I notice that when i present as a boy (this was my experience in another forum too where I started and made friends only as a boy) I am much less inclined to be selfish or mean to people. Idk why but when I present as a girl, i feel a lot more snippy and sort of mean at times but as a boy i'm really kind of a doormat. Idk why this changes with presentation...

Well, not even a doormat, but I can get kind of jesusy? I let everything slide and have trouble judging people, and no real drive to assert myself.

I mean i think maybe as a girl I feel fake so I'm kind of always feeling defensive, always needing to protect my validity so I am more critical of people and myself and like more standoffish because of that.

And maybe my natural personality is just this way, it doesn't feel fake or anying necessarily, but I also think I more blatantly don't value myself.

I don't know who to ask about this but, does anyone get the same thing? i thought it was kind of weird because i immediately caught myself feeling a little different when i decided to be a boy. But I think it's really kind of the opposite change of what's expected from me, right?

What do yall think?? (:

sad panda

I think that this speaks to you as a person and to where you are most comfortable rather than to being a boy.   As you were describing your experience as a boy I kept thing that you could be talking about being female, minus the self and other criticism around weight and appearance.   I remember the schoolyard and what happened to non athletic, small and unpopular boys. .. it was not very pleasant for them or to witness.

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on April 24, 2014, 07:50:39 PM
sad panda

I don think that this speaks you and yo where you are most comfortable.  As you were describing your experience as a boy I kept thing that you could be talking about being female, minus the self and other criticism around weight and appearance.   I remember the schoolyard and what happened to non athletic, small and unpopular boys. .. it was not very pleasant for them or to be around.

Aisla

Well, thanks for your opinion, but.... personally I have never been treated poorly for being nice as a boy. Maybe been used by some people who didn't understand how much I was doing for them, but nobody was ever mean to me for it or aggressive. So, humm... Not sure.... Different areas or cultures maybe?

It's not been my experience but if it is yours then it is real.

You say that is how you feel you respond on forums, is the same true in real life or do you feel you cannot present as male in RL? (Sorry if I have it mixed up but as I understand you were male assigned at birth, have transitioned m2f and now see yourself as identifying as male? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you currently living as male/female/both/neither?)

Quote from: sad panda on April 24, 2014, 07:54:17 PM
Well, thanks for your opinion, but.... personally I have never been treated poorly for being nice as a boy. Maybe been used by some people who didn't understand how much I was doing for them, but nobody was ever mean to me for it or aggressive. So, humm... Not sure.... Different areas or cultures maybe?

just different lives, different experiences and different takeaways.  Mine covered multiple schools, different countries, and coeducational to all male to military college so I have seen and felt quite a bit, from bullying, through racial vilification to institutionalised bastardisation.

Aisla

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 24, 2014, 07:58:52 PM
It's not been my experience but if it is yours then it is real.

You say that is how you feel you respond on forums, is the same true in real life or do you feel you cannot present as male in RL? (Sorry if I have it mixed up but as I understand you were male assigned at birth, have transitioned m2f and now see yourself as identifying as male? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you currently living as male/female/both/neither?)

Yep I am also going by how I was pre transition, lordy I was a saint. I don't know if I said a single mean thing about anyone to anyone since about 10 yrs before i transitioned, I mean I was so polite I had never even cursed around someone else. Not sure why, it's not like i'm religious or anything. But i got sort of bitchy sometimes as a girl.

I can't really present as a boy yet irl though... well the way I think of it, that is always how i'm presenting, but... can't help if I don't pass you know?

Quote from: Aisla on April 24, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
just different lives, different experiences and different takeaways.  Mine covered multiple schools, different countries, and coeducational to all male to military college so I have seen and felt quite a bit, from bullying, through racial vilification to institutionalised bastardisation.

Aisla

Weird... I guess I have been lucky (:

Perhaps it's the ability to feel authentic that makes you feel more comfortable? When you are more comfortable and less agitated, it's easier to be nicer and polite to others.  I know I'm uncomfortable having to adopt a roll that doesn't suit me and that people that know my gender situation typically are easier for me to interact with.  Less social dysphoria I guess.  Therefore, I can kind of understand where you are coming from to a degree.  Still I tend to act the same way with people regardless of my gender.  My attitudes, my behavior and demeanor are all very similar.  I just feel more free and less fake when it's out in the open.  That small difference, however, can really make a world of difference in my own comfort level and ability to interact with someone.  Probably why I love this site so much.  One of the few places I can be fully open and not fake. 

