Thanks everyone!

You know, maybe I really am not seeing things for what they are.  I just always thought I looked ugly and manly.  To my own eyes, I'm not close to passing, but maybe I'm being way to hard on myself like usual.  Well, the good news is if I keep making progress that I can only get better than this.  So maybe full time will go much easier for me then I'm thinking.   Still feel like I have some more work to do, but I'm going to work on my self esteem.   

I think a little bit of makeup and handling what appears to be a wee bit of mustache shadow, and you'll be a knockout, you're already super cute. Looking at these pictures, I'd take you to be a cis lesbian, honestly.

Your friend is looking good imho and well on her way to womanhood. 

ltl, I am going to give you a friendly reminder.

You are aiming at the impossible: 100% passing from day ONE of going full time.

June 3rd Male 100%
June 4th D-DAY (D as "donna", woman in Italian) 100% female.

This is really improbable. No matter how feminine you are. Are you aware of that?

ltl,

It sounds like you may be starting to realize this, but the biggest thing you can do to help yourself right now is to work in your self esteem. No amount of HRT, surgery, makeup hair or anything for that matter can compensate for self esteem.

The thing of it is, the opposite is not true. Self esteem can at times eliminate the need for surgery.

I think it's fitting that you started by posting this as being a friend. That's exactly what you need to do. Start being a friend to yourself and then you will be able to see your natural beauty and femininity for yourself.

Quote from: learningtolive on February 26, 2014, 06:21:17 PM
Thanks everyone!

You know, maybe I really am not seeing things for what they are.  I just always thought I looked ugly and manly.  To my own eyes, I'm not close to passing, but maybe I'm being way to hard on myself like usual.  Well, the good news is if I keep making progress that I can only get better than this.  So maybe full time will go much easier for me then I'm thinking.   Still feel like I have some more work to do, but I'm going to work on my self esteem.   

It's such a shame that it's something so many of us struggle with, regardless of our "passability."  This is certainly where confidence plays such a major role with sucessfully transitioning, IMO.

Quote from: big kim on February 26, 2014, 04:02:06 PM
Nothing to worry about,tidy up the eyebrows is all that's needed.

This!  Your friend is already very feminine looking, and hrt will continue to do her wonders.  And those eyes.  So pretty!

Now, go work on that self-esteem!

You already look good in androgenous Mode totaly feminine features as was previously stated. girl give us some pics dressed and made up and we will all be scratching your eyes out LOL

I honestly think she can pass as she is. But I think a straight fringe could help with the insecurity about the forehead. She looks just like any average girl out there without make up. Chin up and keep smiling All the girls here who have been on hormones for years says it only gets better

I agree with what everyone has said. You have a beautiful face, that's only going to get more lovely with HRT. If you go to the before and after page you'll see what I started out with and how my face developed through HRT. Objectively, I think your pre-HRT face is even more feminine than mine. Though your nose is bigger, your jaw is super-feminine and you have no brow ridge!

I used to *obsess* about how prominent my brow ridge is, how masculine my jawline is, and how low my voice is (I'm a natural baritone). But you know what's funny? People compliment me on a regular basis on my "strong" features and guys have praised my low, sultry voice. You're not just body parts, you're a whole person and people aren't going to look at you as a hairline or a nose. They'll look at all of you and the best way for them to see what's beautiful in you is for you to see what's beautiful in yourself.

Looking back, I was really lucky to have transitioned in a super-supportive environment, around people who helped and reassured me. Reach out to friends who can maybe help you through this.

Pathetic as it was, as someone who was mainly attracted to men, going out on pseudo-dates with my attractive male friends helped a lot to boost my self-esteem. I remember going out with my friend James to our favorite Vietnamese restaurant and they would serve us dessert on heart-shaped plates, clearly thinking we're a couple. Even if it weren't actually the case, the fact that other people saw the possibility of James and I being together really boosted my self-esteem.

Also really funny was the fact that my pseudo-dates with my friend Dave ended up turning into real dates and we ended up being together for a little while... he's the only person I've slept with both before and after transition. He's still one of my best friends. So yes, as much as self-esteem comes from within it helps to be able to see yourself as desirable by other people, and having supportive friends can facilitate that.

At first I though: "LtL is being really rude with her friend". The way you described her nose made me think I was going to see the feminine version of Donald Duck on those pics! And when I saw her pics and I even started to feel offended for her, because she is looking cute and very passable! She is looking really fine! I'd be happy if I could have her nose or a long hair as nice as hers! And then I realized that I think I know your friend here from the forums 

I don't think your nose (sorry, HER nose  ) have any problem. Perhaps on other angles, but from those pics it looks a really average nose for me. Not masculine at all.

The hairline might be a bit high, but she is very lucky to have a nice looking hair! I think that if she divided her hair on the middle she would look even more cute! The hairline is not a problem, with your hair you don't need to worry.

