Hi everyone!
I'm new here and so far I really like this place. I'm so glad that there are others out there, to whom I can relate and who can relate to me.
So first of all, this is the current situation: I am 21 years old, male and androgynous. I look quiet androgynous, but not THAT feminine. For example: Next to your 'typical' guy I look more feminine, next to your 'typical' girl I look more masculine. For some time I hated this, because in high school I was bullied quiet often, because I was different. However, after high school, when I started really discovering who I really am, I came to terms with it and I am now at a point where I can confidently say that I like how I look. I don't have the wish to get an operation, nor do I want to grow breasts or anything of the like. But I want to stay the way I am.
But now I have heard, that pretty much after the age of 25, a lot of guys who look androgynous, started to become more and more masculine. I'm really scared of that. I don't want that to happen. So here's my question: How can I prevent this? Is hrt an option? Antiandrogens? And how would one go about that? I mean I could go see an andrologist and try to get a prescription, but I don't think I would get one for the sake of 'vanity'. It's not the aging issue for me, it's the masculinazation (is that a word?) So how could I go about that? Keep in mind, that I don't have the wish to grow breast tissue.

So far, there are a few natural things that I know that you can do, most of them focused on stimulating estrogen production and/or decrease testosterone. But natural things can of course only go so far.
What I do know:
- Eating soy/tofu products: These are known to stimulate estrogen production and decrease the amount of testosterone in the body.
- keeping away from meat as meat stimulates testosterone.
- Starving: Starving yourself is meant to decrease testosterone production while affecting the liver's abilty to diminish estrogen, therefore more of it will go into your body.
But like I said, those things can only go so far.
As for make up, hair and the likes, these too can only go so far and I don't want to end up looking like a 40 year old guy, who wears make up. (No offense intended) I like to keep people who see me wondering.

Does anybody know anything for that?
Thanks in advance!

Anti androgens, low dose estrogen, possibly breast tissue removal if necessary.  That's my best guess.  I certainly haven't come across anything.  I have the same goal as far as body type and face, but might just compromise and get the boobs if they're part of the package

I'm guessing you would use Spiro? Yeah I don't know if I could get cool with the cleavage. What's bothering me most is the impotence. I still wanna have sex. Do cyproterone and flutamide cause impotence? And are these better or worse than spiro?
Also, how would you go about getting your hands on those? I'm guessing you're not planning to undergo SRS either? How do you get HRT if no transsexuality is present?

I'm not sure about the impotence thing except that it depends on the person.  Some still have use, some don't.  I'm considering SRS, just not for the same reasons I think most trans people do it.  Getting prescribed HRT when not transsexual depends on where you live.  There are many places with informed consent and that's the route I am trying.  I'm hoping not being transsexual will not hinder me.  I will be seeing a doctor within 4-5 months hopefully.

I'm currently in the Netherlands. I don't know how it is here... What I do know is that I definitely do not consider SRS. It just doesn't feel right for me. I don't think I would be happy.
Today at the natural health store I saw pills with pure soy bean extract that is used as a hormone supplement for women with menopause. You think those would help?

They might, they might not.  I wouldn't waste time hoping that they would unless I had no other options.

So true...
Who would I see about antiandrogens? Just my regular doctor? He's not really quick with prescriptions.

Have you tried googling anything related to transgender along with your city?  That's usually the easiest way to find something. 

There may be support groups that could lead you in the right direction, or therapists who have experience in that kind of thing.

Or search for "informed consent HRT Amsterdam" or whatever city you are in or close to.  I'm not sure if searching in English would be best or in Dutch, you could give both a try

Okay, I'll do that. Thanks for your help so far and good luck with your doctors appointment! 

Hi, starving is never an option since it has no benefits to your health at all. And food such as tofu etc. which contain estrogenic/antiandrogenic substances has an inadequate amount of them. Depending on where you live it might get easier/harder to get on HRT. If you live in Sweden it'll be impossible for you to get on hormones for being androgynous. I'm in a situation just like yours, I'll be 21 in just a few days and I hate looking masculine/male, it'd be better to be somewhere in between genders.
Just my yada-yada...

So, bubblegum, as I understand your post, you wish to remain an androgynous, femme guy.

You are worried about future masculinization.  But you are not looking for any significant levels of feminization.

