issue specific to the trans community, but just people who are hypersexual or push their fetish in public.

The notion of  ->-bleeped-<- (sexual arousal by thinking of oneself as a woman) as a driver of transition seems pretty well discredited at this point.  But I wonder how you would know if you were talking to one of the few who believes in it?  Unless they come out and tell you . . . In which case, isn't the issue about whether you like the person because of their opinion rather than because of their identity?  Can't the issue be dealt with like any other?  Likewise, how do you know who does porn for fun?  Or who crossdressers because of a fetish?  I'm sorry I don't know much about these issues.

I'm not saying that people must go out and befriend everyone simply because they are on the trans* spectrum somewhere.  But I am saying that when you are part of a small, powerless minority--like trans* people--one very good way for the group to lift itself out of its plight is by helping one another.

That means respecting one another's identity.  No hate and fury like occurred in the ->-bleeped-<- thread in the mtf section.  All identities are okay, all identities are welcome.  We do not seek to control or decide what identities are acceptable because we are too often the victim of people doing that to us.  So . . . Have you hugged a trans* person who is different from you today?

That means looking for ways to help one another instead of tearing one another down.  If someone loses their job for being trans*, then let's do what we can to get them a new one.  Let's send our business to trans* friendly businesses and vote with our feet by walking out of unfriendly ones.  And situations like this year, where one trans* organization works to pass a bill to protect trans* people and another trans* organization launches a series of attack articles in the newspaper to air out their petty grievances should not happen.  Cooperation is way more cooler.

That means let's not hurt one another.  If we can't stand someone, then let's just walk away and let that person be.  Let's not try to personally destroy them.  Not all reactions to my speech were good.  Shortly after I gave it (and published a similarly themed article), I started getting phone calls telling me that a nationally known trans* activist who is also a doctor (a retired eye surgeon) was making phone calls to other LGBT orgs claiming that I am severely mentally ill and they should disregard anything I said.  It's one thing to disagree on the issues.  But that kind of thing has got to stop. 

But I'm talking about this at a macro, large scale community level.  I'm not in the business of telling people how to live their personal lives or approving or disapproving their social contacts.  A big part of what I'm saying really comes down to saying we ought to live and let live.  Tryjng to exert that kind of control would run contrary to living and letting live.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I know on an intellectual level, that if those sorts of people do things not directed at me that I don't really have the right to complain. Those sorts of people still make me really uncomfortable though, if it is the internet, pride parade, seeing them on a street, etc then I don't really feel that discomfort much, but to actively associate with them would just not work with me. In inclusive groups these sorts of people are almost always there, yet in groups strictly for transsexuals I seem to have a much easier time relating without feeling uncomfortable. This is part of the reason why I am not in any support groups despite there being quite a few in DC, MD and VA.

Hmmmmm.  Well, I think I've been to every single support group in DC/MD/NoVa, or at least all that are open to me.  The Second Friday group is so focused on transsexuals that I have had to scold them several times for calling me one.  It's basically an exclusively mtf ts group.  MAGIC is pretty much all mtf ts as well, with occasional ftm ts folk and a rare genderqueer person who never seems to come twice.  My own org is full of all kinds of identities and is probably the best group in the area for non-binary identities and others outside the usual.  But it has none of the people you are describing. 

I've heard TGEA described that way and I can kind of see why.  But other than that, I do not know of a single trans* group in the area that would be anything like what you are describing.  Could it be that some used to be like that and have changed?  Otherwise I would have to say I honestly don't know what you're talking about.  But if you wanted to find a local group, I would help you find one that might fit.  And if you wanted someone to meet you there and go with you so you didn't have to walk in without any friends in the space, I would do that too. 

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I come to Susan's because I feel that inclusive nature gives a better perspective and opinion than transsexuals alone, and it also fosters a more supportive environment for people to find who they are. On that sort of level I am fine with unity, but I just can't see me "in the trenches" so to speak with Autogyniphillics, et cetera.

Well, no one is suggesting that anyone get in the trenches at all.  Basically all I'm saying is it would be really great if people would be nice to one another.  I'm not urging people to be advocates, get in any trenches, or anything else.  Just be kind.  If there's a single line from my speech that I wish people would grab hold of, it is this one:  "Changing the world doesn't require heroism.  It only requires being kind."

