Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 21, 2014, 01:54:59 AM
I wish I could stop the backlash this causes  I do.  You have every right to talk about these things and you should.

Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

I honestly don't know.  I don't think you should have to prove anything to talk about it.  The simple fact you are AFAB means you have every right to talk about it.  Just as AMAB have the right to talk about being raised AMAB.  I feel awful that this is even a thing that happens, that you and everyone else can't discuss this without having to prove yourselves or being made to feel bad about it.

Discuss it as much as wish. 

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 01:36:56 AM
Most women are AFAB, and those that aren't feel uneasy about the separation from the experience.  I don't think it's anything nefarious.

Sorry hon, I think I just got what you mean here. That makes a lot of sense and I sympathize. From my point of view, this born female thing is huge and whenever I try to talk to about it, I feel like people are trying to minimize it. Or go on about MAAB experiences, or even worse - make it sound somehow as if I or other AFAB peeps are somehow lacking for being affected.

And obviously being trans has a huge effect on us. But growing up female does too. And honestly, it freakin hurts. My being 'male brained' or whatever didn't stop that.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

Sorry FA, but there you are again. Stop feeling guilty for feeling angry! You should be able to talk about this without needing to defend yourself. You are entitled to feel angry over this. I think it's unhealthy to be holding it back.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:46:02 AM
Sorry hon, I think I just got what you mean here. That makes a lot of sense and I sympathize. From my point of view, this born female thing is huge and whenever I try to talk to about it, I feel like people are trying to minimize it. Or go on about MAAB experiences, or even worse - make it sound somehow as if I or other AFAB peeps are somehow lacking for being affected.

And obviously being trans has a huge effect on us. But growing up female does too. And honestly, it freakin hurts. My being 'male brained' or whatever didn't stop that.

In all honesty I know that as a trans woman I basically need to learn to set my hang ups aside, shut the hell up about my experiences for a minute and listen to what's being said here. Like you said, there are plenty of other threads out there for us MAAB folks to discuss our issues.

I can never know first what it's like to experience sexism as a child, but I should be willing to hear what FAAB people experienced without trying to trivialize or downplaying it.

AF, you're absolutely right on every point regarding the differences about how AFABs have to deal with the lesser sex issues growing up!

I just reread the first few pages and there are a lot of generalizations being made regarding trans women. I don't fall into most of those generalizations. I didn't fall into the typical male programming. As FA said in a post earlier about being an anomaly, I fall best in that group. I grew up mainly around women. I had mostly female friends. I saw firsthand the things they went through regarding sexism. I've always had a very nurturing mother like personality. I wasn't ashamed to cry in front of others. The list goes on. In a lot of ways pre-transition I was already being my female self and didn't even realize it till now. Which is why transition has been a bit less difficult in some aspects. I didn't have to learn female socialization. My foundation for it was already there. I guess this is why I stay away from the trans community. I just can't relate with a lot of Mtfs when it comes to their difficulties/experiences. In all honesty I feel more alone than anything. But regardless I'd like to one day be more involved at some point. Which is why I'm posting here now  . I just wanna help by sharing my own experiences. Maybe there is someone else out there just like me.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on March 21, 2014, 02:39:39 AM
I honestly don't know.  I don't think you should have to prove anything to talk about it.  The simple fact you are AFAB means you have every right to talk about it.  Just as AMAB have the right to talk about being raised AMAB.  I feel awful that this is even a thing that happens, that you and everyone else can't discuss this without having to prove yourselves or being made to feel bad about it.

Discuss it as much as wish. 

YEP! this is what I was thinking. Isn't the point of this forum is for everyone to be able to support each other and hear one another out regarding our experiences??

Quote from: ErinM on March 21, 2014, 02:53:45 AM

Sorry FA, but there you are again. Stop feeling guilty for feeling angry! You should be able to talk about this without needing to defend yourself. You are entitled to feel angry over this. I think it's unhealthy to be holding it back.

Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

QuoteIn all honesty I know that as a trans woman I basically need to learn to set my hang ups aside, shut the hell up about my experiences for a minute and listen to what's being said here. Like you said, there are plenty of other threads out there for us MAAB folks to discuss our issues.

I can never know first what it's like to experience sexism as a child, but I should be willing to hear what FAAB people experienced without trying to trivialize or downplaying it.

