Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 08:53:19 PM
I suppose I wasn't the best person to comment on this issue.  My elder sister was an outspoken feminist, my father was not traditionally masculine and my mother was not traditionally feminine.  I also lived in the middle of nowhere.  My experiences cannot compare to anything in this thread.  I apologize for continuing to make it feel like a debate.

That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I'm going to add some here. Every time I talk about stuff like this here, I end up feeling awful. And I think part of that is my discomfort with the subject at all (for one, being a guy and also this stuff is triggering and real), and part of that is the reception I receive. Even when it's couched in somewhat respectful terms. What I end up hearing despite how the post is crafted, is judgment and disbelief. And a lot of 'me, me, me'. It's apples and oranges. I'm not talking about you.

My discussing issues I faced as an AFAB person (I hate that term but it's easier) has nothing to do with your experience or your cis girlfriend's experience (who of course somehow escaped all this).
It doesn't invalidate your experience or your life. It has nothing to do with you. I know you were bullied, persecuted for being girly, and god knows what. It's still apples and oranges.

And I'm not just saying this for me but we have a lot of AFAB people here who were affected by the female experience, not to mention cis female SOs. We should feel comfortable discussing gender issues on a gender forum. And I'm not feeling that right now.

Hugs. 

I'm sorry you get this reaction.  I for one think it is important to talk about.  Not just for you but for a large portion of the community on here that have had to deal with the same.  You shouldn't be made to feel awful for discussing this.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 09:04:29 PM
That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I feel that I should apologize as well. I'm guilty as charged in turning this into a debate as well. I have already stated why in my previous posts, but those reasons were not a justification. I didn't stop to think before I started to type.

This should be a place where you can feel free to talk about something that has clearly been an issue for you, and sadly it seems like you are being denied that opportunity.

One observation I'd like to point out is how you started that last post and many like it. While I for one am grateful for your forgiving nature, might I be bold enough to suggest that this would be a good place to stand your ground a little more?

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:00:49 PM
That seems like a suggestion about male privilege. 

What?

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:00:49 PM
Why were trans women brought up early in this thread when it wasn't about them?  ThePhoenix's remark made me feel very uncomfortable and I felt like I needed to defend myself.  Now I feel that way even more.  I apologize for bringing up my experience; I was only trying to suggest the rigid categories separating AFAB and AMAB may not be accurately descriptive for everyone's passage through childhood.

Honestly, I don't recall bringing up trans women. If I did, it was probably an offensive move because I've never been able to discuss AFAB issues without someone bringing it up. And again, I'm not talking about anyone or any post specifically, just the tone that always happens.

And I know trans people are often very defensive about their childhoods. But no matter how masculine I was or no matter how my parents treated me, I didn't have a male childhood. It's different. Of course there are a wide range of experiences, but we still as a society are divided in half by sex. If there's a tomboy raised only by men, allowed to wear whatever she wants, do whatever she wants, that doesn't make that not true. And that certainly doesn't eliminate the socialization she receives. She still grows up female. No matter how empowering her family is, she still grows up as a girl in a male dominated culture. All the love and affirming messages in the world can't erase that.

Of course every child grows up differently. It doesn't change the fact we grow up in a sexist culture. And being feminine doesn't give little boys a girl's experience and vice versa. I mean, my parents could be that couple who refused to disclose their baby's sex and they still couldn't protect me from the world.

I removed my posts.  I'm sorry, I hardly ever participate on the forum and some posts in this thread brought up some bad memories of anti-trans sites that I won't mention, and maybe I wasn't in the right state of mind to respond. 

Quote from: ErinM on March 20, 2014, 10:10:07 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 09:04:29 PM
That's ok hon. It's not just you. I've gotten this vibe every time I've tried to talk about women's issues on here.

I'm just going to say this, not to you Inanna or anyone specific. And not just about this thread either, but the general tone that always happens.

I don't think I have ever mentioned my childhood whenever a trans woman was talking about the issues MAAB children go through. To me, it would seem horribly out of place. And yet, the opposite has happened every time I have brought up feminist type stuff or growing up female, etc. And not just one or two (I'm not picking on anyone, many of you are my friends and people I respect very much), but this is the common response. Why?

