Just a question for the nontransitioners/detransitioners out there who still identify as trans* (I guess most on this forum would, cause otherwise... why are you still here?), the nontransition/detransition world is a bit of an enigma for me, so forgive me if I say anything wrong or just don't 'get' it, lol. But I was wondering whether you guys (and gals) still present as your true, inner, mental (whatever term you prefer), gender, even though you might never get hormones or (consistently) pass.
And if you do, how is acceptance from other people? Do they understand it? And if you don't, and present as your birth sex, are you viewed as a cisgender person by others, or as a 'confused female', etc.? Do you have a partner who sees you as who you really are or not?

Anyway, I hope my questions weren't too stupid or... insulting even? It's just that I can imagine you guys are having a terribly hard time, cause the big part of the trans community doesn't understand it, and the majority of the cis community doesn't either. Basically you're stuck in between of two worlds, right? (that's how I would imagine it at least)

I'm not in transition myself RIGHT NOW, but I intend to as soon as it's possible. The whole reason I came out as trans was because I found out THAT it is possible to transition and live my life as ME. Before that I just thought there was no point fighting my biological sex, cause I thought it was all there was, I must be mad for thinking otherwise, and even I wasn't mad, and biological sex wasn't 'everything'... I couldn't change it anyway. "So why fight something you cannot change?" I thought at the time.

Not a stupid question at all. I look forward to the answers. 

I can honestly say if I had to stop transition because of some medical issue or whatever, I would still present as a female because that is who I am in my heart and soul. It would be harder of course without my internal chemistry being right and I would miss the changes to my body, but I would never go back to being "him" again.

Quote from: Erik Ezrin on March 14, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
Just a question for the nontransitioners/detransitioners out there who still identify as trans* (I guess most on this forum would, cause otherwise... why are you still here?), the nontransition/detransition world is a bit of an enigma for me, so forgive me if I say anything wrong or just don't 'get' it, lol.

I think why some other trans* people might have a problem "getting it" is simply because they either (1) haven't thought there's options beyond transition or not transition and/or (2) could not personally live (at all or comfortably) without transitioning themselves. It's one of those "everyone's different" kind of things. From my perspective the options of transition or not transition are as limited as the options of male and female. This is not to say I don't personally identify as male, but I also came to terms awhile ago that I would never have the male body that my brain thinks I should have. So for me, it became a matter of, "why bother?" Why put my brain and body through everything that is physical/medical transition while I fundamentally reject the idea that I can't be myself just as I am? Screw what society thinks because I'm not changing just to fit that box. I tried hrt (definitely didn't help me), and I've made physical changes just through exercise (no, they're not as pronounced as hrt, but that's fine for me). I do my hair the way I want and I dress the way I want and people can gender me however they want but it doesn't change who I am and I'm certainly over putting on any kind of act for other people. Sure I get some odd looks sometimes (like when I make a comment/question such as, "Why do women do ____?" to people who don't know the real me ... they look at me like, why would you say something like that if you're a woman?). I'm over feeling like I shouldn't make people uncomfortable with how I express myself. Could I have said the same thing when I was 20? Hell no. This has taken years to be able to express myself and really let all my guards down about being myself. 

Quote from: Erik Ezrin on March 14, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
The whole reason I came out as trans was because I found out THAT it is possible to transition and live my life as ME. Before that I just thought there was no point fighting my biological sex, cause I thought it was all there was, I must be mad for thinking otherwise, and even I wasn't mad, and biological sex wasn't 'everything'... I couldn't change it anyway. "So why fight something you cannot change?" I thought at the time.