My concern after reading your posts is that you're only passive because you feel you're not worth anything. If that's not the case, I'm glad, but it's still worrisome.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 24, 2014, 08:45:44 PM
Perhaps it's the ability to feel authentic that makes you feel more comfortable? When you are more comfortable and less agitated, it's easier to be nicer and polite to others.  I know I'm uncomfortable having to adopt a roll that doesn't suit me and that people that know my gender situation typically are easier for me to interact with.  Less social dysphoria I guess.  Therefore, I can kind of understand where you are coming from to a degree.  Still I tend to act the same way with people regardless of my gender.  My attitudes, my behavior and demeanor are all very similar.  I just feel more free and less fake when it's out in the open.  That small difference, however, can really make a world of difference in my own comfort level and ability to interact with someone.  Probably why I love this site so much.  One of the few places I can be fully open and not fake.

Hmmmm.... that makes a lot of sense. I would see why it would be like that.

I guess I am not really sure what fake feels like, as opposed to not feeling fake... maybe i always feel a little fake. Just sometimes it's toned down, like i think it is as a boy. Not sure why I just do not have as much of an ego as a boy.

Question! Do you mean a conscious awareness of fake behaviors you are having to put on? Or maybe like a deeper feeling of wrongness?

Quote from: Declan. on April 24, 2014, 09:04:55 PM
My concern after reading your posts is that you're only passive because you feel you're not worth anything. If that's not the case, I'm glad, but it's still worrisome.

Thanks Declan.... no, you are right. That's how I feel. I'm not really proud of that but I don't know if it's boy-specific either. :c

It still seems to me like you're letting cultural standards of femininity get to you, Panda. I find it odd that you feel compelled to act differently depending on which gender you are presenting as. That to me says that there might be something not quite complete here.

And I'm only saying this because I found myself behaving in the same way. Because as a guy, I didn't give two cares about living up to anyone's cultural standards of masculinity. So I lived a very comfortable and relaxed life in spite of my constant gender dysphoria making me feel like crap. Where since transition, I have indeed caught myself many times being bitter about not being "female enough," and carrying lingering resentment for those who lived up to the cultural standard of femininity better. But that's just a side-effect of wanting to be seen as a girl by others, not necessarily something that invalidates my gender identity.

If you're happy, then I'm happy for you. And I have no right to question someone's decisions if that's what makes them happy. I'm just afraid that there might still be some unresolved issues here, and that you're doubting yourself for reasons that aren't personal, they're just based on worrying too much about the perceptions of others.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 24, 2014, 10:14:39 PM
It still seems to me like you're letting cultural standards of femininity get to you, Panda. I find it odd that you feel compelled to act differently depending on which gender you are presenting as. That to me says that there might be something not quite complete here.

And I'm only saying this because I found myself behaving in the same way. Because as a guy, I didn't give two cares about living up to anyone's cultural standards of masculinity. So I lived a very comfortable and relaxed life in spite of my constant gender dysphoria making me feel like crap. Where since transition, I have indeed caught myself many times being bitter about not being "female enough," and carrying lingering resentment for those who lived up to the cultural standard of femininity better.

If you're happy, then I'm happy for you. And I have no right to question someone's decisions if that's what makes them happy. I'm just afraid that there might still be some unresolved issues here, and that you're doubting yourself for reasons that aren't personal, they're just based on worrying too much about the perceptions of others.

But, mostly... i don't have gender dysphoria D:

The problem was I transitioned to fit in with cultural standards in the first place. I don't feel unfeminine as a woman, just invalid and somehow wrong. That's why detransitioning feels like a major point of growth for me!

Really, thanks, it's so sweet that you care about me so much to think i am making the wrong choice. But I'm not totally sure why people would think I'm making the wrong choice when i'm making like the same choice that drove them to transition in the first place. I don't care about being a girl. i don't feel like I am actually a girl. I just want to be me. I realized a while ago that i can and should be able to do that without changing labels.

Sounds to me like at this point in your life you are allowing yourself to be very fluid with your gender... Where it doesn't really matter that much.

Honestly that was one of my favorite parts about early transition.. Being kind of in a state of "whatever goes goes". It allows you to meld either part of any gender role into the present tense... It's liberating and exciting to have that freedom of expression!

I think I parallel you on the becoming a little bit more catty or something after transitioning MtF- although I do still feel like the same person. Perhaps it is due in part to getting to know yourself better over time and having stronger opinions? If I think about what it would be like to detransition, I doubt it would change a thing about me... I am who I have become and there is not much I can do about it except for go with the flow

I have a hunch that allowing gender to be fluid does wonders for opening the mind. You have no bounds or limits set by others or their expectations.. just living in the moment

Quote from: sad panda on April 24, 2014, 10:37:23 PM
But, mostly... i don't have gender dysphoria D:

The problem was I transitioned to fit in with cultural standards in the first place. I don't feel unfeminine as a woman, just invalid and somehow wrong. That's why detransitioning feels like a major point of growth for me!