And she have a very feminine face shape! That's unquestionable! And pretty big eyes too!

Besides that, regardless of going full time now or later, HRT will keep doing its job. Give time to time and stop being so critic! You pass already girl!

Quote from: learningtolive on February 26, 2014, 03:38:44 PM
she is looking to hear honest opinions that are done in a considerate manner.

I dont really unterstand what the problem is. Hot lips and eyebrows which I would kill to have. And with a little mascara your eyes will be hypnotizing many boys.

Only "problem" I see is the forehead. But I know a cisgirl with the same type of forehead and she wears her hair as pony tail and I would never assume or even suspect she'd be trans.

I'd swap my body with your's at any time.

I can't add to what has already been said by others; a little laser on the top lip and some eyebrow and makeup work might help a little, but I see a girl there in those pictures. Your chin is quite feminine as is your face shape, and you have nice lips.

All I can say that doesnt echo what everyone else says is this: I WISH i looked like that.

**Warning, I will not BS you at all. Do not read this if you don't want to know my actual opinion because, I'm... well... me.**

Bwa ha ha. Nice try on the 'my friend' thing... 

Anyway, brutal truth is that you're 'okay'. Not great, not bad. You've got a nice facial shape, a nice chin, and when you actually have your hair in the right way, you look pretty cute. You've got nice eyes (which would, as most girls, benefit from mascara/eyeliner) and your mouth shape is adorable.

The HRT is doing its thing and it'll get much, much better over time. After a couple more years, you won't recognize yourself. Complete your laser treatment and you'll definitely have a better time seeing yourself as yourself.

That said, you have some challenges. You have a fairly low arch around your inner brow which is, at times, an issue. Your nose is also shaped broadly and thus, rhinoplasty might be a good option for you (but really, wait for a couple of years for HRT to do its thing). The five-head is a definite issue. If you had hair before and started losing it early, hair-restorative might be a good option. No, you can't get bangs; they'll look horrible on you (they look good on very, very few chicks). There might be a better hairstyle for you but, really, just longer would be better at this point. Go see a stylist, talk to him/her about what's up with you and trust their opinion (if you can't tell your stylist about your stuff, you need a different stylist.) Five-heads (the joke is that you can put your whole hand between your brow and hairline) tend to wear hair longer or bigger. My fiancé has a five-head and she just manages it with long swoops of hair.

Get your damned brows done. Pronto.

Also, don't lose *too* much weight. Your cheeks are pretty wide and if you get too small, your facial structure won't do you much good..

If all you're worried about is 'passability' though, you'll be fine. You won't be a knockout until you really get some of your issues handled (hairline) but you'll be a very passable, if plain, chick.

P.S. - Don't take down-angle shots. Do straight on or we'll be seeing the lighting rather than the face.

I can go on and on and on but this is the basic stuff. You're doing fine, kiddo. Just hang in there, learn to get the eff over yourself, and start playing around with makeup while you go through the rest of your transition stuff.

*mwa*

Hi learningtolive,

I understand your feelings about seeing way too much guy when you look in the mirror, and feeling completely unable to pass, likely being too hard on yourself; I couldn't relate to this more. With that said, I do think your current photos are pretty darn passable, but I'd like to share some further thoughts.

Each photo is taken at the same angle. In particular, a slightly top-down angle and from the front. This makes it difficult to see the depth of your nose, chin or brow bone, as well as the length and depth of your philtrum, which can play a large role in passableness when someone is viewing your profile.

From reading your other posts, I think you have a pretty good head on your shoulders, if a bit too worried now and then. My guess is that you have a solid idea of what it is you need to do; I agree that your nose may need some work, but generally that also comes with forehead or orbital work because of the way a nose is set and attached to a forehead. Even if you do find you need surgery to be completely passable, I think your facial palette is very promising and you would have stellar results.

Thanks everyone.  Don't feel bad about saying what you feel.  Believe me, the "worst" response to my pictures are a million times better than what I thought the best were going to be.  I'm still early in the game.  I have a lot more work to do in many ways and in no way hope for these pictures to represent my possible final outcome.  Just want to make sure I do have potential to pass.  If I do, then everything else can be worked on along the way.

The nose job is necessary for me.  I'm getting that done asap because it makes me feel really uncomfortable.  Even if I could pass with it, the nose just really hurts my self image.

Yeah, my brows need more work, but they are a huge improvement from where I started.  I'm still learning how to do these things.  Honestly, I've messed up so much in the past that I'm a little tentative to be too experimental.  One of my friends shaped it for me and I'm keeping it maintained for now.  Once I get the courage to get my hair styled, I'll make sure to deal with the brows as well.

I hate my forehead, so that's why I've always assumed wispy bangs would be my best bet.  Right now, I do a side part approach rather than a center part because it demphasizes the nose.  From what I hear, bangs can create an illusion of a smaller nose.  I figure that would kill two birds with one stone when considering the forehead and nose.  If anyone has any other suggestions for hair styles I should try, I'm all ears.   

