I posted this piece on my blog yesterday about being mistaken for cis, particularly an incident with Janet Mock. I've gotten a lot of interesting reactions so I figured I'd see what you all thought:

http://www.aselfmadewoman.com/blog/2014/4/20/on-being-cissed-or-the-night-that-janet-mock-mistook-me-for-cis

I'll confess to a profound irritation at people who don't like us to use the word "pass" but won't let us use any other word either. I.e. Ms. Mock would like us not to talk about passing at all. When someone takes away my language so I can't talk about something, I see that as aggressive.

So her aggressive response to you doesn't surprise me.

And she didn't even answer your question...

Nicely written.  I bookmarked your blog .

I'm sure you get this in retrospect, but your question would have had a totally different context coming from somebody with cis-priviledge, and given the first question she got, and that she mistook you for being cis too, I'm sure she just snapped.  I am sure that stung though.  i'm sorry it happened to you .

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 01, 2014, 08:29:19 PM
I'll confess to a profound irritation at people who don't like us to use the word "pass" but won't let us use any other word either. I.e. Ms. Mock would like us not to talk about passing at all. When someone takes away my language so I can't talk about something, I see that as aggressive.

So her aggressive response to you doesn't surprise me.

And she didn't even answer your question...

I dislike the term "passing" too, for what it's worth, which is nothing.

I dislike passing too. I want us to replace it with something else. Maybe "blending in." Hell, even "assimilating," which I hate, is still preferable. But yeah, I get it. I just wanted to let my feelings out.

Beautiful piece and beautiful line: "To be cissed is to get exactly what you wanted, only to find out that it hurts like hell."

I can't say I've ever had it rammed home that directly, but it is strange to be in spaces with other trans folks and to be read as cis. It's... lonely.

I think if you hadn't caught her in such a moment, where she was feeling threatened already, perhaps she'd have avoided making that unfortunate assumption. It's a shame, but none of us can always say the right thing or do the right thing. Perhaps you might contact her and talk to her about it?

I also disagree with the removal of the word "pass." I am aware that originally it meant "pass for female/male," but it is more and more commonly used as "pass as cis," which is similar in context and concept to "pass for white" among PoC and Aboriginal communities. We need the language to describe a concept like passing privilege.

A friend wrote this on FB, which I think is really smart:

"his was interesting. It just proves that we're all human and that everyone needs to be educated. Just because you're a minority doesn't mean you haven't learned how to use the ways of privilege.

'"I don't like the word passing," Miss Janet snapped. "When I walk down the street, I'm just being. I'm not making a political statement because no one can tell that I'm trans."'

It seems to me that she needs a little refresher on what privilege is because only someone with some kind of privilege can have the luxury of saying, "I'm just being." The fact that she can just "be" and not "be beat up" is a benefit from passing.

It also seems to me that one of the reasons this stung so much is that you weren't just trying to ask a question, you were trying to ask a question that would mark you as one of her tribe, and not only did she fail to recognize you, but she then casually negated your membership.

So much to think about."

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
I also disagree with the removal of the word "pass." I am aware that originally it meant "pass for female/male," but it is more and more commonly used as "pass as cis," which is similar in context and concept to "pass for white" among PoC and Aboriginal communities. We need the language to describe a concept like passing privilege.

Thanks Sarah. "Passing" has such an awful history among PoC communities especially around the assumption that whatever you pass as is desirable and superior compared to what you really are. I tend to use "mistaken for" because it feels more equivalent to me between trans and cis, being the sort of person who doesn't think there's anything inherently wrong, or shameful, or inferior about being trans.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 01, 2014, 08:34:17 PM
I dislike passing too.

Me too. I prefer to run and tackle.

Passing is a concept that needs a word, I agree.  It's just that the word itself, passing, carries with it all the other things that word means outside of the trans context.  It makes me feel like if I "pass" I'm passing through like a thief, undetected, as something I'm not.   There is a fine line here, because I don't dispute being trans (meaning, not cis) but I do dispute not being a woman, and that is usually what is meant when people say you passed.  They don't mean you passed as cis, they mean you passed as a woman, because you are, after all, not a woman and here you fooled everybody into thinking you were.  I dislike that.

With that all said, it's not like I this is the most important issue out there.  I don't cringe when I hear the word, or feel upset by it in any way.  In fact, I'll even use it when I'm feeling lazy because it is a convenient shortcut.  It's a word that means the thing I want to get across and if I don't use it I will have to use several words to get the same thing explained.  I just wish we had a different word for it is all.

Honestly I'm not sure I get the point either. Why just allude to your being a trans woman, and if you do pass, what can you expect? Being trans shouldn't have to be something that is visibly identifiable... and come on, it's obvious that you do like having the ability to pass. You talk about it all the time. You could have just said, "I'm a trans woman, and I was wondering..." if you wanted her to know. I don't think it's fair to be hurt if you didn't fully communicate where you were coming from, not that it makes sense of Janet to assume someone is cis in that environment either but...

Sorry if this seems blunt I'm just a little confused D: if you think passing is the wrong word, then you're also going to have to get used to and internalize the fact that being trans is not necessarily outwardly identifiable. If you weren't afraid to call yourself trans, you wouldn't have to be hurt by being mistaken for cis.