Well, there's a lot of pressure on trans women and I understand that. And I know that generally you all have a lot more pressure than I have. It's a much scarier, and more dangerous world out there for trans women. And I know you all are made to feel defensive in so many respects. I just wish it wasn't so. But it's really okay not to have had an AFAB experience. It really is. It means absolutely nothing for your status as woman. Really, it may even be a blessing (I sometimes feel blessed at not having male restrictions drilled into me). And I will never know what it is to be a middle aged or old woman like you will.

going on 62, it's not going to be a beautiful new body for me.
I enjoy the female emotions (though they baffle me at times) and the physical changes.
Not so bad, I can switch between genders mentally as needed.
But this breaking down in a puddle of tears for the silliest of reasons has me worried.
There isn't anyone for me to consult or confide in where I live.
In that respect, I'm quite alone.  The doctors here give me some seriously no-way looks and quickly shut me down if I try to bring it up. 

A true mature and transparent support site lends support to all (who agree to ToS).
As FA has eluded dealing with our pasts, our feelings our experiences are not easy.

He has done so with great feeling and understanding.

Late bloomer, you are welcome and your sisters and brothers are here for you ALL of the time. As we all are for each other.

Hugs to everyone

Cindy

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
Thanks hon. I'm sorry for coming off angry. I just don't understand why it seems like I have to prove anything to even talk about this. I mean, sure I've read and can come up with a zillion studies about what AFAB children go through. But why should I have to? How is this even a debate? Do people seriously believe sexism doesn't affect girls from birth? Why should I feel bad for pointing this out?

It shouldn't be a debate. But it still is. So little actually seems to move forward.

There is a really screwed up sick feeling to having to scream really loud in order to convince people you are damaged. It can make you feel pretty damn worthless to be forced to beg people to understand that things hurt.

Also, you really don't need to say "other people growing up as women had it worse" every time. There isn't any competition. Your experiences are unique to you, and the way you feel about them are the way you feel about them. There isn't a wrong way to feel. You are 100% justified in feeling. And like I've said before: feeling things doesn't make you weak, it makes you, you. And nothing that hurts sounds trivial to me.

I'm really sorry you don't feel safe enough here to talk about it here. I think I kind of contributed to the problem here and I'm sorry. I can get kind of defensive when I feel like people are telling me what I am like, or what my life was like. That wasn't you, but it was a thing that happened and I responded to in the same thread, and probably I shouldn't have because you could have used your own space. So, sorry.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 03:10:03 AM
Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

Of course most guys don't talk about it. Most guys never experienced it and at the risk of resorting to generalizations, guys seem to have a lot of issues talking about anything relating to their feelings or anything personal for that matter. Society traditionally has frowned upon it. It seems like a bit of a nasty paradox that you feel you can't talk about your restrictions growing up perceived as a girl because of the restrictions you feel as a man.

Quote
Well, there's a lot of pressure on trans women and I understand that. And I know that generally you all have a lot more pressure than I have. It's a much scarier, and more dangerous world out there for trans women. And I know you all are made to feel defensive in so many respects. I just wish it wasn't so. But it's really okay not to have had an AFAB experience. It really is. It means absolutely nothing for your status as woman. Really, it may even be a blessing (I sometimes feel blessed at not having male restrictions drilled into me). And I will never know what it is to be a middle aged or old woman like you will.

I thank you for that. The reality is that women are at least granted a lot more latitude when talking about their experiences and feelings. I thank The Universe that I was able to have as many female friends as I did growing up because I at least had the someone to talk about at least some of what was going on for me.

Talking about these kind of things is like playing Hot Potato with a live hand grenade, but you created this thread for a reason. I for one want to see you feel like you can speak your peace without judgement or fear of stepping on anyone's toes.

I didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

I've noticed lately..not accusing anyone..but I've noticed that there are some transmen who wana have their cake and eat it too. They wana cash in on male privilege, have their male identity but still say they understand the female experience better than transwomen.

Once again I didn't really read the whole topic so sorry if I'm repeating someone.

Anywho, here's the thing for me. I've wanted to be female since I was 5. I've always embodied femininity as I could. When I was a kid, people always asked my mom about her daughter cuz yeah. Everybody thought I was a girl. Boy mode is hard for me, legit. Like, if my hair is longer than 3 inches I generally don't pass a boy ever.

I'm 18 years old. I was like 17 or just turning 18 when I started transition. Since then there's probably been a period of 3 mos at best where I passec as male. Every other second, I've lived as female.

I know what it's like to have a panic attack in a dark parking lot cuz a skeevy guy followed me out. Or at a rest stop or whereverf else. I know what its like to be sexually intimidated and harassed..and even more though I dont like to discuss it (I have been, lately, but in more safe environments than this).

