I don't think it's a terrible idea.  I lived full time for over a year before I even considered hormones

Quote from: Sarah leah on February 17, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
I am so grateful Australia has advanced beyond this archaic notion of inflicting mental abuse on patents before you can seek treatment. At one point, before I purchased my home here and began working on my University degrees (completed the first 5 year one last week \0/). I was going to move back to the UK as I have a large family there. However, upon reflection of the medical system, I was appalled and decided to remain in Australia indefinitely as the laws and social policy changes here have been in place to protect our community for years. Indeed, the mere fact that I will be able to see a specialist in a few months and gain their professional assistance is astonishing. In fact, I will be able to utilise a set of pharmaceutical to rectify a biological issue I have lived with for 30 years, without being forced in a psychology harmful position, where I will be not only disempowered but also victimised is outstanding.

Conversely, do I think being required to live on HRT for 12+ months before gaining GRS is bad? No. It is a smart move as it allows the individual to adapt, grow and feel prepared both mentally and physically before facing a major surgery.

In terms of other cultures and the way they approach this, I am not so ethnocentric as to presume to know or understand their approach, although it does not mean I must agree with it.

Yeah, being trans in Australia is a reasonbly painless existence..

Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on February 17, 2014, 08:58:41 PM
Yeah, being trans in Australia is a reasonbly painless existence..

the US isn't too bad either

The good old nhs gave me free laser treatment  

Quote from: Sarah leah on February 17, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
I am so grateful Australia has advanced beyond this archaic notion of inflicting mental abuse on patents before you can seek treatment.
...
without being forced into a psychology harmful position, where I will be not only disempowered but also victimised is outstanding.

It is strange to read that as someone who had to do the whole RLE before HRT thing.  I certainly felt that way WAY back near the start of things and would quite happily rant, rave and generally whinge to anyone who would listen about how unfair, damaging and abusive the practice was.

After a while I accepted that it was what needed to be done and got on with working out how I was going to do it without being placed in the stocks for all to jeer and throw rotten fruit at.  Consequently, even a 1.83m tall with broad shoulders, small hips, a large nose, long face and chunky chin I pass, or at least I pass well enough that I am accepted as a woman.  Having to do the RLE not only taught me the skills I needed to learn but also the self-confidence I need.  I have read posting on other threads where people are 9-12 months into HRT and are STILL dealing with issues I had to cope with before I ever took any pills.  Issues that are causing them real anguish and blocking their progress.

I started off convinced that RLE before HRT was inhumane, now I am not so sure.  That said, I do agree with Kelly that getting the vile testosterone poison out of my system has given me space to actually THINK for a change.

Rosie

It has been interesting to read all of these different viewpoints.
Personally, I think RLE has been a really good time for me. Yes, I get stressed out when I need to do something for the first time, but, in general, it has been excellent. I haven't faced any overt discrimination and I seem to pass fairly fine. With that in mind, I cannot say how my experience would have been different if I had been forced by someone in the medical community to go full time before I was ready.
When I decided to go full time, it was for me alone. I just couldn't face another day living as a man and I felt ready. I had been on HRT for 3 months already, my facial hair was mostly under control and I was frequently being called Ms and lady etc while dressed in men's clothing. When I did finally tell my office, no one was surprised and my transition into full time went smoothly. It is hard to say, but I don't think it would have been so easy and comfortable if I had been forced to go full time prior to starting HRT. 3 months on hormones really isn't a lot, but it did soften my features a little, make shaving my legs possible and it did give me the sense of calm and confidence that I needed to take the next step.  That last part, for me at least, was very important and I think that without that my RLE would have been a total disaster.
Anyhow, I think my biggest problem with the whole concept of RLE is not so much it being a requirement for GRS (it is not a requirement for HRT where I live), but the fact that it gives power to the authorities to define what being a woman means, if that makes sense. Perhaps it is the result of being raised by ardent feminists and having several butch lesbians in my family, but I don't really think that it is appropriate for my (cismale) doctor or the other people on preoperative commission to be able to say what does and does not qualify as adapting to my new gender role. Personally, I like "girly" things like makeup, jewelry, dresses, etc. I also enjoy cooking and chatting and don't even mind doing the cleaning up  However, there are many, many ciswomen that don't like these things. The sexual revolution gave ciswomen the ability to define femininity for themselves, and I feel a bit like the RLE requirement robs transwomen of this.