If I would have seen what would have appeared an "easy" option (transition) when I was in my teens or 20's I probably would have went for it and my life would have been very different and I'm not sure if it would have been different for the better. It's impossible to tell of course, but I'm actually glad I didn't go there. I know now, that I would not have been happy with what is basically a female body that's just been "modified" (not trying to offend anyone here, that's just my personal thoughts). I don't care about having muscles and facial hair, what I want is a functioning penis and that's one thing that I wouldn't have been satisfied with. I don't like surgery to begin with, let alone FTM bottom surgery. I already have what would be considered "large" in the way of equipment for a FAAB (comparable to what some FTM guys get after a year or so on T) so to me, it's just not in the realm of possibilities and I would be no happier with the rest of my body changed than I am right now. It's something I deal with on an on-going basis but there's nothing I can really do about it but just accept it as it is. So my question to myself was once again, why put myself through all that is physical and social transition when I'd probably just be messing up my health and my life? I may one day get the moobs lobbed off if I can get past the surgery thing only because I hate the things and I don't have some desire to have a "perfect male chest", but as of right now there's no plans for that either.

So to actually answer the question of what gender do you present as, my best response would be, "I don't" lol. I'm just me and I'm kinda over making changes to my appearance specifically to try to be gendered one way or the other. If I choose to do something, wear something, etc. that I like and it so happens to be more male and I get some random people addressing me as male, cool, if not, whatever.

I present as an androgynous male for the most part and am not particularly given over to the idea of having to be either one or the other specifically as I'm not as concerned with the thoughts and opinions of other people with regards to myself as many of you are here. I guess you could say that I am comfortable in my own skin.

Quote from: Erik Ezrin on March 14, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
Anyway, I hope my questions weren't too stupid or... insulting even? It's just that I can imagine you guys are having a terribly hard time, cause the big part of the trans community doesn't understand it, and the majority of the cis community doesn't either. Basically you're stuck in between of two worlds, right? (that's how I would imagine it at least)

Stuck isn't the word or description I would use. I can travel and I do, between two worlds with relative ease. I do on my own terms.
While most of the world see's themselves as one gender or another, I (just rounding this off here) have two.
Living on a world where most people have only one gender, it isn't so hard to imagine that, but I don't understand how that would be better.
Having two sides to the gender coin allows for far more versatility in thinking as well as lifestyles.
While either one may never quite reach that end stage of purity in binary gender, they can come pretty close as far as I know.
The biggest problem is that to many people don't understand or refuse to. It really isn't that complicated.
It's not the same as being in the middle of a transition, it is just simply having more than one way to see things, to think of things.

There isn't a sense of having to reach an endpoint or even of having come from one. I am already where I am going to be. Always have.
Unless you are completely clueless as to how the other gender feels, and I doubt very much if there is such a person,
it shouldn't be that far of a stretch to imagine them both as a feeling of self.
You actually do see this all the time, you just don't recognize it as such.
That feminine guy? That masculine woman? It's not that much further away, really.

Just how I perceive it. If I weren't me I wouldn't trust that. But I am me, so I do. 
We all have far more in common than we have as differences. Another trick, trust me issue, there.
But I think that's very true. The differences are more like splitting hairs when you step back and just look at gender overall.
Define the differences, and then define the similarities.
It's harder to find the differences when you attempt to define gender overall. What is gender?
It's a tough question because people insist there are distinct differences when there really aren't.
Most of it is stock answers that have been distorted as they are handed down through modern history.
Another way of saying that most of them are pure BS.

At times, a question or event invokes a sense of duality in my thoughts for that moment, which lets me pick or combine for a best case answer.
It isn't much good or use to having two genders and not use them to advantage. I can't imagine one without the other for myself.
I am by no means stuck anywhere, that's a perception that isn't a reality in my world. Which is non-binary.
Ativan

I identify as male (an androgynous male, to be exact) so I present and live as one. I never pass but when I'm among friend groups I'm very vocal about my identity and they're accepting and use the right pronouns and gendered terms. If they weren't accepting they wouldn't be my friends because I have very bad social dysphoria and it spirals into severe levels really quickly if I don't have an outlet. Living as female isn't an option for me. But when I do have that outlet I feel very calm and centered and am able to take the daily misgendering that I get from people who are unaware or in environments it's not safe to be out in.