I know what its like ti be trivialized, maginalized and ignored. I've never really known what its like to feel like I'm important or matter, and yeah I use sex a lot and ya know what the sick thing is? I know why I do. Its cuz that way guys SEE me. I don't mind being objectified to an extent because honestly its better than feeling like nothing.

So to sit there and say cuz some MtFs parody womanhood that means every transgirl does, rubs me the wrong way. I know I know the female experience because I know at the end of the day thats not stuff a man can feel. Nobody sees a man in me. And at the end of the day this is my life, I'm going to have to face this forever, cuz its just who I am, and i can never change that.The fact is, for transmen? Who they are is someone who's lucky enough to feel like a man inside, so they can take a drug that'll make them matter.

Sorry if it makes no sense, ima bit drunk

And i wanted to add, I love transmen, btw, oh my god I loove transmen, some of the sweetest people I ever met were transguys. So please don't think that post was bashing, I'm just trying to be real about the complexities and nuances of individual experience. Generalizations are never good, that's all.

I guess for me it comes from the perspective of growing up without ANY kind of real socialization. I was homeschooled, didn't have many friends, most people thought I was a girl till I was a teenager, and my mom never really forced gender roles on me or my siblings. So the male experience is genuinely a mystery to me..

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 04:56:23 AM
I didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

Might I suggest you go back and read this thread in its entirety?

Quote from: ErinM on March 21, 2014, 05:22:19 AM
Might I suggest you go back and read this thread in its entirety?

7 pages? Not very realistic at this hour and frame of mind. I've breezed through a bit and I think what I said applies to the earlier comments. Def NOT targeting any individual here (specifically NOT the OP, I like him a tonn, and I understand his initial point). Just ranting about a certain stupid thought process. Janet Mock said it best "I was born a baby". I didn't grow up in a very gendered environment at all...I didn't really grow up as "a little boy" truthfully I barely grew up as a person. I only came into my own in adulthood, so pretty recently, and so far it's been completely female.

Just saying, don't talk about how someone grew up like you know, just cuz you know they have a penis or a vagina. Childhood experiences are very nuanced cuz at the end iften times kids blend together with less differentiating. The way I grew? My mom loved us all the same, but my dad? Ohh he looved my masculine sister. Shes genderqueer now, but ohh she was the smart one. The athletic one. They played sports and she was talented and go a have a good career one day. Me? I liked to play girl games and toys and I was queit. I was the stupid, worthless one the one that was everybodys punching bag including an old pervert and yeah, I think it was cuz I wa female inside. I was too feminine and weak.

I'm sorry for the rant. Chidhood is not a discussion for a late night (early morning?), drunken post break up stupor lool. So sorry everybody rant over. Everybodys different! Let's all just get along and accept ecerybodys experience without comparing, thanks

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 05:10:18 AM
And i wanted to add, I love transmen, btw, oh my god I loove transmen, some of the sweetest people I ever met were transguys. So please don't think that post was bashing, I'm just trying to be real about the complexities and nuances of individual experience. Generalizations are never good, that's all.

I guess for me it comes from the perspective of growing up without ANY kind of real socialization. I was homeschooled, didn't have many friends, most people thought I was a girl till I was a teenager, and my mom never really forced gender roles on me or my siblings. So the male experience is genuinely a mystery to me..

Well, you're certainly a pretty lady, so I don't doubt you're experiencing womanhood and everything positive and negative about it now. But that's the key word - now. There's a lot between 0 and 17.

QuoteI didn't read the whole thread but I found some of the comments at the beginning pretty harsh.

I've noticed lately..not accusing anyone..but I've noticed that there are some transmen who wana have their cake and eat it too. They wana cash in on male privilege, have their male identity but still say they understand the female experience better than transwomen.

Not sure if you're referring to my posts or not. But honestly, yeah as far as being a 0-27 girl, I do know something. Because I was. I know what it is to be a young girl and young woman. My being male or having a 'male brain' (which I think is too simplistic an explanation) or whatever doesn't change that. And in a way, yeah, I have experienced being female in ways trans women don't. Just like they've experienced being male in ways I never will. No matter how girly a trans girl was, she wasn't born into being female. I was. So, I do know something about the female experience.

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 05:35:09 AM
Well, you're certainly a pretty lady, so I don't doubt you're experiencing womanhood and everything positive and negative about it now. But that's the key word - now. There's a lot between 0 and 17.