I think it depends on the person or place. I mean, I was living full-time (with the exception of the workplace) for about 2 months before I was able to get my letter, but not because I was forced to ~ though with the therapist and endo I had, they didn't require i have ANY RLE before starting HRT, which i honestly found shockingly surprising. I think in certain locations and situations it would be somewhat unfair though... like lets say for example "The Rock" decides to transition and they make him go through RLE..... it would be painful (assuming they would not be ready for such a change)

But then again i have noticed that while my appearance in public is somewhat andro or confusing (some people look twice and others don't even notice) the more positive my attitude is, the more I seem to blend in ~ of course this could just be a result of me not caring as much when im in a positive attitude as opposed to having a negative attitude where I notice every single person who walks past me ~ So in the end there are a bunch of different factors in terms of whether or not RLE is a good idea or a bad idea. I personally am glad I started doing it pre-hrt (presenting as male was too much for me to handle emotionally, even wearing male clothes was a massive trigger) At least this way I could feel and be treated the way I should by people, early on, so that it only gets easier as i start my transition through HRT.

But i feel its sometimes unfair because a lot of the times there will be people who don't pass well (in a general sense, not in my personal opinion) and they wont get a full effect of how it feels to be a "woman" because people won't treat them as such.. but of course this also depends on where you live and how the people are in your area. For me (for example) I get mixed responses, but every now and then i'll run into that person that despite seeing my female presentation, and my boobs, and my purse, and my makeup... will refer to me as sir.

I remember one time I went to Miami Beach with my friends (mind you, miami beach is probably the 2nd most open minded area of South Florida) and I go into a bar, i was dressed the way I am in my avatar... after seeing my ID, they tell me "go ahead sir"... i was so upset because i feel like yelling "if i wanted to be called SIR i would DRESS as such!"... but then again I think that was mostly due to the fact that my ID is from when I was 18 and very male looking (i dont want to change my ID until i change my name or until my appearance is a little more feminine, seeing as they wont allow me to wear a wig in the DMV)

But personally, had I been forced to do RLE, i wouldv'e been hesitant, so i consider myself a little bit fortunate that I was able to do it for myself earlier on, and have my psych and endo tell me "oh, well its good that you've at least experienced what its like to live that way".

just a question. Is there some kind of mandatory dress code to accomplish the year task or is it some other kind of definition  involved. Can female brand blue jeans and top work or does it have to be so many days in a formal dress or a certain day in skirts. I'm just curious as to what is required as suitability in the cloths department or does it matter.

If a cis woman would likely dress as you are, it counts. At least it should. personally, I haven't changed what I wear since I could choose my own clothes.



Going the other way may make a huge difference in this answer.

I'm still very much against the notion of a RLE requirement for anything transition-related. For HRT, I'm completely 100% against it. It should really just work on informed consent. Not everyone who wants to alleviate their bodies of their birth-sex hormones wants to transition fully. I know many bigender people and genderqueer people who have no intention of going full-time female, but their dysphoria is eased with HRT, so they should have access to it. HRT is not a big deal. Most people will know whether it's right for them or not long before any permanent damage has been done. So IMO informed consent is more than enough for this. If a person is of sound mind to make a judgment for themselves that HRT is right, and a professional can verify that their reasons are justified, they should be able to get it without waiting around forever, and certainly without needing to be a binary MtF who goes full-time before even starting it.

