One other thing I meant to say - just because you might see FTM resources and communities online and you might notice some acceptance of FTMs in trans spaces that does not mean that all FTMs have access or are able to relate to these. For the FTM who is not comfortable in trans spaces or on message boards or tumblrs, this so called "advantage" is non-existent. 

Sorry guys, hope it didn't sound like I said being FTM is easier!!! As a whole I think both are equal. I just meant that visible MTFs are uniquely put in this chaotic social presentation in which they are constantly passively being judged and mocked by almost everyone who can see them. That level of visibility is mostly unique to MTFs so I was saying that's why the desperation to change mannerisms could also be unique to MTFs. The urgency must be incredible when every person walking by in public is looking and gawking.

I mean, FTM just starting transition puts on a button-up, men's jeans and oxfords and goes to dinner. everyone's seen it even if it's hard knowing he doesn't pass. MTF puts on a wig, pumps and a dress? Stares, whispers, sneers, smirks, maybe comments, maybe arguments, and so on... At least they would naturally wanna get the mannerisms right if they were worried. You know?? An unpassable MTF ends up as everyone's business when they shouldn't have to be, and when you're put in the spotlight... you don't wanna forget the lines... how could anyone be natural like that?

Quote from: retransition on February 27, 2014, 11:53:09 PM
Nice post. Really quick I will say that, for me, letting go of a lot of stuff that wasn't me, and also clearing out a lot of the "mental space" that transition and gender were occupying in my head, only now have I come to some really important realizations about myself that I could never see before because they were buried under all the gender stuff.

mm, i had that same type of experience. went from thinking that everything will be good if i can just transition, to seeing that nearly everything will be even better if i just stop obsessing over transition and how difficult that is for me to get access to. put the whole transition project aside as something i will do as soon as it becomes possible, but not giving it more importance than losing a few pounds. both will make me feel better about something, but they're not at all necessary in order to have a fairly good life.

i'm almost starting to agree with those who think it is better to work through other mental problems before starting transition. or at least before doing any surgery. just to know that the person is actually thinking clearly about these things and not wishing for the wrong solutions.

now that i'm at peace with myself, i notice better which feelings are constant, and which are more fleeting. the constant ones are probably the ones that are most certain to be truth, the rest need to be thought about more when it's time for it. or they may even disappear when i make small changes to myself that will deal with the constants. but since i can't figure that out with my current situation, i'll just make sure to do what i can do rather than obsessing over what i can not. the world is already a brighter place.

Quote from: sad panda on February 28, 2014, 02:41:15 AM
Sorry guys, hope it didn't sound like I said being FTM is easier!!! As a whole I think both are equal.

I'm willing to come out and say it:  being ftm is easier than being mtf.

This is not to say that being ftm is easy.  It isn't.  There are undoubtedly individual cases of ftm individuals who have experienced more adverse consequences for being trans* than individual mtf persons.  But every single study I know of shows that mtf individuals are suffering higher rates of discrimination, violence, and suicide than ftm individuals. 

Mtf spectrum individuals experience more violence than ftm individuals.  A study from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs estimated that about half of all anti-LGBT hate murders in 2012 were committed against transwomen even though transwomen are far less than half the LGBT community.  No transmen were hate murder victims.  The National Transgender Discrimination Survey shows that mtf spectrum individuals are more likely to experience violence in their families (22% vs. 15%), sexual assault during thei K-12 years (15% vs 10%), physically assaulted in homeless shelters (29% vs. 15%), sexually assaulted in homeless shelters (26% vs. 15%), or turned away from a homeless shelter altogether (34% vs 20%).  A study on transgender health in Philadelphia (available here:  http://www.nationallgbtcancernetwork.com/media/pdf/1_in_4_trans_turned_away.pdf) had similar findings.  Mtf spectrum individuals were more likely to experience violence in the form of forcible sex (68.8% vs 30.0%), violence in their homes (67.3% vs. 38.7% percent) and physical abuse (65.3% vs. 29.0%).  The sexual assault rate according to a San Francisco study also showed that mtf spectrum individuals were sexually assaulted more often than ftm individuals (68% vs. 55%), although the ftm individuals, at 55%, were sexually assaulted more frequently than in the Philadelphia study. 