Really, thanks, it's so sweet that you care about me so much to think i am making the wrong choice. But I'm not totally sure why people would think I'm making the wrong choice when i'm making like the same choice that drove them to transition in the first place. I don't care about being a girl. i don't feel like I am actually a girl. I just want to be me. I realized a while ago that i can and should be able to do that without changing labels.

Okay. Then I'm not as worried. I was just afraid that you were basically ignoring dysphoria for the sake of not living up to some standard. That seems to cause a LOT of people to abandon transition only to regret it years later. But if you really didn't have dysphoria in the first place, and you're being an authentic self, I'm behind you 100%!

Quote from: sad panda on April 24, 2014, 09:17:24 PM
Hmmmm.... that makes a lot of sense. I would see why it would be like that.

I guess I am not really sure what fake feels like, as opposed to not feeling fake... maybe i always feel a little fake. Just sometimes it's toned down, like i think it is as a boy. Not sure why I just do not have as much of an ego as a boy.

Question! Do you mean a conscious awareness of fake behaviors you are having to put on? Or maybe like a deeper feeling of wrongness?

Thanks Declan.... no, you are right. That's how I feel. I'm not really proud of that but I don't know if it's boy-specific either. :c

For me, I have a a deep feeling of wrongness having to be male.  I don't pretend to be anything I'm not.  My mannerisms more feminine as are my speech patterns.  I stand out in a big way.  However, because of my physical presence is male, I just feel more uncomfortable to be myself and always feel awkward.  Like less free and open and more stiffled and controlled.  Like I feel an anxiety that isn't present when I'm around people that are aware of my gender as opposed to those who don't. I just want to feel more free all the time and get rid of the wrongness that ruins everything in my life.

It sounds like you are on the opposite side of the spectrum.  If you can get rid of that deep inner feeling of wrongness, then it's sounds like you have reached a good point.

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 24, 2014, 10:56:19 PM
Sounds to me like at this point in your life you are allowing yourself to be very fluid with your gender... Where it doesn't really matter that much.

Honestly that was one of my favorite parts about early transition.. Being kind of in a state of "whatever goes goes". It allows you to meld either part of any gender role into the present tense... It's liberating and exciting to have that freedom of expression!

I think I parallel you on the becoming a little bit more catty or something after transitioning MtF- although I do still feel like the same person. Perhaps it is due in part to getting to know yourself better over time and having stronger opinions? If I think about what it would be like to detransition, I doubt it would change a thing about me... I am who I have become and there is not much I can do about it except for go with the flow

I have a hunch that allowing gender to be fluid does wonders for opening the mind. You have no bounds or limits set by others or their expectations.. just living in the moment

Yep... it's like, when I'm like this, I stop feeling like I need to be anything for me, maybe other people will have expectations and stuff, but at least I can be happy with me, without controlling it, or questioning every little thing I do, it's like if I put a new label on the package then I get all anxious asking myself if it's the right one.

It was soooo crazy how much I struggled with that as a girl... not from anyone else, but from me. How much I felt the need to present rather than be, and then I lost the sense of why i was presenting anyway.

As a girl everything i do is wrong cuz maybe I'm doing it just to prove to myself I'm a girl. As a boy there's nothing to prove, whatever I do is just who I want to be. c: it's so freeing. Even super early in my transition I'd see a femme boy and just think, wow, that's what i'm really supposed to be. I don't really feel that with girls for whatever reason. I feel like I'm different no matter how much we have in common.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 25, 2014, 06:12:34 AM
For me, I have a a deep feeling of wrongness having to be male.  I don't pretend to be anything I'm not.  My mannerisms more feminine as are my speech patterns.  I stand out in a big way.  However, because of my physical presence is male, I just feel more uncomfortable to be myself and always feel awkward.  Like less free and open and more stiffled and controlled.  Like I feel an anxiety that isn't present when I'm around people that are aware of my gender as opposed to those who don't. I just want to feel more free all the time and get rid of the wrongness that ruins everything in my life.

It sounds like you are on the opposite side of the spectrum.  If you can get rid of that deep inner feeling of wrongness, then it's sounds like you have reached a good point.

Yeah, if trans people usually feel this way before they transition, I can totally see why it would be such a strong need to transition... D:

*biiiig hugs to all my trans peeps*

I think it's your comfort level and not your gender. I've heard trans women say they are nicer as women. I'm guessing because they feel comfort within themselves. OTOH, I think it may not be atypical for some people to have a hard puberty starting hormones and having physical and mental changes like that. So they may have some period of being less nice. I think that would go away. (I wondered about this with "Becoming Chaz" documentary. He is not a nice guy for awhile and is kind of nasty and sexist. I wasn't sure if that was just him or him going thru male puberty.)

