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You may not be as cisgender as you think you are..

Started by Shawn Sunshine, February 06, 2013, 01:15:27 PM

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JLT1

I think we missed something here....Some doctors, right or wrong, do seem to ask that question about doing a test.  The question I was throwing out there was "Do you think this is part of the problem so many less that cis-gendered people are facing?"  A situation where doctors are not running a test because they don't know what to do with an intersex person and therefore, the diagnosis is incomplete? 
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Elspeth

Quote from: Annah on February 12, 2013, 09:31:12 PM
if a patient was having problems and she could not figure out what the issue was, the first thing she would do is administer some labwork (tests) regardless whether or not she would know the answer. Even if she thought she would not know the answer before hand, she would still run a battery of tests and have a peer look over the results if she was stumped.

You're misreading. It's not about whether she would know the answer, but whether she would know what to do or have anything useful to do with the result of a specific test under consideration, in the event of any of the possible answers. If the results of a test were likely to provide no actionable result, not even the action of additional tests, then the particular test under consideration has no practical value to the patient or the doctor. Still not sure I'm stating this clearly enough. You might want to try re-reading, or maybe just show the thread to your mother. I thought I was clear earlier, but this can seem like a somewhat counter-intuitive thing for people, even those who have lived with doctors for a good part of their lives.

Maybe a specific example would be better? My ex often got approached by friends who wanted full-body MRIs, thinking that a full scan would be more likely to show up whatever might be wrong. Aside from the costs, and the fact that scanning protocols tend to be tailored to a highly specific diagnostic question, one of the reasons she almost always told them this was a bad idea was essentially what JLT1 kind of suggested, and is reflected in that doctor-friend's comment. A full body MRI could show masses and all sorts of anomalies that the doctor might then need to explore further, just because they were odd, not because there were any symptoms that led anyone to suspect anything was wrong in that location.

Having started on a hunt for zebras, the doctor might be obliged, at the very least, to suggest an intrusive biopsies, surgery or further testing to rule out things the anomaly might be, in part, because of potential liability, but also common prudence, now that they had seen something that had a very limited chance of being something awful, and even though its potential awfulness might never show up. Few procedures come with no risk at all, so doing something where the outcome could lead to a whole chain of  diagnostic tests, when there had been no specific reason to suspect anything, can lead to things like MRSA, or complications related to a test that turned out to be unnecessary, but seemed at the time to be at least borderline prudent, even if it was based off an essentially blind attempt to find something.

Now, if there were a strange set of symptoms, and all the likely causes had been ruled out by other tests, doing a full body scan might be prudent, because you still have the symptoms, and you've ruled out all the most likely causes. So going on a random search under those circumstance, might have a better chance of revealing something relevant and actionable. 

This may seem odd to laypeople, but most of them have never read an MRI and have little appreciation how many people (possibly all people, especially with a full body scan) are likely to have one or more odd things, or suspicious patterns, scattered around in their bodies, most of which will remain a mystery unless someone had a symptomatic reason to go looking for them in the first place.  I'm sure there are probably similar issues in each of the other sub-specialties.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

Quote from: JLT1 on February 12, 2013, 10:44:46 PM
I think we missed something here....Some doctors, right or wrong, do seem to ask that question about doing a test.  The question I was throwing out there was "Do you think this is part of the problem so many less that cis-gendered people are facing?"  A situation where doctors are not running a test because they don't know what to do with an intersex person and therefore, the diagnosis is incomplete?

I'm hesitant to say that's it, but in the case of someone not current on, or highly skeptical about more recent research, given that some of them may still assume that the old theories that transsexualism is somewhat  of a schizotypal disorder or bordering on delusional, some individual docs might justify to themselves avoiding exploration for fear of adding fuel to something they are still assuming is a kind of delusional thinking.  But I can't really say whether or to what degree any doctors really subscribe to the more outdated theories and speculations about where being trans comes from.

"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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JLT1

A woman comes into a doctor's office because she can't get pregnant.  The doctor checks things out and determines there is a possibility that individual has nearly complete AIS - genetically XY with mostly female genitalia and therefore cannot have children.  There is no cure and telling the female patient that she is actually genetically male could cause some emotional disturbances.  Does the doctor order the test? 

(One reason I didn't go to medical school was questions like this.....Another was grades my first couple of years!)

To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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JLT1

Elspeth and Annah - you both have wonderful minds.
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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spacial

Quote from: JLT1 on February 13, 2013, 12:31:01 AM
A woman comes into a doctor's office because she can't get pregnant.  The doctor checks things out and determines there is a possibility that individual has nearly complete AIS - genetically XY with mostly female genitalia and therefore cannot have children.  There is no cure and telling the female patient that she is actually genetically male could cause some emotional disturbances.  Does the doctor order the test? 

(One reason I didn't go to medical school was questions like this.....Another was grades my first couple of years!)

In those cases, the problem generally first presents as failure to start periods.

But I thing the original statement as quoted was saying that, when you test, be prepared to find out things you would rather not know. Especially when we assume there are no porblems.

This isn't your child.

You have AIDS.