I'm biased about this because I started HRT completely on my own initiative, and it was the thing that honestly verified for me that transition was right, and I would NEVER go back to the way things were, while the social experience of being female publicly has done nothing but scare the s*** out of me thus far. It's taken a body that's more or less completely female after 13 months of HRT before I've gotten even remotely comfortable going out in "girl mode." Plain and simple, I could NOT have done it if there was a RLE requirement before HRT. I would have been too afraid. And so I probably would have been stuck with a body that I hated my entire life, because I would have been too scared to do the RLE required to get on HRT with my huge masculine balding pre-transition body. And I'm sure there's a lot of trans-girls who feel the same way.

SRS, I'm totally fine with there being gatekeeping. That is something where regrets do happen, and it is a major life-changing surgery that will have the person incapacitated for weeks if not months. So being absolutely sure that someone is ready for it definitely is a good idea. But I disagree that RLE should be the requirement. Currently, the requirement for orchiectomy is one year on HRT and two letters from psychologists. Why is this enough for castration, but not for SRS? Aren't they ultimately the same result in terms of permanence and functionality? The only difference is that one changes the appearance as well. It's my opinion that once someone has been on hormones for a year, just as they're eligible for orchiectomy, they should be eligible for SRS also, regardless of transition status. Because by that point, they've already felt many permanent effects from HRT, and therefore they should have a very clear idea of whether the changes are right for them or not. And at that point, it should be blatantly obvious whether they're a good candidate for SRS or not.

Again, I know I'm being biased, because I really don't think that it's fair that I'm stuck waiting in limbo land, being forced to put up with anatomy that I hate with no end in sight, just because I'm socially anxious and I want to make sure that I'm going to be accepted as female before making the social switch. And I'm not even going to be eligible for this surgery that I've known that I wanted since I was 13 years old, until after a YEAR of living as a woman with a penis. That just seems unfair to me, especially since the rest of my body is basically already completely female.

Again, I think HRT is way more inclusive. Because having been a member of the eunuch community, and therefore knowing many male-identifying people who would love to have genital surgeries available to them, I feel like having been on anti-androgens for a year, and therefore knowing exactly what physical effects you're getting yourself into, plus having psychological counseling that reaffirms that you're making an informed decision, should be enough. Where RLE as a requirement basically limits these things that would help many people, to binary-identifying classic Harry Benjamin transsexuals only.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 18, 2014, 07:25:07 PM
I'm still very much against the notion of a RLE requirement for anything transition-related. For HRT, I'm completely 100% against it. It should really just work on informed consent. Not everyone who wants to alleviate their bodies of their birth-sex hormones wants to transition fully. I know many bigender people and genderqueer people who have no intention of going full-time female, but their dysphoria is eased with HRT, so they should have access to it. HRT is not a big deal. Most people will know whether it's right for them or not long before any permanent damage has been done. So IMO informed consent is more than enough for this. If a person is of sound mind to make a judgment for themselves that HRT is right, and a professional can verify that their reasons are justified, they should be able to get it without waiting around forever, and certainly without needing to be a binary MtF who goes full-time before even starting it.

I'm biased about this because I started HRT completely on my own initiative, and it was the thing that honestly verified for me that transition was right, and I would NEVER go back to the way things were, while the social experience of being female publicly has done nothing but scare the s*** out of me thus far. It's taken a body that's more or less completely female after 13 months of HRT before I've gotten even remotely comfortable going out in "girl mode." Plain and simple, I could NOT have done it if there was a RLE requirement before HRT. I would have been too afraid. And so I probably would have been stuck with a body that I hated my entire life, because I would have been too scared to do the RLE required to get on HRT with my huge masculine balding pre-transition body. And I'm sure there's a lot of trans-girls who feel the same way.

