Quote from: Zenda on May 28, 2011, 11:29:16 PM
Kia Ora,

Could such a place as heaven really exist  ? Or is it just a con to try and get people to conform to religious rules  ?

Metta Zenda

Heaven could exist, but not in this physical world.  The Bible tells us that our souls, the essence of our being, will be placed in another body to live in the conditions of Heaven.  The idea that Heaven and Hell, exist in another dimension has been proposed by some biblical scholars.  Our earthly, physical bodies cannot exist in those conditions in another dimension. 
  Yes, it is a con with a lot of faiths in the world because of the belief of power and/or money by a few or all of the leaders of those faiths.  The Bible warns us of these people as false prophets and false believers and that you should not be taken by this or you'll fall just as they will.  Be careful here.
  Joelene

I believe heaven is another term for sky... So sure, all I have to do is go outside and look up at least once a day to make sure it didn't get displaced somewhere

I like this anecdote.

A friend of mine's Japanese Zen teacher was once on the panel at an interfaith conference in the US midwest (imagine!).

At one point, a woman in the audience stood up, pointed to him, and said, in a smug tone "I believe in the lord Jesus Christ, and I'm going to go to heaven when I die. Where are you going?"

The teacher smiled at her and replied "When I die, I hope to go to hell. There is much suffering there. That is where all compassionate people should want to go."

Life after death?
Here at earth school if you have not learned the path of love you will go through it again and again till you get it. That is life after death. Your consciousness is only that. It is not life. Life is  biological elements with consciousness in the dence hologram that is the third demention. You are piloting a hologram and are unconscious about the very demention you are really in. Within meditation you can learn to awaken in that demention and talk to other beings there. You do not have to die to go there. Death is what will happen to the consciousness of the wicked. There souls will not be allowed into Aquarius. Only loving ones will be allowed to live on and inherit the earth.

I have a message for my fellow lightworkers, I love you so much , you are devine and loved in everyway. Please spread my advise of blueprint to world peace. It came to me after my bigest experiance last winter. It is checkmate to the wicked in absolute.


"We must value ourselves at our contributions to society and environment and not our abilities to aquire monitery value through means of greed and backstabbing to rise to the top. Within a system like this I see it impossible for the greedy to find food other than that the rats do not want."
Angie July.


I am against government as a whole, In the system I mentioned above governments would turn into orginazations that pretty much monitor the natural resorses of its given aria. Corporations would become organizations that would share plans and technology instead of patents binding growth in any given civilization that could use it. Food orginazations that know what is needed around the world by the land orginazations ( old governments) to distribute anything that might be needed. No more trade, just supplying what is needed , where it`s needed, when it`s needed for nothing more than the fact we all love eachother and life. Embrace Aquarius!!!



My two sentances are checkmate to greed, social class, segrigation, war, forced hunger, forced suffering, suffering of wildlife, borders, theft, ect
If I jarbled your mind it`s because you have been tought to think against this but it really is World Order checkmate.
Choose a side, Order or freedom. Love or spirital death.

For all of you! Here is My personal advise of how to save yourself .
1st: know who you trully are
2nd: Know what you trully want
3rd: KNow it will come to you



Please spread my words. It will Jarble peoples minds awake because nobody can argue it without sounding insane.
I love you all , Angie July 7/7/71

Quote from: Padma on June 06, 2011, 02:24:03 AM
I like this anecdote.

A friend of mine's Japanese Zen teacher was once on the panel at an interfaith conference in the US midwest (imagine!).

At one point, a woman in the audience stood up, pointed to him, and said, in a smug tone "I believe in the lord Jesus Christ, and I'm going to go to heaven when I die. Where are you going?"

The teacher smiled at her and replied "When I die, I hope to go to hell. There is much suffering there. That is where all "compassionate" people should want to go."

Kia Ora Padma,

I bet that was a real party stopper  ...But then again "blasphemy is a "victimless" crime !"

Metta Zenda

The reason why I like that anecdote is because it strikes me that being good just because you want cake come teatime isn't likely to bring about happiness. In my experience, caring about happiness (which is an inextricably intertwined meeting of ours and others') is what leads to happiness, and that's here. Waiting until you get somewhere else to get/give happy seems like a huge waste of valuable happy time.

I believe we have infinite potential for growth and happiness, and an idea like die-and-go-to-heaven is a blind alley. We should just keep moving.

Quote from: Padma on June 06, 2011, 05:20:35 PM
The reason why I like that anecdote is because it strikes me that being good just because you want cake come teatime isn't likely to bring about happiness. In my experience, caring about happiness (which is an inextricably intertwined meeting of ours and others') is what leads to happiness, and that's here. Waiting until you get somewhere else to get/give happy seems like a huge waste of valuable happy time.