And again, thanks to everyone for saying all these nice things.  I'm not used to hearing good things about my appearance.  It's just a bit shocking and foreign to me, so I'm still not sure how to process it.  However, it's really nice to hear and you all made my week.

Quote from: Marina mtf on February 26, 2014, 11:49:51 PM
ltl, I am going to give you a friendly reminder.

You are aiming at the impossible: 100% passing from day ONE of going full time.

June 3rd Male 100%
June 4th D-DAY (D as "donna", woman in Italian) 100% female.

This is really improbable. No matter how feminine you are. Are you aware of that?

Yeah, I realize my ideal fantasy isn't going to be reality.  Still, I want to do everything I can to pass in the best capacity I can obtain.  There is no way for me to avoid the clunky starting period.  However, I'm learning as I go and making improvements.  Hopefully, I can only get better from here because my flaws are very visible to me. But even if I can pass appearance wise, I can't erase my past.  People will know and I can't change the fact that I'm trans.  It's hard for me to deal with that, but I'm learning how to handle it.  I suppose it's just something I will have to get through in order to get to where I want to be.  I'm very very scared, but I'm also trying.  I just hope I can keep it hidden for the most part, just in case because of transphobia and all that. 

Quote from: mandonlym on February 27, 2014, 05:09:44 AM
I agree with what everyone has said. You have a beautiful face, that's only going to get more lovely with HRT. If you go to the before and after page you'll see what I started out with and how my face developed through HRT. Objectively, I think your pre-HRT face is even more feminine than mine. Though your nose is bigger, your jaw is super-feminine and you have no brow ridge!

I used to *obsess* about how prominent my brow ridge is, how masculine my jawline is, and how low my voice is (I'm a natural baritone). But you know what's funny? People compliment me on a regular basis on my "strong" features and guys have praised my low, sultry voice. You're not just body parts, you're a whole person and people aren't going to look at you as a hairline or a nose. They'll look at all of you and the best way for them to see what's beautiful in you is for you to see what's beautiful in yourself.

Looking back, I was really lucky to have transitioned in a super-supportive environment, around people who helped and reassured me. Reach out to friends who can maybe help you through this.

Pathetic as it was, as someone who was mainly attracted to men, going out on pseudo-dates with my attractive male friends helped a lot to boost my self-esteem. I remember going out with my friend James to our favorite Vietnamese restaurant and they would serve us dessert on heart-shaped plates, clearly thinking we're a couple. Even if it weren't actually the case, the fact that other people saw the possibility of James and I being together really boosted my self-esteem.

Also really funny was the fact that my pseudo-dates with my friend Dave ended up turning into real dates and we ended up being together for a little while... he's the only person I've slept with both before and after transition. He's still one of my best friends. So yes, as much as self-esteem comes from within it helps to be able to see yourself as desirable by other people, and having supportive friends can facilitate that.

Yeah, I have a pretty poor social life as of now.  I have some great friends that I love, but I don't really like reaching out all the time.  Hell, I only feel comfortable reaching out to a select few, so this is something I will need to improve.  I just figured I wouldn't start working more on my social life and meeting new people until I go full time.  There is no point making a bunch of new friends only to have to tell them that I'm a transexual.  Definitely a conversation I want to avoid having if possible. 

As for dating, sadly that's non-existent in my life.  I can't really imagine a guy ever falling for someone like me.  And because I'm still in gender andro limbo, I really don't know how to go about it.  Do I try to date gay guys?  Obviously they won't like me.  Do I date straight guys?  They wouldn't be into me as I am.  It's complicated which sucks because I really would like to finally open myself up to it.  Then again, I have so much to work on myself that getting involved with another person could be a big mistake. 

you can go to lgbt friendly bars and events just to mingle and talk to people and not worry about dating

Yeahhhh. Don't date. Too early, luv. Try establishing a life and at least see if you can feel normal 'most' of the time before trying out all the crazy of the dating world.

Quote from: learningtolive on February 27, 2014, 12:12:29 PM
I'm not used to hearing good things about my appearance.

As you don't look clearly male any more that's no surprise to me. You don't fit into the "male world" nor try to but don't look clearly female nor present as one. That's devastating to "appearance". Humans want a clear shot so as long as you don't fit into neither world, you're always appearing strange. You might wonder about how much that might change when you start presenting female and trying to fit in (and thus giving a clear shot).

Yes, indeed.

the world needs ones and zeroes, M or F.

Staying neutral, it's sound strange, but augment the fear. From my little perspective of
a little Italian town... people, the "normal people" are more kind, secure and understanding
if they see a person who, maybe without too much passing, but it is clearly on a side
and it is clear that, if she does not pass, is not her "fault", but the Testostorene-past.

A person who wants to be bi-gender, fluid, whatever... has more challenges, imho.