I will join with you in agreeing that Susan's is a more inclusive place than many.  But for many people here, there still seem to be approved categories and if you fall outside of them, you're going to get flamed. 

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
I suppose my question is, exactly what do you mean as unity? If it is as simple as being nice, then I think I can handle that, if however, it would involve much more, I am not so sure I can or even would want to necessarily. I don't resent or hate the people who make me uncomfortable, but neither do I relate to them, nor wish deep associations with them.

Unity is great because it can mean so many things.  But I think my speech was basically just about being nice and being respectful.  If people are going to get into the trenches and do work to get things done, then they should cooperate.  But it's not a speech about getting people fired up to do things. 

I've given the call to arms speech too, but I did not write it down, I'm afraid.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 18, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
That's an affliction that affects leaders everywhere, right? If you have the confidence to think you can pull off something difficult and that people will follow you, that kind of confidence can easily lead to arrogance.

Still, uniting groups of people seems to require leadership of some sort or other, and the benefits often outweigh the problems that come with it. I can't think of examples where movement has happened without it. So I'm afraid when it comes to answering your original question (How do we build a stronger and more unified trans community?), leadership is all I've got.

The floor is now open for nominations.  ThePhoenix has made a Sherman declaration, so it's gotta be someone else.

But more seriously, I agree with you that leadership is needed.  But I think it's better with a zillion small leaders than one big one. 

As far as what happened with the folks at GRMD . . . I guess it is an occupational hazard.  Which is why when Rome awarded a triumph, the returning hero had a slave who accompanied him in his chariot just to whisper in his ear "you are still mortal."  Probably remaining skeptical about one's own press helps.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
The notion of  ->-bleeped-<- (sexual arousal by thinking of oneself as a woman) as a driver of transition seems pretty well discredited at this point.  But I wonder how you would know if you were talking to one of the few who believes in it?  Unless they come out and tell you . . . In which case, isn't the issue about whether you like the person because of their opinion rather than because of their identity?  Can't the issue be dealt with like any other?  Likewise, how do you know who does porn for fun?  Or who crossdressers because of a fetish?  I'm sorry I don't know much about these issues.

Allow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me.

Quite a few years back, I used to hang around the...less savory parts of Richmond, and sometimes SW DC. Perhaps this has alot to do with my aversion to the people like this. I know some of these people used to go to the Fan Free Clinic (I even did briefly, but Whitmann-Walker is much closer to me now, even if I don't go to either of them now). The thing is, I suppose I almost feel a guilt by association, if I am hanging around these people, especially the ones who work the corner.

Maybe I let past experiences cloud my judgement, to be fair I have never been a member of an official support group IRL. The gatherings of trans people I have been to were usually on a street corner or someones house, and not a formal event at all. When I watch stories online of trans people like Andrea James, Kimberly Reed, etc it is absolutely nothing like the people who I met IRL. This has kept me largely on the internet for trans issues, because I can relate to some stories here, I find Kimberly Reed's documentary particularly relateable. No corners, over sexualization, or back alley silicone injections in that documentary, but I have seen all of that in the streets of the cities around me.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
That means respecting one another's identity.  No hate and fury like occurred in the ->-bleeped-<- thread in the mtf section.  All identities are okay, all identities are welcome.  We do not seek to control or decide what identities are acceptable because we are too often the victim of people doing that to us.  So . . . Have you hugged a trans* person who is different from you today?

See, this is what I mean, when I read that thread I had a rather visceral negative reaction to the term itself, much less the other content. I would note that I didn't participate, if I have nothing nice to say I won't I was raised better than that after all. I am just not sure how well unity can work if I feel like that even if I don't tear other people down (which I don't I am not mean).

And, for the record I have only hugged two people in the last 3 months lol, so no I have not hugged another trans* person today (or ever for that matter), I am just not too into hugging people unless I know them really well. Which does make me sound really prudish but I am who I am I guess.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 18, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
...But I think my speech was basically just about being nice and being respectful...

That I can handle....at least until some self identified Autogyniphillic tries and tell me that I am deluded and that I don't really have a female gender identity, but some bizarre fetish and in denial. I don't handle it too well when people try and push their ideas onto me, and will react in a negative manner, but outside of that I can be nice.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Allow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me.