SRS, I'm totally fine with there being gatekeeping. That is something where regrets do happen, and it is a major life-changing surgery that will have the person incapacitated for weeks if not months. So being absolutely sure that someone is ready for it definitely is a good idea. But I disagree that RLE should be the requirement. Currently, the requirement for orchiectomy is one year on HRT and two letters from psychologists. Why is this enough for castration, but not for SRS? Aren't they ultimately the same result in terms of permanence and functionality? The only difference is that one changes the appearance as well. It's my opinion that once someone has been on hormones for a year, just as they're eligible for orchiectomy, they should be eligible for SRS also, regardless of transition status. Because by that point, they've already felt many permanent effects from HRT, and therefore they should have a very clear idea of whether the changes are right for them or not. And at that point, it should be blatantly obvious whether they're a good candidate for SRS or not.

Again, I know I'm being biased, because I really don't think that it's fair that I'm stuck waiting in limbo land, being forced to put up with anatomy that I hate with no end in sight, just because I'm socially anxious and I want to make sure that I'm going to be accepted as female before making the social switch. And I'm not even going to be eligible for this surgery that I've known that I wanted since I was 13 years old, until after a YEAR of living as a woman with a penis. That just seems unfair to me, especially since the rest of my body is basically already completely female.

Again, I think HRT is way more inclusive. Because having been a member of the eunuch community, and therefore knowing many male-identifying people who would love to have genital surgeries available to them, I feel like having been on anti-androgens for a year, and therefore knowing exactly what physical effects you're getting yourself into, plus having psychological counseling that reaffirms that you're making an informed decision, should be enough. Where RLE as a requirement basically limits these things that would help many people, to binary-identifying classic Harry Benjamin transsexuals only.

I still dont get the whole HRT thing, i mean ive been on then for 11 years now, a tbh they dont do all that much, chemical castration is the really big changer, getting on zoladex makes a million times more difference. Starting HRT on your own could kill you or damage your body, probably not the best idea.

you don't need HRT for the RLE, the rest of your life is the RLE.. get hot and get out there! 

HRT is one of those things I think that varies a lot. If you smoke or treat your body badly it will not help you much, you will end up with terrible skin and look older than you are. Yet the same can be said for some very healthy people. I am just hoping it softens a few things and moves fat to the right areas. The rest is how I feel, and my confidence. Although hair removal (must remove beard shadow just look at my avatar eww!) and a nose job are on the cards for me

Quote from: Sarah leah on February 19, 2014, 07:38:35 PM
HRT is one of those things I think that varies a lot. If you smoke or treat your body badly it will not help you much, you will end up with terrible skin and look older than you are. Yet the same can be said for some very healthy people. I am just hoping it softens a few things and moves fat to the right areas. The rest is how I feel, and my confidence. Although hair removal (must remove beard shadow just look at my avatar eww!) and a nose job are on the cards for me

yes, the chin hair must go, You look quite feminine though

I had to do RLE for hormones but only did the counselling.When I was told that I had to do RLE for hormones in Australia , I just went dressed in short shorts and a girly jumper with tiny ponytail to 1 session and then I went back to androgynous clothing and boy mode. Even my therapist said to me not to go straight into female clothing /packed on make-up. I was kinda laughed at under peoples breathes when I walked the main street , to see therapist. It was the most uncomfortable feeling I had ever experienced but I just held my head up high. Though why would I do that everyday for 3 months for hormones, just didn't make any sense to me. It was like setting myself up to be selected upon the majority. I Just waited till hormones / lazer to do their work and now I feel so much happier and confident.  Back then yeah I would of probably stopped transition and hated myself or my mental health would of been vulnerable after years of getting more confident after school harassment. So I don't believe people should have to do RLE for hormones.