I feel that I should apologize as well. I'm guilty as charged in turning this into a debate as well. I have already stated why in my previous posts, but those reasons were not a justification. I didn't stop to think before I started to type.

This should be a place where you can feel free to talk about something that has clearly been an issue for you, and sadly it seems like you are being denied that opportunity.

One observation I'd like to point out is how you started that last post and many like it. While I for one am grateful for your forgiving nature, might I be bold enough to suggest that this would be a good place to stand your ground a little more?

Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

Quote from: Inanna on March 20, 2014, 10:49:08 PM
I removed my posts.  I'm sorry, I hardly ever participate on the forum and some posts in this thread brought up some bad memories of anti-trans sites that I won't mention, and maybe I wasn't in the right state of mind to respond.

you're fine sweetie. It's really not you, this has been brewing for days.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.

Quote from: Edge on March 20, 2014, 10:58:36 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.

Thanks. Yeah, I think it's too much to expect honestly - for a boy to thrive under such conditions. I mean you basically remove everything it means to be male from him. Really, I don't think most cis men would fare well.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when you say that you're not the least bit upset about anyone or any post and yet you feel honestly feel judged. Are you being honest with yourself when you speak about your feelings towards what is being said by others?

Perhaps I'm being way off base here, but I only bring this up because I have been guilty of the "it's not you, it's me attitude" I've had towards the world. I ended up conditioning myself to believe that the way others treated me was my fault, that it was because I was so deformed inside and out that I deserved what I got.  One thing that I have struggled with is becoming assertive enough to ask for what I need and to stand up for it and this has applied not only to my transition, but other aspects of my life as well.

There is nothing weak in being affected by you upbringing. It's called being human. You may not have been able to  slay you demons as a child (I know I couldn't), but it looks like your starting now.

I'm left with one more question: is there anything I can do to be supportive to you?

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

this just kicked me in the gut. "a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman". that is me. so much of what you've posted about in this thread I could relate to, but that statement feels like a core truth for me. I've been following this thread and felt too new and ignorant to comment but I am so grateful for this thread and what you have said.

and FA, your signature is awesome.

Quote from: ErinM on March 20, 2014, 11:29:45 PM

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 10:52:36 PM
Thanks hon, but I really don't want anyone to apologize. No apologies are warranted. I know no one meant any ill intent. And whatever people posted is what they were feeling at the time. That's okay. And there really aren't any specific posts or posters I have in mind for this. It's more the general tone. I'm not in the least upset at anyone or any post. I'm just saying I walk from these discussions feeling pretty grimy when I was hoping for support.

And honestly, I feel judged. I guess for being weak enough to be affected by growing up female. You know, sure there are 'strong women' out there who 'rose above' or whatever. Well, that wasn't me - a confused little boy terrified of growing into a woman. And honestly, it's not most cis women either.

I have to admit that I'm a bit confused when you say that you're not the least bit upset about anyone or any post and yet you feel honestly feel judged. Are you being honest with yourself when you speak about your feelings towards what is being said by others?

Well, whenever I'm upset or ranting on here, which isn't often, it's usually an accumulation of things, discussions, etc. I've been here for a lot of years, so sometimes that seeps in. I can honestly say I'm not upset by any individual or post in this thread, just the accumulation. And really just the grimy feeling I get afterward.

QuoteI'm left with one more question: is there anything I can do to be supportive to you?

You are now. 

FA, I love yah but I feel like you are always holding back on this topic and hiding behind the impersonal category of FAAB issues when you experienced and are suffering from FA issues, which have plenty to do with being FAAB but didn't hurt you just *because* you are FAAB, they hurt you because you experienced something bad. nobody will be bothered by your experience if you will let it be your own experiences and not necessarily turn that into like an ownership of female experience and the experience of being treated as a woman. Of course you have a partial ownership... your experiences, but not of the whole thing.

It's the insistence on the line between being treated as a woman as MAAB vs being treated as a woman as FAAB. Yes there are differences in the timing of it maybe, not even always... but if it is universal to people perceived and living as women, it's the same treatment. Ultimately you are speaking for people who you decided do not have a voice, at least not the same voice. And you act like it's not a less valid voice but do you really believe that? Do you really deep down believe that an MTF has an equally valid voice as you on what it means to live as a person who is perceived as a woman?