Well, people still need to respect one another.  That's a two way street.  I think they need to respect you too.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Quite a few years back, I used to hang around the...less savory parts of Richmond, and sometimes SW DC. Perhaps this has alot to do with my aversion to the people like this. I know some of these people used to go to the Fan Free Clinic (I even did briefly, but Whitmann-Walker is much closer to me now, even if I don't go to either of them now). The thing is, I suppose I almost feel a guilt by association, if I am hanging around these people, especially the ones who work the corner.

If you don't want to be seen with the sex workers and the like (probably a good safety idea because police might think you were either their client or one if them and arrest you too, not to mention possible street crime) then one might suggest going elsewhere.  The less savory parts of town are where you're going to find that element.  You'll see less or none of it in better parts of town and in the support groups.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
Maybe I let past experiences cloud my judgement, to be fair I have never been a member of an official support group IRL. The gatherings of trans people I have been to were usually on a street corner or someones house, and not a formal event at all. When I watch stories online of trans people like Andrea James, Kimberly Reed, etc it is absolutely nothing like the people who I met IRL. This has kept me largely on the internet for trans issues, because I can relate to some stories here, I find Kimberly Reed's documentary particularly relateable. No corners, over sexualization, or back alley silicone injections in that documentary, but I have seen all of that in the streets of the cities around me.

People do what they have to do.  I do not support self-medicating, back alley injections, or sex work.  But I also recognize that people are desperate and many of the ways to get their needs met at closed to them, so they resort to things like that.  I do not pass judgment on them and I won't be the one to condemn them.  If I were in their situation, I might do the same thing.  So canning some judgmentalism is a good thing.  But so is trying to support people getting into a safer situation.

As far as the support groups, I really would suggest trying some of the organized ones.  If you were to try MAGIC on Friday, I will be there and we could talk more about this stuff face to face if you wanted to.  Just ask the group to point out ThePhoenix and I will raise my hand.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
See, this is what I mean, when I read that thread I had a rather visceral negative reaction to the term itself, much less the other content. I would note that I didn't participate, if I have nothing nice to say I won't I was raised better than that after all. I am just not sure how well unity can work if I feel like that even if I don't tear other people down (which I don't I am not mean).

When I talk to the community, I tend to be pretty frank.  I'm not mean, but I am honest.  And when I talk about the need for infighting to stop, I always make sure to include some identities that real people have but that trans* people don't like.  I do that for two reasons. 

One is that the people who are uncomfortable and do not like the idea of someone else calling themselves a "->-bleeped-<-," for example, are exactly who I'm talking to.  If someone else's identity is troubling to you, then I would suggest that there is some work on acceptance that you still need to do on yourself. 

The second reason is that I inevitably seem to end up explaining what these terms mean and who the people I'm talking about are.  It highlights just how amazingly diverse this community is.  Many people see it as very simple: start out male, make a straight line to female, and be done.  Or:  start out female, make a straight line to male, and be done.  But there are people for whom things are not so simple.  I'm one of them and I've learned to be careful what I say about my own life in trabs* spaces because I often get raked over the coals for it.  And even between transmen and transwomen there are huge misunderstandings.  In a leadership course for trans* people, I once ended up having to explain to most of the transmasculine participants that transwomen are not all sex workers.  Even trans* people need to learn about trans* people to avoid that stuff.  My quest to wrap my own mind around crossdressing is an example of me needing to learn things.

Quote from: Hikari on February 18, 2014, 11:06:51 PM
And, for the record I have only hugged two people in the last 3 months lol, so no I have not hugged another trans* person today (or ever for that matter), I am just not too into hugging people unless I know them really well. Which does make me sound really prudish but I am who I am I guess.

That I can handle....at least until some self identified Autogyniphillic tries and tell me that I am deluded and that I don't really have a female gender identity, but some bizarre fetish and in denial. I don't handle it too well when people try and push their ideas onto me, and will react in a negative manner, but outside of that I can be nice.

Well, see, that's an example of them not respecting you.  And like I said, respect is a two way street.  So don't diss them back because that only increases the amount of nastiness in the world.  Just turn around and walk away. 