Not sure if you're referring to my posts or not. But honestly, yeah as far as being a 0-27 girl, I do know something. Because I was. I know what it is to be a young girl and young woman. My being male or having a 'male brain' (which I think is too simplistic an explanation) or whatever doesn't change that. And in a way, yeah, I have experienced being female in ways trans women don't. Just like they've experienced being male in ways I never will. No matter how girly a trans girl was, she wasn't born into being female. I was. So, I do know something about the female experience.

Not for me! There wasn't anything. Like you people have no idea how I grew up or a lot of people. Like..no friends. No boyfriends, hah, right. No internet till I was a teenager. Just a weird family that didn't like me cuz I wa feminine and stupid and weak. Like you have no idea. It didn't feel like being a boy and it didn't even feel like being a person and I forget a lot of it. But whatever

Read my above post I'm not go a repeat myself.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 05:27:39 AM
7 pages? Not very realistic at this hour and frame of mind. I've breezed through a bit and I think what I said applies to the earlier comments. Def NOT targeting any individual here (specifically NOT the OP, I like him a tonn, and I understand his initial point). Just ranting about a certain stupid thought process. Janet Mock said it best "I was born a baby". I didn't grow up in a very gendered environment at all...I didn't really grow up as "a little boy" truthfully I barely grew up as a person. I only came into my own in adulthood, so pretty recently, and so far it's been completely female.

Just saying, don't talk about how someone grew up like you know, just cuz you know they have a penis or a vagina. Childhood experiences are very nuanced cuz at the end iften times kids blend together with less differentiating. The way I grew? My mom loved us all the same, but my dad? Ohh he looved my masculine sister. Shes genderqueer now, but ohh she was the smart one. The athletic one. They played sports and she was talented and go a have a good career one day. Me? I liked to play girl games and toys and I was queit. I was the stupid, worthless one the one that was everybodys punching bag including an old pervert and yeah, I think it was cuz I wa female inside. I was too feminine and weak.

I'm sorry for the rant. Chidhood is not a discussion for a late night (early morning?), drunken post break up stupor lool. So sorry everybody rant over. Everybodys different! Let's all just get along and accept ecerybodys experience without comparing, thanks

I hear what you are saying, but stand by my suggestion. Perhaps come back when you have the time and a clear head. I can't help but think you might benefit for the read. I know I've benefited from the discussion.

And its not like I even looked a boy from 0-13. I just looked like a little girl and sounded and acted like a little girl and ohh yeah...WAS a girl inside. Long hair, gender neutral clothes. I could post pics haha. So now we're talking 13-17..where was I? Ohh, yeah, in my room contemplating suicide. Geee, my male privilege is showing, better check myself, here. My life is set now. A ->-bleeped-<- with no diploma, no money, no job about to resort to escorting. Thank god I had penis growing up, right dude? Like legit haha

And you know what this whole privilege debate is just stupid. It makes everybody insecure and start talking crap about other peoples experiences so they feel less privileged. I'm privilged in my ways but NOT for growing up with a penis, sorry. I'm just being real

Quote from: FA on March 21, 2014, 03:10:03 AM
Thanks hon. I wish I could. But I just feel weird talking about it in the first place. I mean, really, this isn't something a guy ever talks about lol

I'm currently struggling with this too. I really need to talk about what's going on with me before I tear myself apart (figuratively), but guys don't talk about that kind of stuff.

Quote from: Sarah7 on March 21, 2014, 04:02:13 AM
Also, you really don't need to say "other people growing up as women had it worse" every time. There isn't any competition. Your experiences are unique to you, and the way you feel about them are the way you feel about them. There isn't a wrong way to feel. You are 100% justified in feeling. And like I've said before: feeling things doesn't make you weak, it makes you, you. And nothing that hurts sounds trivial to me.

This. This is something I see in other places as well and it makes no sense.

Quote from: jussmoi4nao on March 21, 2014, 04:56:23 AM
I know what its like ti be trivialized, maginalized and ignored. I've never really known what its like to feel like I'm important or matter, and yeah I use sex a lot and ya know what the sick thing is? I know why I do. Its cuz that way guys SEE me. I don't mind being objectified to an extent because honestly its better than feeling like nothing.

Oh good I'm not alone.
As for the rest, can we not get into the oppression olympics? It's not a competition and making it so ends up with dismissiveness and hurt feelings all around for no good reason.

FA and Edge:

I'm sorry if this has been answered previously and I'm forgetting it, but could part of your reluctance to talk about this be a fear of making youselves vulnerable?

It would be easily understandable considering the response we've see so far on this thread.