In employment, the statistics show ftm individuals suffering a lot less than their mtf counterparts.  An interesting study in 2008 followed ftm and mtf individuals through transition.  Mtf spectrum trans* people lost an average of 32% of their income after transition.  Ftm persons saw their income go up slightly (1.5%).  There used to be a formal article about this study available online, but I cannot find it anymore.  Here is a Time Magazine article about it:  http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1847194,00.html. A study by the San Francisco Department of Health (available here:  http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf) shows greater discrimination against mtf individuals than ftm individuals across the board.  Interestingly, the one area where ftm individuals reported monthly greater rates of workplace discrimination was the workplace, but mtf individuals still had lower monthly incomes (an average of $744 vs. $1,100).

I could on, but this is an Internet message board, not an academic study.   I hope the point is clear.  People are certainly welcome to disagree, but I'd be very interested in knowing whether they have evidence beyond their personal opinions to back up their disagreement.

The statistics tell a compelling story.  No one--neither ftm spectrum nor mtf spectrum--is having it easy.  But mtf spectrum persons are facing much more widespread discrimination on average.  Although it is doubtless possible to find some individual ftm persons who have had it much worse than some other mtf persons, that does not change the fact that, based on all the available stats, mtf individuals are being targeted and suffering more than ftm individuals. 

Frankly, I'm surprised that this statement is all that controversial.  I have met an ftm individual who thought that ftm individuals had a worse time of it.  But only one. 

@taka I really like your approach. I wish I did it that way too.

@thephoenix wow... well I guess the numbers do speak for themselves. A lot of times when I'm out I see presumably cis women who could just be an early in transition ftm and realized that they wouldn't stand out and literally no one would think anything of it until they started telling people they are a guy. It was interesting to think about it that way. It makes me think about my first few weeks in my transition, how terrified I was to be living full time with no hormones, and it being the summer I was out in short shorts and girly sandals like every day. Fortunately in 2 years of living full time I only had 1 negative reaction, when a week or 2 in some guy kept smirking at me and he was paying way too much attention in not the usual way. It was just a few minute encounter and I never even knew if he could tell I was trans but that experience was awful to me, I cannot even begin to imagine the strength it takes to face that or worse every day and to keep going out anyway. Transition was hellish until I started to realize that nobody could tell, and it's so weird to think how differently they would act if they could. It's so weird to wonder how few allies I would have anywhere when as a conventional, passable girl I'm everybody's sweetheart. I really resent that. I really wish it could change but I don't know how. I mean even I as a trans person struggle to accept being trans. Just the idea of it. And then to the average person, it's still just this band of gypsies....

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 28, 2014, 08:17:35 AM
I'm willing to come out and say it:  being ftm is easier than being mtf.

...

I could on, but this is an Internet message board, not an academic study.   I hope the point is clear.  People are certainly welcome to disagree, but I'd be very interested in knowing whether they have evidence beyond their personal opinions to back up their disagreement.

The statistics are horrible and sad and thanks for reminding us of them (I still need to drop by your thread about the T.D.O.R. as I have a few comments.) 

I still don't think it is helpful in any way to say one is "easier" than the other.

As I read these numbers, I (sadly) wasn't surprised that the overall rate of violence is higher for MTFs. The reality is that a much higher percentage of members of the MTF population engage in sex work and other dangerous activities than does the FTM group.  The Philadelphia study even noted this in its findings:

"The levels of sexual abuse were also alarming. The higher levels of sexual abuse found among MTFs may be due to the fact that MTF sex workers were among the survey one target population. MTF sex workers are in danger of being victims of violent sexual acts, particularly if they are pre operative. There is anecdotal information of pre-op MTFs who have been beaten and even killed by "Johns" who found out they were biological males (Wilchins et al.). "

I also noticed the nearly 3/4 of FTMs reported not having access to at least one medical service due to price (I am assuming phalloplasty) as opposed to 2/5 of MTFs.   So what does that mean in terms of "easiness"?  There are other numbers we can parse and argue over, but I have to wonder what the point of doing so would be since I believe there is no such thing as a definitive "benchmark" of what constitutes an "easier" lived experience.  I have to be honest, I don't really see what is to be gained by even attempting to have such a discussion.  I think you said it best with your point that "no one--neither ftm spectrum nor mtf spectrum--is having it easy. "