Thank you, Phoenix, for posting this encouragement for each of us to become more compassionate towards each other.  This is always a good thing, and yet we do (myself very much included) need reminding of this every now & then because we all suffer from the very human condition of finding it easier to see our differences rather than our similarities.

This striving for a more compassionate unity to replace a defensively judgemental disunity is as essential for me as every other aspect of how I deal with being trans*.  I have spent most of my life engaging in intensely hardened, defensively judgemental disunity against myself.  I am, and always have been, my own worst critic.  I find myself in serious need of experiencing the company of some people who are prepared to refrain from judging me negatively and who are willing to treat me with more compassion than I am capable of giving to myself. 

Part of why I go to the TG meeting at the William Way Centre most Thursdays is to meet some trans folk who are FtM, IS, GQ, etc. instead of just getting an MtF perspective.  I find I get a stronger sense of the many different interpretations of gender when attending those meetings.  Similar to Hikari, there are some from whom I recoil, and I realise that (for me) the primary motivator for such a reaction is a gnawing fear that they are too similar to me for my comfort.  My experience is that such encounters offer me the opportunity to find some tolerance & compassion for my own self by first finding that same tolerance & compassion for someone else.

I liked this:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 16, 2014, 06:38:51 PM
Changing the world doesn't require heroism.  It only requires being kind.

It sounds simple, but it is not always easy.

So what the many "characters" that comprise the LGBT have in common? Only one, they are all discriminated. In other words what we have in common is a common enemy! And so our "unity," our alliance is predicated in the commonalty of our enemy.

So, what would happen to the T group of the "union" when the LGB have achieve their liberation via legislation (which they are close to achieve)?

Would we be able to "stand" in our two feet and fight for our rights without the big brother (LGB) help? I think yes, but it will take a bit longer and is going to be painful because we have not learned to fight independently. 

I think prudence dictate that we start becoming a little bit more independent of the LGB. After all, our needs have always come second to the LGB ones. It is time to dictate our own agenda!

Quote from: peky on February 20, 2014, 06:25:59 PM
So what the many "characters" that comprise the LGBT have in common? Only one, they are all discriminated. In other words what we have in common is a common enemy! And so our "unity," our alliance is predicated in the commonalty of our enemy.

So, what would happen to the T group of the "union" when the LGB have achieve their liberation via legislation (which they are close to achieve)?

Would we be able to "stand" in our two feet and fight for our rights without the big brother (LGB) help? I think yes, but it will take a bit longer and is going to be painful because we have not learned to fight independently. 

I think prudence dictate that we start becoming a little bit more independent of the LGB. After all, our needs have always come second to the LGB ones. It is time to dictate our own agenda!

I only disagree in one way:  I think it is far past time for folks on the T spectrum to control our own agenda.  Note that I'm talking about T unity, not LGBT unity.

I agree that the LGB folks are unlikely to suddenly start caring about T issues.  The issues are really completely different in any case, and it is human nature to stop caring once you get what you want.  Likewise, it's a lot easier to compromise on someone else's rights.  I've learned that one the hard way.  It's not evil.  It's just human. 

I also think T folks can (and should) stand up on their own.  But there are far fewer T folk than LGB folk.  And that means we cannot afford to waste our energy fighting each other.  We really, really need to focus on fighting for the goals we want to achieve.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 20, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
I only disagree in one way:  I think it is far past time for folks on the T spectrum to control our own agenda.  Note that I'm talking about T unity, not LGBT unity.

I agree that the LGB folks are unlikely to suddenly start caring about T issues.  The issues are really completely different in any case, and it is human nature to stop caring once you get what you want.  Likewise, it's a lot easier to compromise on someone else's rights.  I've learned that one the hard way.  It's not evil.  It's just human. 

I also think T folks can (and should) stand up on their own.  But there are far fewer T folk than LGB folk.  And that means we cannot afford to waste our energy fighting each other.  We really, really need to focus on fighting for the goals we want to achieve.

Well, it seem to me that the 'fights" you are alluding in your posts are mainly among representatives of different trans-supportive organizations in Maryland...

