QuoteCan someone point me to some information that tells me how I can live as a happy male?

It seams my option are to live as a happy TG person (something I am trying), transistion or the other unthinkable option. No-one has told me how to be a happy male and I am affraid that I sometimes find it hard to live as a cross dresser. What should I do given I have not done anything to transistion. I wish I had a choice but in the end I may only have the 'choices' everyone else had found.

Alice,

I sure don't know how to do the happy as a male thing. 14 years after first transitioning, I still haven't found an answer. I think that I know who I am, and have some ideas of what I could do to be happy, but given the constraints of society, these aren't easily done. Hope you can find your path.

Zythyra

Quote from: y2gender on August 10, 2007, 12:12:19 PM
Many of our detractors believe that being transgender/transsexual, along with GLB, is a choice as opposed to that we're born as who we are. Also, if it were a choice, under current system it's harder to get insurance to pay for treatment. I'm guessing these could be among the reasons why those who believe that being TS isn't a choice, trying to counter these kinds of attitudes. I personally still believe it's a choice. Not one to take lightly, for some it is indeed life or death, but still a choice.

Zythyra

Again, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically. We have been hashing this over for weeks on three or four different threads and the same semantics keep being repeated.

And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.

QuoteAgain, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically.

I'm curious if any other people on the no choice fence are actually speaking metaphorically as opposed to literally about this issue. Many have expressed their opinions quite adamantly.

Zythyra

Quote from: y2gender on August 10, 2007, 11:18:40 PM

QuoteAgain, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically.

I'm curious if any other people on the no choice fence are actually speaking metaphorically as opposed to literally about this issue. Many have expressed their opinions quite adamantly.

Zythyra

You don't have to be curious because, literally speaking, of course, there is a choice. (she says, as the waters continue to be muddied)

Language is not precise and the longer this goes on without understanding the difference between literal and figurative, the more the message is lost. I am afraid at this point we have become cats chsing our tails. This medium has always been a poor one to discuss complex issues. If we all met and talked face to face we could come to a consensus in minutes probably.

QuoteYou don't have to be curious because, literally speaking, of course, there is a choice. (she says, as the waters continue to be muddied)

Language is not precise and the longer this goes on without understanding the difference between literal and figurative, the more the message is lost. I am afraid at this point we have become cats chsing our tails. This medium has always been a poor one to discuss complex issues. If we all met and talked face to face we could come to a consensus in minutes probably.

Melissa,

I'm a musician, composer and songwriter, words and their meaning, both literal and metaphorical, are an important part of my work. I strive for communicating and expressing my thoughts in a clear manner, knowing full well that I often fail miserably.

No doubt we'd all understand each other much quicker talking in a room, however we're here on this imperfect internet medium, and dialog is happening. I personally believe we're getting somewhere, I'm understanding opposing points of view better than I had at the beginning of this conversation. I'd even say that there are some people on this forum whose posts I use to dread, who I've recently grown to like 

Zythyra

Certainly with that kind of literacy, you can see my point that the POV that "no choice" is figurative even if those who promote that view aren't aware of it.


Way, way back when, I made the statement that pushing this as a choice is  political suicide and that point has been lost.

How about this?  Transition is a choice; the overwhelming urge/need to transition isn't.

Quote from: Melissa on August 12, 2007, 06:18:13 PM
How about this?  Transition is a choice; the overwhelming urge/need to transition isn't.

How about this? 

2 + 2 = 4

(or)

2 + 2 = 5





tink

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.

What kind of options would those be?  Could one with gender dysphoria "choose" to live as an effeminate man and be perceived by others as gay?  I've heard lots of people mention "other viable options," but have yet to find out how one who hates living as a man could choose any other path than to transition - be it a TG transition or a TS transition.

~Fae

Quote from: Fae on August 13, 2007, 12:19:59 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.

What kind of options would those be?  Could one with gender dysphoria "choose" to live as an effeminate man and be perceived by others as gay?  I've heard lots of people mention "other viable options," but have yet to find out how one who hates living as a man could choose any other path than to transition - be it a TG transition or a TS transition.

~Fae

How would I know? Ask the people who have the choices they have to make what the alterenatives are.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:39:19 PM

Quote from: Fae on August 13, 2007, 12:19:59 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.

What kind of options would those be?

How would I know?

Now this is, in a nutshell, what I really don't get in the 'no choice' viewpoint: you make it sound like transition was so awful that given the option, one should instead choose anything you can't think of. I'm sorry, but that does not sound right, but then I might be misreading it (yet again).

Transition is certainly something that involves hard work, serious discomfort, and eventually medical procedures that cannot be reversed. It should not be attempted lightly. Nevertheless, the criteria are ultimately related to one's quality of life: if the life after transition is likely to be better than it would be without transition, and if one is pretty much certain of not having second thoughts afterwards, then go for it. Even if it would be possible to figure out how to survive without transition. There's no need to be suicidal, just thoroughly realistic about the consequences of both transitioning and not doing so.

For me, the option I eventually ended up with was to lose faith in the binary gender system. Others are likely to continue seeing me as male, but that's ultimately their problem -- I'm doing what seems comfortable, whether it is fixing a bike or putting on nail polish. If it was just up to me I'd like to have SRS, but it's not an all-encompassing need and the social drawbacks are at the moment (and in the foreseeable future) sufficient to keep me from seeking medical treatment. In my case, a TG transition was never an option: it was either full TS or nothing, in either case with a pretty androgynous social role. I've chosen the latter, but it's also very easy to see how my personal history could have been different, with different results. The hardest part in figuring things out was understanding the emotional issues involved: analysing something that is very non-rational in nature was not an easy thing to do.

I guess it all depends in part on the intensity of one's GID, but also on one's position regarding the social gender system.

  Nfr

Quote
How about this? 

2 + 2 = 4

(or)

2 + 2 = 5

2+2=4  is a valid equation

2+2=5  is false and can't be solved


did i pass the test? 

Well, I recently figured out that this premise of "transition or die" or even "transition or be miserable" is actually something called a Hobson's Choice, which is basically a choice between 2 undesirable options.  So then it technically IS a choice (albeit a special kind of choice); it's just not the same kind of choice which is commonly thought of when people hear the word "choice".  So in this case, the word "choice" is actually a misnomer.

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 05:59:22 AM

Quote
How about this? 

2 + 2 = 4

(or)

2 + 2 = 5

2+2=4  is a valid equation

2+2=5  is false and can't be solved


did i pass the test? 

But if you apply logic, using "or", it can be simplified into "true OR false" and with logic rules, this would translate into "true".   Sorry, that's the programmer in me, although I did take a philosophical logic course in college and did very well.