Sorry if I am being too critical I just don't get why you need to label your issues and put them in a group of maybe similar people. Nobody would be defensive if you were just willing to talk about your own experiences. I completely understand if that is uncomfortable but no matter how many people do agree that it sucks to be female and females are seen as the lesser sex (bc people already know that. People already know that feminism exists for a reason.. at least people around here I would hope) I don't believe that will ever help you heal specific pain from specific incidents in your life. Your FA issues which should matter and are important to you.

God i always hate myself after i post though, so please if this is annoying just ignore it completely. Maybe I sound sure of myself but I am never sure of anything anymore when it comes to gender. :/

Also, I'm kinda hoping it wasn't my last post that made you feel judged but just in case, it makes completely perfect sense to me that you would suffer over feeling affected by your past. But being unaffected doesn't make you strong, it makes you unhuman. The evidence that you are strong is in the fact that you feel affected, you know it sucks and you keep pushing forward anyway to be true to who you are. Seriously... that is not something everyone can do.... Some people, actually probably most people go their whole life denying themselves of who they are over that pain. It takes incredible strength to take the reins.

Quote from: sad panda on March 21, 2014, 12:15:43 AM
FA, I love yah but I feel like you are always holding back on this topic and hiding behind the impersonal category of FAAB issues when you experienced and are suffering from FA issues, which have plenty to do with being FAAB but didn't hurt you just *because* you are FAAB, they hurt you because you experienced something bad.

Maybe I am holding back. It's very difficult to talk about this, but most of what I am feeling is not tangible - I wasn't raped, I didn't experience overt sexism, I wasn't abused. Most cis women I know had it way worse than me. But what I'm going through is female specific. It doesn't mean every single female on earth feels the same, but it is still pretty universal. But these things sound trivial, if you're not going through them. And they are subtle. And so ingrained in our culture, most women are used to it.

But anyway, like I said I don't think it's wrong to say girls go through X, have X expectations, etc. I mean if a trans woman is talking how difficult it was growing up male and all the expectations that were placed on her - I honestly don't feel qualified to offer any kind of opinion or refutation on that. And I don't feel like my being masculine, being permitted masculine activities by parents, or bullied for it, etc is any kind of comment on that. And I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or be rude, but I would feel pretty stupid talking about my childhood like it was any kind of comment or had anything to do with that. So, I really don't know why trans women do.

There does seem to be a double standard. I would never think of debating a trans woman on male expectations, childhood, etc. I didn't go through it and I'm not going to frame my childhood as if it was somehow comparable like many trans woman seem to do. Having a male identity does not qualify me to talk about the cis or born male experience. Yet, many trans women seem to feel this way. They may think they don't, but get all up in arms talking about their childhood whenever an AFAB person even broaches the subject.

To put it in some perspective - a trans woman says 'boys are taught not to cry or be vulnerable'

If I were to come in - 'yeah well, I had it rough too, my dad wouldn't let me cry either or he'd give me something to cry about (true story) and my cis male cousin doesn't seem to have internalized that - he cried at my sister's wedding so... oh did I mention I was bullied?'

This is what a lot of replies sound like. Or the gist of them anyway.

Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Quote from: FA on March 20, 2014, 11:22:45 PM
I struggle with feeling weak for being affected by things too, but it's ok.


Thanks. Yeah, I think it's too much to expect honestly - for a boy to thrive under such conditions. I mean you basically remove everything it means to be male from him. Really, I don't think most cis men would fare well.

I've watched cis gender friends question their sexuality and such for less, so you are spot on there. 

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 01:36:56 AM
Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Not sure what you mean. But as my friend just pointed out, I'm probably being a little too candid here. All I can say is the responses from these threads make me feel like I'm doing something wrong by even broaching the subject.

I expect I'll feel wretched in the morning and want to delete all this. But really, are trans women expected to justify themselves when talking about the male experience? What if I start jumping down every woman's throat when she talks about male restrictions? 'Well, I went in and bought a sparkly pink tiara and a tutu and I didn't have any problem as some big dude with a beard, so....'

All I want is a little respect that I know what I'm talking about. That's it.

I wish I could stop the backlash this causes  I do.  You have every right to talk about these things and you should.