It seems to me, that anti-androgens are a reasonable idea to discuss with your doctor or therapist.  Depending on where you live and what sort of medication plan you might have, there are several options out there.  In your case, you might want to consider something, or -things, that act like chemical castration.  Or even an orchidectomy.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 06, 2014, 05:11:03 PM
So, bubblegum, as I understand your post, you wish to remain an androgynous, femme guy.

You are worried about future masculinization.  But you are not looking for any significant levels of feminization.

It seems to me, that anti-androgens are a reasonable idea to discuss with your doctor or therapist.  Depending on where you live and what sort of medication plan you might have, there are several options out there.  In your case, you might want to consider something, or -things, that act like chemical castration.  Or even an orchidectomy.

But would lack of either sex hormone in the system not be something a doctor would recommend against?  It's my understanding that having neither testosterone nor estrogen in your system can be a health risk.

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 06, 2014, 06:27:59 PM
But would lack of either sex hormone in the system not be something a doctor would recommend against?  It's my understanding that having neither testosterone nor estrogen in your system can be a health risk.

True, in the long-term bubblegum would run the risk of osteoporosis.  But no more so than any male-bodied eunuch.  Your adrenal glands would still produce a small amount of testosterone.  And calcium supplements should help retain bone density.  Maybe even a bit of exogenous T and E if bubblegum wants to remain sexually active.

The thought of being on no hormones at all wouldn't be advisable in this situation. I'd say that you'll need both blockers and a very low amount of Oestrogen to avoid serious health problems. But I'm not any doctor, yet.

@Jamie D: Yes that's pretty much the goal. I"m not really looking for further feminization, like I said I look quiet androgynous as I am, but I'm worried that things will change once I pass 25. (Jaw getting wider, chin and orbital rim more prominent etc.)
I wouldn't mind a little bit of feminization though, if Estrogen were to become the most prominent hormone in my body. It's just that I don't have the wish for cleavage nor do I want to become impotent (!) or start Viagra at the tender age of 30.
However the problem is, WHICH Antiandrogen would be advisable? Spiro is out of the question I think, seeing as it does cause permanent impotence after a certain while.
The other (bigger) problem is, how would I get a doctor to even prescribe it? I'm not trans and if you look at my case from an objective point of view, the entire reason for this wish is vanity. And what doctor would give you medications to keep you looking young(er) and childish(er) (thus more feminine) only because you go up to him and say: Hey, I wanna keep looking like 21 forever.
The only thing I'd get is a one way ticket to psych.

Quote from: Bubblegum on March 07, 2014, 04:24:09 PM
@Jamie D: Yes that's pretty much the goal. I"m not really looking for further feminization, like I said I look quiet androgynous as I am, but I'm worried that things will change once I pass 25. (Jaw getting wider, chin and orbital rim more prominent etc.)
I wouldn't mind a little bit of feminization though, if Estrogen were to become the most prominent hormone in my body. It's just that I don't have the wish for cleavage nor do I want to become impotent (!) or start Viagra at the tender age of 30.
However the problem is, WHICH Antiandrogen would be advisable? Spiro is out of the question I think, seeing as it does cause permanent impotence after a certain while.
The other (bigger) problem is, how would I get a doctor to even prescribe it? I'm not trans and if you look at my case from an objective point of view, the entire reason for this wish is vanity. And what doctor would give you medications to keep you looking young(er) and childish(er) (thus more feminine) only because you go up to him and say: Hey, I wanna keep looking like 21 forever.
The only thing I'd get is a one way ticket to psych.

Unfortunately sterility is a side-effect from taking AA's for a longer period. So it doesn't really matter which blocker you take, they'll all cause sterility sooner or later. To get a prescription you have to be honest and explain how you feel about your body and yourself.

Sterility wouldn't bother me, I don't want kids anyway. But the inabilty to get it up would definitely be an issue.

Quote from: Bubblegum on March 07, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
Sterility wouldn't bother me, I don't want kids anyway. But the inabilty to get it up would definitely be an issue.

Then I don't think that there are any problems with Spiro. People taking Spiro are still able to function sexually, although they do tend to have to get a "warm-up" before.
I'm no expert on this since I've never had sex nor do I want to. And I'm just starting my identity-journey towards wherever it might be.