I'm hardly new; been around here since late 2008. They dismissed such things as "so rare that it's less likely than being in a plane crash" or similar analogies. Plus, there's the point of the power they had over my life - access to HRT, etc. - and willingness to use it as part of persuading me.

I suppose it all depends what your definition of "regret" is? If you mean did I regret having surgeries, including Srs, then no.that was my choice to do. No one put a gun to my head and said do it. I wanted this operation, more than anyone else will ever know except maybe someone else who has also had it as well. In the end I am happy and contented living a woman's life.

If on the other hand by regret, do you mean, have I ever just sat and thought about what my life would be like today if I never had transitioned, then sure. I have thought that before. As I get older and with each new year of female living it fades a little more and the thoughts are dismissed more quickly.

My own ->-bleeped-<- was lifelong. It started as a child and only got worse as I grew order until I knew I had to do something about it. I had started going out when I was a teen. Until that point I was closeted. The more I was out the more out I wanted to be, I have nod idea of why I am the way I am, I just have no regrets over who I am now. I've embraced and now love the person I am now and still becoming, even after all these years.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 17, 2014, 04:33:35 PM
I think one of the necessary downsides of informed consent is going to be people who are unable or unwilling to BE informed; this is true with cis people and elective surgery, too, where someone doesn't bother to read all the information provided, signs on the dotted line anyway, and ends up surprised by an outcome that they *were* warned about. But I also think people are allowed to make whatever changes they want to their bodies, even if it's sometimes a mistake. In short, I suspect a lot of the regretters either ignored the fine print or expected something like Violet's "divine intervention," and discovered that changing the genitals won't fix anything unrelated they didn't like about their lives/situations/minds.

Frankly, I see the same thing about people going into transition - the ones who are damaged by life or unwilling to take responsibility for their lives will find that transition doesn't cure anything but trans-related problems, and come out the other end still depressed and looking for a scapegoat. (I sympathize with them, mind you. It's the luck of the draw that I didn't have those sorts of issues, and never had to deal with any transition-related traumas either.)

The problem isn't really informed consent or gatekeeping in this situation. Sure there are some downsides to be said about both, but the honest truth is you could have no gatekeeping at all, literally ANYONE could walk up to any SRS surgeon, cash in hand and get surgery no questions asked. Even if they weren't living in their target gender - and some would be happy with the surgery.

On the flip side of that, you could have insano gatekeeping, 10 years RLT and 10 days of sworn testimony about how the patient wants new genitals and some might still regret it.

The bottom line is sometimes people eff up. Sometimes people make decisions they regret - even if they made all the right moves ahead of time. Said regretters are viewed as non-existent or enemies of trans people. I don't want to deny anyone else's right to transition or get SRS. In fact, transition has been a double edged sword because while transition (socially and stuff like HRT and FFS) was the best move I ever made, SRS was my biggest blunder.

I regret it too. Just the surgery. And the big problem is most doctors were unwilling to help me or even touch me. They ignored me, they lectured me on how it was wrong to try to get a phalloplasty (presenting as a woman), or they said they could do nothing. So what do we do with a patient like me or Agent or anyone else for that matter? Thankfully I did find one reputable surgeon willing to do phalloplasty, but if life couldn't kick me hard enough it failed because of a blood clot. I get to try again in a month, maybe my luck will be better than last year...

Roxanne : I did try to be very clear that I think everyone has a right to make these decisions for themselves, even if they screw it up. As for treating people with regrets as enemies of the community, that's cruel and unfair. I keep hoping that if we could, as a community, accept that sometimes trans people will make mistakes just like cis people, we could move past this divisiveness in which people with regrets are driven into the closet/harassed/deleted from the discussion.

My point was actually that I believe in informed consent *even if* someone regrets it afterward, and that I hate to see post-op regrets trotted out (as they so often are) as a weapon against the idea of IC. That's not fair to either the people who do regret it or those who will be gatekept even harder as a result...

Again, to be clear, I'm also 100% on board with allowing someone like you to get a phalloplasty, no questions asked and no roadblocks. Not that it's my job to allow or deny, thank goodness, but I mean that I don't think the system should be set up so that most doctors can deny you, as they now did. Bad enough that you underwent one surgery you regretted; it's a thousand times worse to then force you to live without correcting that mistake. In fact, if it's not too presumptuous, allow me to say I admire you - you realized GRS was a mistake, and set out to correct it, without blaming everyone around you and claiming there should have been more gatekeeping and whatnot. I see absolutely no reason why that should make your story an unwelcome one, although I realize that it often *does* work out that way.

I'm glad you found a surgeon willing to try to reverse the choice for you, and I wish you luck with the second try. The first failure had to be heartbreaking.