Quote from: sally1990 on February 20, 2014, 01:04:54 PM
I had to do RLE for hormones but only did the counselling.When I was told that I had to do RLE for hormones in Australia , I just went dressed in short shorts and a girly jumper with tiny ponytail to 1 session and then I went back to androgynous clothing and boy mode. Even my therapist said to me not to go straight into female clothing /packed on make-up. I was kinda laughed at under peoples breathes when I walked the main street , to see therapist. It was the most uncomfortable feeling I had ever experienced but I just held my head up high. Though why would I do that everyday for 3 months for hormones, just didn't make any sense to me. It was like setting myself up to be selected upon the majority. I Just waited till hormones / lazer to do their work and now I feel so much happier and confident.  Back then yeah I would of probably stopped transition and hated myself or my mental health would of been vulnerable after years of getting more confident after school harassment. So I don't believe people should have to do RLE for hormones.

This raises a good point - even if you are told you have to do RLE before HRT - how the heck are they going to know? I mean, do you have to start taking photos and saying 'look there's me shopping', 'there's me driving', 'there's me at work'.

i remember bring the clinique a letter from my boss many years ago lol

Quotethink of HRT RLE like I think of homework contributing to someone's grade.

Haha, that's a good way of put it, and take the sting out of its tale :p

QuoteIt's important for all the reasons. Anyone who thinks that making the decision to use body-modifying and DNA manipulating chemicals, permanently modify the most nerve-ending dense area of the human body, and/or cutting away at their face like a jigsaw puzzle without a serious test of 'is this right for me in the real world'. is either immature, entitled, delusional, or a combination of all three. This is not a game and it's not something you get the hang of in a day, a week, or even a couple of months. Hell, even a couple of years is a stretch but a little 'ol year? Really?

Anyone whining about that is just plain impatient... and probably some of those other things.

Nope, not impatient or any other of the above dubious qualities. I don't want to do RLT pre-hormones simply because men-dressing-as-women who also change their names and birth sex whilst still looking shockingly male simply get the sack from work and abuse from people. Simple as that, really. RLT implies that in order to be a true transexual and therefore worthy of treatment, you have to become a walking stereotype. Its not the concept of HRT that bothers me, on paper it does make sense, but this is the real world, and its governend by weak and reactionary individuals, and the only thing one can do is play the system. Not walk into it and then get machine-gunned down.

There's quite a few people on this site who have transitioned pre-HRT and performed RLT pre-HRT and their lives have imploded spectacularly and horrifically. Most often because society, their work and family can't tolerate the idea of a passable transexual, let alone a "man in a dress". This is an unavoidable fact, sadly, and no amount of blue-sky thinking is going to change how the vast majority of humans think.

And, I have kind of noticed that those who have commented with "I think RLT is a good idea" and "I did RLE for a whole year and I didn't have any problems" interestingly tend to be very passable as their target sex pre HRT/FFS etc....  So trust me, and others, its a very different state of play when you don't have the luxury of passing before treatment

As for needing RLT in order to experience the life of a woman before taking serious steps (such as HRT) - once again, I do stress there is a big difference between the life of a non-passable transexual and a cis-woman. And once again also, those who successfully experience life as a cis-woman pre-HRT (for better and worse) tend to be those who (surprise!) look the most passable.

So yes...

QuoteI really cannot reiterate this enough: what works for one person does not necessarily work for others. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying RLE never works. It works great for some people and I, personally, am phenomenally happy for those people. That is seriously wonderful for them. It does not work for everyone, though, and not every person who it fails for is someone who just doesn't belong.

And hence, it should not be mandatory, but should be something is recommended or offered, but NOT made mandatory. Patients should be made aware of the risks, etc, and told that RLT may help, but it should not be a benchmark.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 02:41:13 PM
Umm... with kind of mentality I was raised, if I was forced to undergo RLE before getting hormones, I would have rather ended with self-medication. Now, if I have to look back, I kinda did that anyway but for entirely different reasons .

like i said i've seen both sides of this, believe me the doctors are trying to do whats best for you, despite what you may think. I question the true motives of people that dont understand this.

RLE before HRT, NO. Before surgery, yes.