I believe we have infinite potential for growth and happiness, and an idea like die-and-go-to-heaven is a blind alley. We should just keep moving.

hOWEVER, HAPPINESS IS RELATIVE TO THE PERSON AND TIME. I know there are times i am happy but they are short spurts from things i do or create or when i help others and see them smile but the happiness of being truly loved aludes me and so i do have faith in above that someday somewhere i will be with God and truly be in eternal love / happiness. It may be a short coming i have because i don't quite understand Gods love for me now but i hope to one day. I do know it won't happen until i can totally separate myself from this world or things or people of it but i am a human and that is so hard to do but it seems some do.

Bump.

Nope, I do not; when you die, you die. I try to find my 'heaven' while I'm still alive.

I believe there is a heaven so I voted "yes".

Heaven is in the here and now, its up to us to see that and cultivate it, otherwise life will pass us by in a flash of suffering and be over in no time at all.

I think our brains create heaven while we're dying, as a defense against and interpretation of the experience of death. So many near-death and back-from-death stories are similar that there has to be a real basis (outside of morality stories and behavior control) for the widespread belief in a special afterlife.

So I didn't answer the actual poll. I do believe in heaven, but only in a relatively brief and subjective version of it. I do understand it can be life-saving and grounding to adhere to the idea that good actions in life can lead to a good life in death, and I don't quibble with anyone who sees it that way.

Quote from: Padma on June 06, 2011, 02:24:03 AM
I like this anecdote.

A friend of mine's Japanese Zen teacher was once on the panel at an interfaith conference in the US midwest (imagine!).

At one point, a woman in the audience stood up, pointed to him, and said, in a smug tone "I believe in the lord Jesus Christ, and I'm going to go to heaven when I die. Where are you going?"

The teacher smiled at her and replied "When I die, I hope to go to hell. There is much suffering there. That is where all compassionate people should want to go."

Kinda' vane of the woman to ask and a little judgemental. Both of which would keep her out of her perceptions of Heaven.

I Love x10 the teacher's answer.

I believe like much of the Universe that Heaven or the description of such is not a physical place or event. But more like a state of being consciously without a physical body. When the body is dead it stays here in the physical to rot and decompose back into from which it was made, the earth. Dig up any grave and we can see that as absolute truth. But I have seen people in death and there seems to be something that is missing after their passing. They are still there bodily and even though they are inanimate I have seen the same thing when people have been in comas and the life support has been disconnected. Could just be my mind playing tricks on me but then again who really knows for sure? What does human consciousness look like or the soul and is this what seems to be missing form a body after death. Can we even see human consciousness with our limited spectrum of sight?

Quote from: Padma on June 06, 2011, 02:24:03 AM
...

...

The teacher smiled at her and replied "When I die, I hope to go to hell. There is much suffering there. That is where all compassionate people should want to go."

Wow, such a brilliant response

I put "yes" even though it's a really unconventional view of heaven, I normally wouldn't put "yes" but no didn't work for me and I am not on the fence.

I believe if you work hard enough on establishing your connection with Waheguru during your lifetime that your soul will merge with the One and you won't be reincarnated anymore. It's not really "heaven" in the Abrahamic sense, and I don't really consider it heaven because I have such a Christian/Western view of what heaven is. The popular view of heaven seems to be that you're in paradise running around basically like you are now but without any pain or suffering. Merging with the One basically means you're not you anymore, in a way you/I as we tend to perceive it doesn't exist anymore. However, it is the ultimate goal for your ultimate destination, and I guess that's what heaven really is supposed to be once you boil it down enough.

No.  I believe all forms of life that have ever existed on this planet have a common origin and fate.   Bronze age Hebrew folklore is just that to me.

To add to my last post and there being something missing after death and all. I remembered something last night that happened in my youth. My grandmother was born around the turn of the century, she lost her mother, father and her sister spanning from her early teens to late teens. She comes from a very rural background in which all bedding was hand made, a lot of clothing and meals didn't come from Mickey Ds. They made their pillows from the down feathers from the geese and ducks they kept for meals and breeding to sell. I don't really know if anyone remembers or have even heard of feather pillows but she had a bunch of them still and they were extremely comfortable, but enough of the backstory.

My grandmother and I were close, I was the baby and I spent a lot of time with her since she lived so close. In my early teens I was asking about family, how she grew up and just general things about her mom and dad and brothers and sisters. She told me about the death of her mother, father and sister, all of which died in their own beds. Remember this was the very early 1900's and that she had what she called crowns from their pillows. She showed them to me and what they looked like was these down feathers that were about 1 1/2 inches thick, round and about 3 inches in diameter and sort of wound around each other and intertwined sort of like crop circle. They were hard but not from glue or any adhesive. Yes you could pull little individual feathers from the "crown" but for the most part they had stayed that way for 60 some odd years. She told me that when the people died at home the family members would cut the pillows open and keep these "crowns" in this particular area. I though she was full of BS and that these "crowns" would happen over a period of time after laying on them through the years. She actually took one of her pillows that she still used and had in her posession for 40 some odd years and we opened it and looked through it and no little vortex of feathers to be found in it. She reloaded the feathers and sewed the pillow back up and said, "See, I told you someone has to die with their head on the pillow for the crown to be there". This was also a time period in which people would keep the casket with the body at the house for three days and then bury them.