The reason I advocate for Informed Consent is because feel strongly that a certain class of gatekeepers do deserve some blame for regret when it is due to them pushing archaic requirements such as that one is only a woman if they are femme and that SRS is a requirement, enforced by withholding long-term access to HRT, and being opposed to legal changes that make the lives of those who have not had SRS easier, such as being able to update the gender marker on their driver's license (for the time when I was in that stage of transition doing so in my state required SRS; there was an attempt to change it and gatekeepers were opposed. I was directly told by one that such a restriction is necessary to compel people to "complete" transition.)

While we can argue that both systems will, unavoidable, have regret, a major problem in the gatekeeping system is that providers can, and do, undertake actions which have the effect of fomenting regret.

Yeah... I definitely think that's a problem, when we're basically telling people that what they know is right for them has to be wrong because this is what works for a majority of people. Unfortunately, that's kind of how our system has worked for a long time, and we're only now starting to embrace the diversity in all of its colors and realizing that the "best fit" doesn't work for everyone.

And I'm wondering if that is where a lot of the post-op regret comes from, is from people basically being told "hey, you're trans, so you've been on HRT and you've legally transitioned, when are you going to get SRS?" Where SRS becomes an expectation of transition that people feel pressure to live up to, rather than just being something that people seek of their own free will.

I'm always wondering this, because I'm really scared of regret, and yet SRS is something that I wanted before I even admitted to myself that I was trans, so I'm just wondering if anyone in that situation has had regrets, or if it's more the crowd who was on the fence about SRS but decided to get it anyway because of the "well, I'm trans, I guess I should get it even though I'm not sure about it" crowd.

Back on topic, will you regret SRS, FFS, etc.

It turns out the human brain is amazing at coping with decisions we make and act upon and pretty bad at coping with regret over the things we did not do.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy

You might also want to watch the following on choice and regret since we are doing Ted talks:

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice

The odds are your brain will work in the same way.

^To be fair, though, in that Dan Gilbert talk, there was a metaphor about students taking photographs who had to give one of them up. In it, half the students were given the option of changing their mind for up to 4 days before it was final, while the other half had to give one up immediately and had no option to change their mind. Those who had no choice, they were ultimately happy with their decision. But those who had the option to switch, who had the option to change their minds, they were never happy even after they'd made the decision.

And ultimately, I feel like FFS and SRS are much more like the scenario with choices. We schedule a surgery date, and then have months to decide whether we really are going to do it or not. We still have the option of backing out if we're having doubts. So to me, it seems like we'd have the same issues with always wondering "what if?" that the students who could switch had. If we're on the fence about whether to do it or not and can't decide, we'll always wonder "what if?"

If you ask me, that presentation does teach something important, though. Having watched a lot of videos from trans women talking about SRS, many of them have said that they'd had friends who were unsatisfied with it. (Not necessarily regretting, but just not as happy as they thought they'd be.) And Kat Blaque especially said that in most of the cases she'd seen, it was because they had unrealistic expectations going in. They expected that their life would somehow be magically happy and perfect if they had the surgery done. So this talk really helped me think about what a good reason to have SRS is. Basically, what I think I'm getting is that if one is happy with how they are now, but expects SRS to somehow magically make them happier, it probably won't. They'll probably end up at the same level of happiness as before and will be disappointed. But if being pre-op is an actual problem, something that impairs their life, something that is about removing an active source of discomfort rather than chasing after happiness, SRS does indeed seem to solve those feelings of pain, and is therefore probably a good decision.

I think my big takeaway was that happiness can be "synthesized" and that "synthetic" happiness is no less real than whatever people call real happiness.

I totally agree with your statements, if I had to sum up my thoughts:

• If you think SRS is your only option and you go in with minimal expectations, you are most likely going to be very happy with the results.
• If you go in expecting the surgery to change how the world treats you and magically make you happy ever after then most likely you are going to be very disappointed.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 19, 2014, 02:50:49 AM
^To be fair, though, in that Dan Gilbert talk, there was a metaphor about students taking photographs who had to give one of them up. In it, half the students were given the option of changing their mind for up to 4 days before it was final, while the other half had to give one up immediately and had no option to change their mind. Those who had no choice, they were ultimately happy with their decision. But those who had the option to switch, who had the option to change their minds, they were never happy even after they'd made the decision.

And ultimately, I feel like FFS and SRS are much more like the scenario with choices. We schedule a surgery date, and then have months to decide whether we really are going to do it or not. We still have the option of backing out if we're having doubts. So to me, it seems like we'd have the same issues with always wondering "what if?" that the students who could switch had. If we're on the fence about whether to do it or not and can't decide, we'll always wonder "what if?"