Here in Susan's we sometimes have threads where the "holly-than-thou transsexual" vs "the rest-of-you" flares up. However, Susan's has made plenty clear that this is an umbrella site for all transgender... so I really do not see where you are going with these threads? True that there are a few Marylanders here, but the rest of us, we really do not have dog in the Maryland trans-political wars

Quote from: peky on February 20, 2014, 07:40:29 PM
Well, it seem to me that the 'fights" you are alluding in your posts are mainly among representatives of different trans-supportive organizations in Maryland...

Here in Susan's we sometimes have threads where the "holly-than-thou transsexual" vs "the rest-of-you" flares up. However, Susan's has made plenty clear that this is an umbrella site for all transgender... so I really do not see where you are going with these threads? True that there are a few Marylanders here, but the rest of us, we really do not have dog in the Maryland trans-political wars

It's political season and I tend to be involved in the politics, so that is certainly what is on my mind right at the moment.  But I would say that the "holier-than-thou" ones are more what this particular speech was about and what I meant to discuss in this particular thread.  I tend to definitely be "the rest-of-you" and I'm a pretty popular target for that. 

These days the usual critique is that I'm too much like a ciswoman and I am too conforming to binary female gender expectations.  Some see me as a sellout for that.  Probably my favorite was the person who sent me a hateful email accusing me of being "trans-cis."  I don't even know what that means.  It sounds like a contradiction in terms. 

But I'm far from being the only target of this.  There are the holier-than-thou threads that you mention.  I can't count the number of times that genderqueer persons have been described as people who just want to make "the rest of us" look bad.  I could go on and on.  But the point is that as a community we seem to have a distressing habit of barricading ourselves into small cells and excluding others from them. 

I'd like to see us do better than that.  After all, all trans* spectrum identities deal with similar issues.  And making it through in this world is hard for all of us for similar reasons.  So whether it is political activism, or coping with discrimination, or dealing with unsupportive churches, or just dealing with the minute details of day-to-day life, why can't we help one another make it through the days? 

That's basically where I'm going.  I'd just like to see people support one another. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 20, 2014, 08:39:18 PM

That's basically where I'm going.  I'd just like to see people support one another.

That's what I'm about and all I'm here for, it's my mission statement to offer support to others at Susan's. Other than that I've heard all the same stuff over and over, it's like living "Groundhog Day," and it can become mind numbing as I'm sure the mods will tell you, but we do what we do because on some level we do care for others of our strange ilk.

QuoteAllow me to expand upon what I mean, it wasn't terribly clear. I shouldn't really know if someone claims to be autogynephillic as the reason for transition,or the reason why one does porn, or crossdresses. The problem is I have had experiences where these people evangelize their viewpoint, very publicly. I have my own moral standards, and perhaps I am a bit of a prude, but just being in the same room as people who talk about shooting sex videos with strangers for fun is, well, very difficult for me to tolerate.  Of course, it doesn't matter if the person in question is trans or cis that sort of thing bothers me

I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

Quote from: bingunginter on February 24, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

Please be welcome.  I believe that the trans* community has room for you.

I do not identify with  ->-bleeped-<-.  But I do know what it is like to have a hard time talking about your life and your issues and your experiences without being judged.  As long as we can treat one another with respect, there ought to be no difficulty discussing even wildly controversial topics like  ->-bleeped-<-.  And only when we can do that can we really start to talk honestly with one another.  And once we can really be truly honest, we can start to really support and help one another.

Where I have a hard time feeling unity with others is when those others show bigotry and intolerance.

There are a fair number of people out there who are only for their own kind (however they define it) and ready to throw anyone who isn't "our kind" under the bus, whether to gain some advantage or just for the lulz.  They exist among TGs, too:  I've seen a fair amount of misogyny and homophobia and one-true-way-ism in some on-line MtF groups (I can't speak to FtM groups.)  I've been told I belong in a zoo, based on nothing more than a one-sentence description of my presentation.

While I wouldn't want to throw even these people under the bus, I would not feel safe (or feel that other marginalized people would be safe) giving them any opportunity to double-cross me or people I care about.

We can't include people who refuse to join together.  Unfortunately, there is really no way to force them to come aboard.  But we can build a unified, inclusive, supportive community for all those who want to be a part of it.  And frankly, I think that the people who choose to remain outside of it will, over time, find that they no longer want to be outside. 