I feel like I might be able to pass at least sometimes if I dress really baggy and butch, but unfortunately I can't live comfortably unless I'm expressing myself androgynously. It doesn't feel like me and I don't feel comfortable changing myself to mold to others' perceptions. So I have to rely on speaking up about my identity instead. And my sexuality since I like men and otherwise people would assume I don't.

Hi,

Not a silly ?  though  for me its a laugh its like asking a fish where do you live,
For me its both all the time yes i wear my female clothes  and i can wear my work bib overalls and boots it really does not bother me. i present as who i am an  intersexed female with masculine facial features, never transtioned or could  ether way .over the years iv had a good few surgerys and on meds,

Your body is different to start with, so for all intents and purpose im legaly female live as a female / woman yet thats only part of who i am,

As for acceptance im well accepted and every one who know about my background its not an issue to them,   im noeleena and gets stuck in doing lots of things males do with in reason, so im a  female with a good background in male knowlage, in respect to work detail and it comes in handy,

...noeleena...

I present as male, in-fact, no one has ever seen me as anything else and that's tough to deal with.  When I get all dressed up - the whole works - I feel that I look like a woman, alibi a tall, well build wonder woman type woman with big knobby hands... but a woman. 

I'm in a position where I can't really imagine presenting in public because of where I am right now.  Sometimes I have doubts as to whether or not I could pass and present as a woman ever.  I feel that I'd need to get deep into transitioning before I could even think of it.  No way I'm realistically covering up my beard with make-up (I'd need electrolysis) - also need a few things tweaked on my face with while hoping for the skin texture change and lightening - tracheal shave - could use a nice wig, but I'd rather have a ht to feminize my head hair - top surgery and some sort of filler, maybe fat injections from male deposit areas into the butt, hips and thigh - softening of muscle appearance - and a new wardrobe.  I feel I could maybe pass and present as female with confidence after all is said and done, but I have no idea...

Quote from: Erik Ezrin on March 14, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
It's just that I can imagine you guys are having a terribly hard time, cause the big part of the trans community doesn't understand it, and the majority of the cis community doesn't either. Basically you're stuck in between of two worlds, right? (that's how I would imagine it at least)

A few months ago, I was having a terrible time with dysphoria, so relatively speaking, I am having a much better time living between two genders. Eight straight months of intense dysphoria was hitting me so hard that I was forcing the female persona to manage day by day. Advice from my therapist allowed me to better manage. I am now on low dose HRT which has done wonders. I feel much more stable, and at times, I switch between male and female personas. I even joked with my wife that I feel more male after being on HRT than before when I was forcing my female identity to manage.

After being socialized as a male for decades, I am at a loss as how to be fully immersed as a female. I currently present as male because of family reasons. I do live as a female part time as my wife and I go out shopping, out for lunches, LGBT bars, at home, etc. However, there is a big difference between superficial socialization as a female versus developing long-term relationships as a female which I felt I was missing. Bottom line is that I stopped worrying about not being female and currently accept life between of two worlds. I am a better father, husband, and employee because of it. I may transition in the future or I may not. For now, I am simply enjoying life without dysphoria. 

it depends lol I see myself as male and I am transitioning toward that, but I am not yet on hormones or anything, so although I act and wear guy clothes and my hairs cut short, my family even though I told them I'm trans, still consider me a cis female and regard me as such, I think once the changes from hormones hit, they will finally get the picture, my friends and my girlfriend treat me like a guy though, which means more to me than anything, long as I have one person that treats me like me, it goes a long way

However as I'm in college, I have to go by my legal name and when I interview for jobs I have to try and be a little more feminine since I do not pass, its kind of like Ryan is around when i'm home and with friends, but then my "fake girl me" has to come out for interviews and attendance for class, can't wait for all that to change though

I present as an increasingly androgynous male so in this sense I am trending towards Shantel, but hope that over time I can be more gender fluid and move unconsciously across the gender spectrum to allow truly authentic expression.  In that sense I  see myself as desiring to move towards the space that Ativan and Kate Bornstein describe and inhabit.