If you ask me, that presentation does teach something important, though. Having watched a lot of videos from trans women talking about SRS, many of them have said that they'd had friends who were unsatisfied with it. (Not necessarily regretting, but just not as happy as they thought they'd be.) And Kat Blaque especially said that in most of the cases she'd seen, it was because they had unrealistic expectations going in. They expected that their life would somehow be magically happy and perfect if they had the surgery done. So this talk really helped me think about what a good reason to have SRS is. Basically, what I think I'm getting is that if one is happy with how they are now, but expects SRS to somehow magically make them happier, it probably won't. They'll probably end up at the same level of happiness as before and will be disappointed. But if being pre-op is an actual problem, something that impairs their life, something that is about removing an active source of discomfort rather than chasing after happiness, SRS does indeed seem to solve those feelings of pain, and is therefore probably a good decision.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 17, 2014, 05:41:42 PMNot that anecdotes prove much, but it'd certainly have shown that your therapists + doctors were lying.

That's a worry of mine.  Despite taking all the usual precautions - therapy, slow start with hormones, taking it one step at a time - I'm a touch worried that those I'm trusting to guide me are influenced a little too much by their own need to financially sustain their practices, and will thus push their services in some cases when not needed or appropriate.  And especially in the transgender world where healthcare providers are scarce and many patients are desperate for help; a lot of easy 'marks'.

A worry, I might add, that is typically proven to be false!  Those I've had contact with in practices associated with transgender issues have been flawlessly caring, dedicated and reliable.  But I'm sure there are less reputable providers out there.  Easy solution - get a second (or third) opinion, which is my plan when I start to take irreversible surgical steps.

Quote from: antonia on April 19, 2014, 09:26:24 AMIf you go in expecting the surgery to change how the world treats you and magically make you happy ever after then most likely you are going to be very disappointed.

Wonderfully said.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 17, 2014, 09:28:53 PM
Roxanne : I did try to be very clear that I think everyone has a right to make these decisions for themselves, even if they screw it up. As for treating people with regrets as enemies of the community, that's cruel and unfair. I keep hoping that if we could, as a community, accept that sometimes trans people will make mistakes just like cis people, we could move past this divisiveness in which people with regrets are driven into the closet/harassed/deleted from the discussion.

My point was actually that I believe in informed consent *even if* someone regrets it afterward, and that I hate to see post-op regrets trotted out (as they so often are) as a weapon against the idea of IC. That's not fair to either the people who do regret it or those who will be gatekept even harder as a result...

Again, to be clear, I'm also 100% on board with allowing someone like you to get a phalloplasty, no questions asked and no roadblocks. Not that it's my job to allow or deny, thank goodness, but I mean that I don't think the system should be set up so that most doctors can deny you, as they now did. Bad enough that you underwent one surgery you regretted; it's a thousand times worse to then force you to live without correcting that mistake. In fact, if it's not too presumptuous, allow me to say I admire you - you realized GRS was a mistake, and set out to correct it, without blaming everyone around you and claiming there should have been more gatekeeping and whatnot. I see absolutely no reason why that should make your story an unwelcome one, although I realize that it often *does* work out that way.

I'm glad you found a surgeon willing to try to reverse the choice for you, and I wish you luck with the second try. The first failure had to be heartbreaking.

Thanks. And yeah I have no reason to blame my doctors or therapist or anyone else involved. It was my personal choice and yeah in retrospect it was a bad choice - and sure there was some degree of conformity pressure (and other things that I need not necessarily elaborate), but again at the end it was my choice. I just want doctors to try to help me fix it as best they can.

I also think it isn't fair at all because come on, I know what both sets of parts are like and I know which ones I prefer on *my* body. No matter whether one favors either gatekeeping or informed consent this should be a slam dunk mentally. But apparently it isn't.

And yeah of course it was / has been heartbreaking. As soon as I found a doctor willing to do it (after so many NOs) a huge weight was lifted off of me. My depression and PTSD nearly went away. Sure the waiting sucked, but I knew I would be fixed up. And being young and healthy I never thought it would be a complete failure (partial failure, complications, maybe. Total loss? F no). Now this time? My depression and PTSD immediately returned. And the thought of living without a penis for the rest of my life gnaws at me all the time. If it fails again I think a third and fourth and fifth etc (ie several more) attempts are possible, though that's with the caveat that he is willing to take from a different graft site than the first two times (and if he's not and refers me elsewhere, will they refuse me?). And moreover, if two attempts fail and he makes me wait another year I don't think I'll be able to mentally handle it and just kill myself.

i find the only reason i would have any regret in having my GRS, is that i am starting to really like the idea of having my own biological child and its still possible to stop my hrt and try to get a sperm sample before i have GRS, but its not a guarantee that i can get one since i might be permanently sterile and it would just be a big waste of my time and emotions of having to detransition,

other than that i have hit a point were i just dont feel right having sex with a partner because it feels like my genitals are covered in a cast of flesh and its not working correctly, just feels wrong when i touch it and that just gets me right off the idea, thus my sex life is ruined until i have my GRS

also the idea of not worrying about my bits falling out or having the stress of worrying about my genitals showing would be so nice, to just put on some tights and not have to push prod and pull everything to make myself presentable would just be amazing