Quote from: bingunginter on February 24, 2014, 05:47:13 PM

I'm for one identify with  ->-bleeped-<-. Its hard to talk about my experience/life issue without being judged negatively.

I truly believe that there are many more MTF trans out there who are afraid to say this (or even let themselves wonder if this could apply to themselves) for fear of the negative judgements.  The AG theory describes a pretty common (and to me, obvious) phenomenon I noticed within the MTF trans community (and to some degree, within myself) long before someone put a name to it and attempted to describe it.  You have nothing to be ashamed of bigunginter. Be proud of the fact that you are standing up and talking about something a lot of people are too scared to talk about.  Eventually we are going to have to talk about this more, and then you find you are not as alone as you feel.

Quote from: retransition on February 28, 2014, 12:11:47 AM
I truly believe that there are many more MTF trans out there who are afraid to say this (or even let themselves wonder if this could apply to themselves) for fear of the negative judgements.  The AG theory describes a pretty common (and to me, obvious) phenomenon I noticed within the MTF trans community (and to some degree, within myself) long before someone put a name to it and attempted to describe it. 

Now you've got me curious.  What phenomenon do you mean? 

Quote from: retransition on February 28, 2014, 12:11:47 AM
You have nothing to be ashamed of bigunginter. Be proud of the fact that you are standing up and talking about something a lot of people are too scared to talk about.  Eventually we are going to have to talk about this more, and then you find you are not as alone as you feel.

It seems like in the old days this was talked about more, although I don't remember a time when it was ever widely embraced as a theory.  But I suspect retransition is right that you would find that there are others for whom the theory fits. 

I also agree that we need to talk about this issue (and others) more.  As with any group, the trans* community seems to have its dogmas.  We'd do better at having honest conversations if we could better embrace challenges to those dogmas. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 28, 2014, 12:26:14 AM
Now you've got me curious.  What phenomenon do you mean? 

It seems like in the old days this was talked about more, although I don't remember a time when it was ever widely embraced as a theory.  But I suspect retransition is right that you would find that there are others for whom the theory fits. 

I also agree that we need to talk about this issue (and others) more.  As with any group, the trans* community seems to have its dogmas.  We'd do better at having honest conversations if we could better embrace challenges to those dogmas.

I just mean that there is obviously much more of a sexual component that drives some people's desire to change their genders than is acknowledged. 

I thought your speech was very nicely written and certainly appropriate for a day like TDOR when we can all stand together without the usual BS.  I also like the fact that you point out that each of us has the opportunity to make things a little bit better through our own words and deeds.  I don't think this has to mean everyone rowing in the same direction or looking to a "leader".  The truth is that, as individuals, we will always have our own beliefs, needs and agendas.  But I think that, rather than looking for others to do something or exclusively blaming others for the difficulties faced by the trans community, taking ownership in some areas where we, as individuals or collectively CAN make a difference is the direction that we need to move in.   The last TDOR I saw too many people tweeting and blogging that the high rate of trans suicide should be viewed as "cisgendered" people's fault (and some even referred to the suicides as cis-inflicted "murder") is irresponsible and a dangerous passing of the buck. 

I guess in the end I will not support someone JUST because they are transgendered.  But at the same time, I will also be mindful of my own experiences dealing with gender identity. I think it is important to not discriminate one way or the other (through favoritism or prejudice).  Trans people should have the opportunity that anyone should - to earn or lose  respect through their actions.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 25, 2014, 09:31:25 AM
We can't include people who refuse to join together.  Unfortunately, there is really no way to force them to come aboard.  But we can build a unified, inclusive, supportive community for all those who want to be a part of it.  And frankly, I think that the people who choose to remain outside of it will, over time, find that they no longer want to be outside.

I heard the same ^^ argument about the "Hispanic" movement... some so called "Hispanics" want nothing to do with the "Hispanic community"   Like wise, some so called transgender do not want anything to do with the so called "transgender community"...

One can ask why ? it seems such a positive thing, win-win situation, right?

Well, in my opinion, I think and feel that by putting yourself into a category (minority) you perpetuate the "victim/victimization" syndrome... like, well I did not get the job because I am Hispanic, or transsexual, or black, or whatever... instead of "I did not get the job because there were other people better qualified than me, period; now get over, and find another job.