--Jay

I am. My mom has even noticed it. It's really weird. Cause after T and transition, I changed. In the opposite direction one would think. I became a lot more concerned with people's feelings, less selfish. Somebody really concerned with nurturing friendships and such. The girl me - well, the guy me can't imagine treating people the way I did back then.

Thanks! Nice to hear from some of the guys too! c:

@aleon515

I think you are right. Comfort level plays a big part. I'm looking back on my transition and why I did it and I can just make so much sense of why I was uncomfortable. It is so hard to be yourself with so many layers of denial and fear, and that is probably not what other trans people internalize after they transition, but for me, it became utterly smothering. So it was caused by my gender presentation, but what I was really struggling with was this impossible, uncomfortable state of mind, and come to think of it.... how could I be nice to anyone else when I was sitting there abusing myself in my head all the time?? It just wasn't working.

Thanks for your thoughts. (:

@FA

Hah. Yeah. That is exactly how I feel and I don't 100% get it, but I think comfort level like aleon said is a big deal... That and just feeling like it's okay to exist as myself, rather than having this like... ego shield that I do everything through. I guess I don't have much real empathy when I'm doing stuff by proxy... it's kind of sad to think I was like that. ;o;

Quote from: sad panda on April 24, 2014, 07:46:38 PM
I notice that when i present as a boy (this was my experience in another forum too where I started and made friends only as a boy) I am much less inclined to be selfish or mean to people. Idk why but when I present as a girl, i feel a lot more snippy and sort of mean at times but as a boy i'm really kind of a doormat. Idk why this changes with presentation...

Well, not even a doormat, but I can get kind of jesusy? I let everything slide and have trouble judging people, and no real drive to assert myself.

I mean i think maybe as a girl I feel fake so I'm kind of always feeling defensive, always needing to protect my validity so I am more critical of people and myself and like more standoffish because of that.

And maybe my natural personality is just this way, it doesn't feel fake or anying necessarily, but I also think I more blatantly don't value myself.

I don't know who to ask about this but, does anyone get the same thing? i thought it was kind of weird because i immediately caught myself feeling a little different when i decided to be a boy. But I think it's really kind of the opposite change of what's expected from me, right?

What do yall think?? (:

When I read this it really stuck out at me because i can relate and not relate to it so so so much at the same time, if ya know what I mean. And what I mean is that if you wrote this and made it the exact opposite, it would be me. As a boy, I felt like I constantly had to be on guard and defending myself. I was very shy and quiet as a boy. I'm still shy but nowhere near as much and it was more of a defense mechanism because if I become too excited or enthusiastic, all my feminity would just gush out, which I tired to hide behind a kind of nothingness. That's how I felt like a nothing. I was very stoic and I could be very very mean. I'd say mean stuff about people and just was an ->-bleeped-<-. How I had friends I don't know.

But now as a girl, I can't even remember the last time I said something mean about someone without it being really, really deserved. Sometimes on this forum I can be bitchy but its a forum, not real life but I try not to do that too. My BF says I'm just too nice to some people and should watch myself. He's very protective.

Anyhoo, I just wanted to say I can totally see what you mean just from a kind of opposite perspective. Where being a boy was this kind of quiet, passive agressive fakness. Whereas being a girl, I feel nicer and happier and just alive and like myself and sweet, which is who I am so I like it. My BF's soon-to-be former roommate, always complains to him that Mattie is too demure, nice and just does whatever you say (meaning him) and she can't stand it and it reallly pissed him off one day and they got in huge fight. And he told me this and I just didn't understand because it's not some act or weird sub-dom thing it's just who I am (or who we are) and I like it. In fact I love it. He "f+cking love its" lol It's who I am and I make no apologies. And I wont and cant change from this cause I'm too happy and positive, something that is almost like a foreign emotion to me at 31.

But that was more than i meant to say but I feel ya. And good luck and congrats on your decision and all, tough guy. (I think man and dude can be pretty gender neutral with peeps these days. Tough guy, not so much.)

Heya Joanna, y'know it's interesting how so many of the ladies here feel the reverse. I think it must be a comfort level thing after all. I also was not really exposed much to gender roles until I transitioned and I felt a new pressure from that, so shedding it is like, yeah, I can be me again. I had so much of an ego as a girl, so many landmines, and like a really fragile threshold of coping, and that made me lash out at people. As a boy it's just like, whatever, I don't mind, lol. I somehow always feel at least a *little* ok and that makes me a lot gentler.

But, yeah if you are demure and submissive and whatever, there's nothing wrong with that. How you feel best is what's important.