A vivid memory I have is, starting just over one year ago now, having the doubts about SRS being right for me, but being driven forward because it was the only way to improve the treatment I was receiving. When my wife said she would support me if I canceled (granted, she said it would be a problem if we lost money, and we were already past the last refund deadline) I was left with the point, "if I cancel, I'm back to that hell with providers, and there is reason to believe that it would get worse." I think my regret has a lot to do with the fact that even SRS wasn't enough for them - they didn't have a new hoop for me to jump through to prove that I was "trans enough," they just rested on "we don't think transition is right for you." So I did something irreversable to gain something that wasn't going to happen anyhow.

In other words, I did something to permanently end a problem in my life because they held the promise of having that relief and then denied it anyhow.

Sex has been a non-issue for four years. Once I started Spiro my drive vanished and I was delighted (this was deemed a problem by my HRT doctors, however.) Now, I have a high sex drive but no ability to get off. I am unable to have an orgasm that satisfies the desire.

Quote from: Agent_J on April 21, 2014, 01:15:14 PM
A vivid memory I have is, starting just over one year ago now, having the doubts about SRS being right for me, but being driven forward because it was the only way to improve the treatment I was receiving. When my wife said she would support me if I canceled (granted, she said it would be a problem if we lost money, and we were already past the last refund deadline) I was left with the point, "if I cancel, I'm back to that hell with providers, and there is reason to believe that it would get worse." I think my regret has a lot to do with the fact that even SRS wasn't enough for them - they didn't have a new hoop for me to jump through to prove that I was "trans enough," they just rested on "we don't think transition is right for you." So I did something irreversable to gain something that wasn't going to happen anyhow.

In other words, I did something to permanently end a problem in my life because they held the promise of having that relief and then denied it anyhow.

Sex has been a non-issue for four years. Once I started Spiro my drive vanished and I was delighted (this was deemed a problem by my HRT doctors, however.) Now, I have a high sex drive but no ability to get off. I am unable to have an orgasm that satisfies the desire.

so are you saying that you can't get the full on orgasm because the surgery killed to many nerves that dulled your sensations in your genital area's? or is it a genital dysphoria problem?

were you orgasmic through "alternative" methods before you had srs? was it just a botched surgery?

i ask this because right now i can't get off because it is a dysphoria problem and not a sensation issue

never regret in everything i've done with my face, my body & my genital ... i am VERY happy as a woman from head to toes , very confident when i go to the beach wearing bikinis ..

Quote from: Madison (kiara jamie) on April 21, 2014, 08:26:52 PM
so are you saying that you can't get the full on orgasm because the surgery killed to many nerves that dulled your sensations in your genital area's? or is it a genital dysphoria problem?

were you orgasmic through "alternative" methods before you had srs? was it just a botched surgery?

i ask this because right now i can't get off because it is a dysphoria problem and not a sensation issue

I'm not sure what you mean by "alternative." I had no problem getting off when I wanted to before SRS. Spiro eliminated my libido but not my ability to attain orgasm.

I was totally numb for the first 8 months after SRS. I have regained feeling since then, but it's limited. I am able to experience stimulation arousal and attain some sort of orgasm (I get the hyper-sensitive clit and arousal vanishing abruptly) but there is no pleasurable aspect to it. It's like I suddenly go from working up to it and then into the post-orgasm phase.

Quote from: Agent_J on April 22, 2014, 07:36:54 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by "alternative." I had no problem getting off when I wanted to before SRS. Spiro eliminated my libido but not my ability to attain orgasm.

I was totally numb for the first 8 months after SRS. I have regained feeling since then, but it's limited. I am able to experience stimulation arousal and attain some sort of orgasm (I get the hyper-sensitive clit and arousal vanishing abruptly) but there is no pleasurable aspect to it. It's like I suddenly go from working up to it and then into the post-orgasm phase.

i have had those mini orgasms before and im pre op, i have always found it was just me not having my head in the right place, like i wasn't fully into it with my mind and body in sync, having a good orgasm requires you to be fully engaged with physically and psychologically, could your inability to have a pleasurable orgasm be a result of not being psychologically stimulated correctly or sufficiently?

I doubt it. I takes an incredible focus on all aspects of stimulation to get that much. If my mind isn't in it then I can't even get those meager results.

What really amazes me...are the stories about MTF regrets 5, 10 sometimes even 20 years post SRS....
I personally knew/know some MTF who regret having had SRS after years, decades even.

Denial all these years? An ID that seems to be  fluid or dynamic?

Only one MTFTM I personally know is completely honest about it; he says he regrets SRS because he actually found out he feels like a man.