Aisla

Also I am less concerned with the theatre of presentation and clothing.  While I am happy to embed gender clues in grooming etc I am really looking for broader and more flexible gender in expression and behavior.

Interestingly my therapist has challenged me on this.  She says that I should seek a more androgynous style and clothing.   While open to this I am not sure this is is necessary or that easy to achieve particularly during the work day where I operate in a very conservative/almost uniformed environment.  Thoughts welcome?

Aisla

Aisla it would depend for me on whether your going to get a bunch of crap about it at work.   We would all like to be bulletproof, but I am not.

I present male socially, I am androgyne around my immediate family, and I am totally female when alone or is safe conditions.  I flip comfortably and easily between any one of these presentations, although physically I remain transitioned to female from male, physically I am wired as my brain perceives to be female.

Its all about comfort levels.

And nobody whatsoever has given me anything but love and kindness in these threads, which is helping me have the courage to be me and get honest in here.

I am learning to accept and be comfortable in this new body. 

Presentation can be a tricky thing to get your desired look.
There are different styles and then break that down into individual pieces of clothing, whatever.
Those are an overwhelming number of things to choose from.
When you're required to follow certain dress codes or need to stay withing the confines of a certain look,
use those same styles or individual pieces that are acceptable.
But look at how they are cut.
How any particular piece of clothing is going to end up looking on you is going to be in the fit/size.
Finding a fit/size that works well for your body is important. The fit is important.
But the finishing touch is the cut. A little tighter here , a little looser there, it makes a big difference.
I've used suits as an example before. In mens, you can find them with a more feminine cut.
If you want a more male look, just get the straight sided ones.
Fine tuning things like eyebrows fingernails, etc can be a good way to stay within what's acceptable.
You can easily get your eyebrows shaped that are androgynous looking and they have that extra feel of just good grooming.
Same with finger nails. Even a watch can make a difference.

Point is, you can make big changes that are very noticeable, and you can make small changes that are acceptable.
Finely tuning your look can be inexpensive and make you feel comfortable, even if it isn't the all out look of what you want.
It's in the details that you can find a look and still stay within the limits called for or the one you set your self.
When I clothes shop, I look for the cut that is going to work for me, and then consider the style.
Hah! I wear camo cargo pants and boots that make me look male,
or I can wear the same thing with a different cut and they become much more feminine.
Along with masculine style boots that have 2 1/2 to 3 inch heels and I'm there.
Same thing, but the differences are slight. Totally changes how I look and feel.
dissipating,
Ativan

Ativan

I really appreciate your advice and will certainly work with this

Satinjoy

I know where you are coming from

Many thanks

Aisla

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 14, 2014, 12:45:45 PM
I can honestly say if I had to stop transition because of some medical issue or whatever, I would still present as a female because that is who I am in my heart and soul. It would be harder of course without my internal chemistry being right and I would miss the changes to my body, but I would never go back to being "him" again.

I agree 100% with Jessica, but she did miss in her 'mind' a well. I am really so much happier being a woman than my former self.

I'm a female behind closed doors, outside, I'm a dude. I just don't have the courage to venture outside......

Quote from: Khaleesie Fiona on June 27, 2014, 11:29:54 AM
I'm a female behind closed doors, outside, I'm a dude. I just don't have the courage to venture outside......

You might want to read through some of the threads in the Non-binary forum, my own hangout being a Transdrogynous type.

Quote from: Khaleesie Fiona on June 27, 2014, 11:29:54 AM
I'm a female behind closed doors, outside, I'm a dude. I just don't have the courage to venture outside......

I am so like this too. While I won't step outside with what I'm wearing now, I will step outside wearing a very similar, slightly toned down style that I got in the Men's department. There's quite a lot of androgynous clothing in the Men's department of any major department store these days, if you look. I haven't really gotten to breaking that boundary yet either, though the androgynous side of clothes in the Junior's department seems the logical next step, not full on floral print dresses or something else totally feminine.