For example. These are things which it is necessary to know. But if when we do these tests, we do need to be aware that sometimes we discover things which are a bit more complicated than we would have preferred.

The only current tests for mental illness are by observation. What medical testing exists is backup. If there ever is a medical test for mental illness, the world will become an altogether more scary place.

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Elspeth

Quote from: JLT1 on February 13, 2013, 12:31:01 AM
A woman comes into a doctor's office because she can't get pregnant.  The doctor checks things out and determines there is a possibility that individual has nearly complete AIS - genetically XY with mostly female genitalia and therefore cannot have children.  There is no cure and telling the female patient that she is actually genetically male could cause some emotional disturbances.  Does the doctor order the test? 

Almost certainly yes, because in most cases, AIS has a fairly significant risk of testicular cancers, and unless the patient is a child, suspecting AIS and not exploring (and most likely removing any vestigial testicular tissue) would be very irresponsible, despite the significant distress that can come from learning in early adulthood that one is genetically male, if one has lived one's life and identified as female for all the time preceding this discovery.  Also, knowing the patient is infertile and not disclosing why would probably be considered malpractice or at least an offense to informed consent.

AIS has known risks associated with it. And the patient needs to  know what the known risks are, and also be aware of the condition in case further risks come to light over the coming years, as more research reveals new things, or as other treatment options could emerge over time.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

Quote from: spacial on February 13, 2013, 08:11:18 AM
But I thing the original statement as quoted was saying that, when you test, be prepared to find out things you would rather not know. Especially when we assume there are no porblems.

It may seem that way, but this really is not the case. It's probably the interpretation, though, that Annah took away from how I imperfectly described it. Medical paternalism died (for the most part) a couple of decades ago.

Will try to fill in the distinctions later, as I have to be somewhere soon.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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spacial

Quote from: Elspeth on February 13, 2013, 12:48:27 PM
It may seem that way, but this really is not the case. It's probably the interpretation, though, that Annah took away from how I imperfectly described it. Medical paternalism died (for the most part) a couple of decades ago.

Will try to fill in the distinctions later, as I have to be somewhere soon.

I'd like to believe that, I really would. But.....
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JLT1

Agree with spacial +1

I keep hoping, I keep trying.  However, I don't think medical paternalism died, it just moved up here....
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Elspeth

Quote from: spacial on February 13, 2013, 02:18:25 PM
I'd like to believe that, I really would. But.....

You are probably right. But many of the worst features did die off, if you compare the Dr. Welby stereotype to today. Also, MDs training today and for several years now, have been women in the majority. Not to say women can't be paternalistic, but if they are, it's more subtle.

Thinking now of my ex having a hard time listening to our daughter about stuff than happened in 2nd grade. My ex is a bit impatient, and quick to seek fixes or push for someone to repress feelings in favor of problem-solving, and that is still very true of many docs.  I had a wonderful convo with my youngest today about some of these things, that allowed her to vent and to realize that those things had not been at all her fault or responsibility -- she had a very dismissive, abusive teacher that year, whose husband had just gone off to Afghanistan or Iraq, and who was taking out her issues on our child in particular, with repercussions that still echo in her relationships with classmates who were there, or formed opinions about her based on what went on in that class. I felt like our conversation was a kind of emotional breakthrough for her, and something that may gradually help her move on, and get rid of the feelings that she's had that she was responsible for the teacher's frankly abusive actions.

Then I got Skype messages later on, when she tried to have a similar discussion with my ex that sort of ran into a wall, from what I can tell, having only heard my daughter's side. Hopefully I'll find out more details tomorrow when we're next face-to-face.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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veritatemfurto

sorry to reactivate this year old thread, but i must ask

so if I was to have a genetics test done and it confirmed that I do have some DSD, say xx chapelle's, and i am also transitioning from being assigned male to female, would that actually mean that I'm closer to cisgender than transgender since my genetic sex would match my gender identity? o.O
~;{@ Mel @};~

My GRS on 04-14-2015


Of all the things there are to do on this planet, there's only one thing that I must do- Live!
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noeleena

Hi,

I wont go into details as its not worth it, im intersexed and thats it, i dont need tests to tell me what i know or prepared to talk about it with Dr's  again not worth the hassle, all i said 20 years ago what i knew at age 10 and i made no comment then had i i would have been droped in to some nut house and meded up and lost my mind its that simple i was born in 1947.and things were very different then,

i'v had surgerys and before i went on any meds my body started changes before 20 years ago,  .

in a nut shell  im an intersexed female with masculine  facial feature;s  ,  about myself i dont have my womb or related organs and less of male ones , any way it does not bother me im a 66 year old woman and have a fantastic life, and contented and happy,

it matters not what xx or xy or ony other of some 15 different types we do have or not is after the fact not the deciding feature  of what we are, and some of us intersexed people can have a number of changes take place, with out out side interferance and we should be left alone to decide  who and what we are not some dam so called dr, and what he thinks.

Im just happy  that my people in Germany have got it right we decide and by decree of the Govt we can make the answer for ouir selfs.

als  Frau  ich habe mein Laben wie es sein solite, =

as a woman i have my life as it should be

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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