Could these "crowns" be something from the head that exits the body that leaves these little feather vortex circles? What made me believe was the one we opened up that no one had died on that didn't have one in it that was old enough and used enough if it is something that just happens naturally with the feathers over time. Could this actually be an energy, Soul, Spirit, or Consciousness that is manipulating and having an effect on the physical world around us while exiting the physical body? Or could it just be our life force snuffing out much like water draining down a drain to non existence? My grandmother died when I was in my early twenties and don't really know who got these little "crowns" but I really wish I had them. This little incident is what got me into the paranormal and investigating and studying it.

I know some may think that this is a BS story and I really can't say for sure why these "crowns" formed (seems to be limited to feather pillows only) but all I know is that I saw the three of them and held them in my hand and that my Grandmother cherished them and kept them locked up safely in a fireproof box. It hurts me now to think that they are lost because no one in my family seems to know where they are or what happened to them.

Sorry for the long post and really don't know why I was thinking of this but it kind of goes with my earlier post of something seemingly missing from a dead body as  they pass and shortly there after. By the way I have checked modern pillows with synthetic stuffing after a death and nothing like that seems to occur. Feather pillows are rare now days so I haven't had a chance to check and besides someone really wouldn't want me to open a possible cherished heirloom anyway.

Again, sorry for the long post but thought it may be relevant to consciousness, soul or spirit or whatever may leave the body at the time of death.

Kia Ora Jess,

(Long time no see/read- I hope you're well and going with the flow of life)

You might find this of interest re: consciousness leaving the body on death...

Quote:

"For the more adept practitioners there is also the method of transference of consciousness at the time of death (Tibetan: po-wa). With training, at the time of death, the practitioner can project his mind upwards from his heart centre through his crown directly to one of the Buddha pure realms, or at least to a higher rebirth. Someone who has perfected this training can also assist others at the time of death to project their mind to a good rebirth.

It is believed that if the consciousness leaves the body of the dead person through the crown or from a higher part of the body, it is likely to result in a good type of rebirth. Conversely, if the consciousness leaves from a lower part of the body this is likely to result in rebirth in one of the lower realms. For this reason, when a person dies it is believed that the first part of the body that should be touched is the crown. The crown is located about eight finger widths (of the person being measured) back from the (original) hairline. To rub or tap this area or gently pull the crown hair after a person dies is regarded as very beneficial and may well help the person to obtain a higher rebirth. Their are special blessed pills (po-wa pills) that can be placed on the crown after death which also facilitates this process.

Once the consciousness has left the body (which, as mentioned earlier, can take up to three days) it doesn't matter how the body is disposed of or handled (including the carrying out of a post-mortem examination) because in effect it has just become an empty shell. However, if the body is disposed of before the consciousness has left, this will obviously be very disturbing for the person who is going through the final stages of psychological dissolution !"

http://www.buddhanet.net/deathtib.htm

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Anatta on February 22, 2014, 07:37:04 PM
Kia Ora Jess,

(Long time no see/read- I hope you're well and going with the flow of life)

Metta Zenda

Yeah it's been a while and you know the deal just going with the flow hon. As for well... that is somewhat psychologically debateble

That is extremely interesting. Kinda' goes with what my grandma showed me as energy leaving the body through the head and pretty much where she explained these feather crowns formed in relation to the head on the pillow. Interesting about the three days too and how we still take usually three days or a little more to bury a body. What about cremation that happens not long after the body is dead?

The three day thing in which the consciousness leaves the body could explain some paranormal ativity in which the body was disposed of before the consciousness fully left the body.

Having gone to catholic schools for most of my life I have to say that the idea of heaven may sound nice   but I believe it's a man made place design to give hope to some and money to others ( the church )

Quote from: Jess42 on February 24, 2014, 08:09:17 AM
Yeah it's been a while and you know the deal just going with the flow hon. As for well... that is somewhat psychologically debateble

That is extremely interesting. Kinda' goes with what my grandma showed me as energy leaving the body through the head and pretty much where she explained these feather crowns formed in relation to the head on the pillow. Interesting about the three days too and how we still take usually three days or a little more to bury a body. What about cremation that happens not long after the body is dead?

The three day thing in which the consciousness leaves the body could explain some paranormal ativity in which the body was disposed of before the consciousness fully left the body.

Kia Ora Jess,

Have you heard of the British philosopher Peter Russell, here's his views on what the mind and brain are...



Metta Zenda