Quote from: sad panda on May 01, 2014, 09:21:22 PM
Honestly I'm not sure I get the point either. Why just allude to your being a trans woman, and if you do pass, what can you expect? Being trans shouldn't have to be something that is visibly identifiable... and come on, it's obvious that you do like having the ability to pass. You talk about it all the time. You could have just said, "I'm a trans woman, and I was wondering..." if you wanted her to know. I don't think it's fair to be hurt if you didn't fully communicate where you were coming from, not that it makes sense of Janet to assume someone is cis in that environment either but...

Sorry if this seems blunt I'm just a little confused D: if you think passing is the wrong word, then you're also going to have to get used to and internalize the fact that being trans is not necessarily outwardly identifiable. If you weren't afraid to call yourself trans, you wouldn't have to be hurt by being mistaken for cis.

I agree  with the bold.

Quote from: sad panda on May 01, 2014, 09:21:22 PM
Honestly I'm not sure I get the point either. Why just allude to your being a trans woman, and if you do pass, what can you expect? Being trans shouldn't have to be something that is visibly identifiable... and come on, it's obvious that you do like having the ability to pass. You talk about it all the time. You could have just said, "I'm a trans woman, and I was wondering..." if you wanted her to know. I don't think it's fair to be hurt if you didn't fully communicate where you were coming from, not that it makes sense of Janet to assume someone is cis in that environment either but...

First of all don't ever be afraid of being blunt or confronting me for any perceived bull->-bleeped-<- or privilege. I prefer the dialogue. I do have a tendency and maybe a bad habit of avoiding blatant expressions of "I am trans," maybe partly because of Asian cultural upbringing that emphasizes grace and delicacy. But I did preface my question by saying she's an inspiration to me and that I've listened to her podcast and read articles about her. That combined with my objectively deep voice and strong brow, and the fact that she's trans herself, made me assume that she would recognize the signals. I was also not publicly disclosed at the time so I really had no idea that even people who are around trans people didn't read me as trans.

The other thing is that is a person not allowed to be ambivalent about a privilege? Sure, I have an ego and enjoy being perceived as attractive, lovable, etc. But do I enjoy being mistaken for cis? Just personally, not really. Given the choice between everyone knowing I'm trans but finding me likable and wanting to be my friend, etc., I'd rather have that than people thinking I'm cis but feeling isolated. That's just the truth.

Finally, it really is just impolite especially in a trans context to assume someone's trans status. She of all people should know that. It was a lapse of judgment and an understandable one, but I don't think my disappointment was unwarranted.

And finally finally, how would you like me to talk about myself and my experiences? Am I responsible for people's feelings when I'm only expressing the fact that I'm mistaken for cis in contexts where it's topical and appropriate? People are allowed to talk about their experiences around these issues but somehow a trans woman leading a relatively happy life gets eyed with suspicion. It's been an ongoing issue for me, alienating other trans people for what I feel are just talking about facts regarding my life, so I'd like some feedback about how you would prefer I behave.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 01, 2014, 10:10:00 PM
First of all don't ever be afraid of being blunt or confronting me for any perceived bull->-bleeped-<- or privilege. I prefer the dialogue. I do have a tendency and maybe a bad habit of avoiding blatant expressions of "I am trans," maybe partly because of Asian cultural upbringing that emphasizes grace and delicacy. But I did preface my question by saying she's an inspiration to me and that I've listened to her podcast and read articles about her. That combined with my objectively deep voice and strong brow, and the fact that she's trans herself, made me assume that she would recognize the signals. I was also not publicly disclosed at the time so I really had no idea that even people who are around trans people didn't read me as trans.

The other thing is that is a person not allowed to be ambivalent about a privilege? Sure, I have an ego and enjoy being perceived as attractive, lovable, etc. But do I enjoy being mistaken for cis? Just personally, not really. Given the choice between everyone knowing I'm trans but finding me likable and wanting to be my friend, etc., I'd rather have that than people thinking I'm cis but feeling isolated. That's just the truth.

Finally, it really is just impolite especially in a trans context to assume someone's trans status. She of all people should know that. It was a lapse of judgment and an understandable one, but I don't think my disappointment was unwarranted.

And finally finally, how would you like me to talk about myself and my experiences? Am I responsible for people's feelings when I'm only expressing the fact that I'm mistaken for cis in contexts where it's topical and appropriate? People are allowed to talk about their experiences around these issues but somehow a trans woman leading a relatively happy life gets eyed with suspicion. It's been an ongoing issue for me, alienating other trans people for what I feel are just talking about facts regarding my life, so I'd like some feedback about how you would prefer I behave.

rock on.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 01, 2014, 10:10:00 PM
First of all don't ever be afraid of being blunt or confronting me for any perceived bull->-bleeped-<- or privilege. I prefer the dialogue. I do have a tendency and maybe a bad habit of avoiding blatant expressions of "I am trans," maybe partly because of Asian cultural upbringing that emphasizes grace and delicacy. But I did preface my question by saying she's an inspiration to me and that I've listened to her podcast and read articles about her. That combined with my objectively deep voice and strong brow, and the fact that she's trans herself, made me assume that she would recognize the signals. I was also not publicly disclosed at the time so I really had no idea that even people who are around trans people didn't read me as trans.

Is it ungraceful to be trans? Don't you mean cultural shame?

QuoteFinally, it really is just impolite especially in a trans context to assume someone's trans status. She of all people should know that. It was a lapse of judgment and an understandable one, but I don't think my disappointment was unwarranted.

Granted!

QuoteAnd finally finally, how would you like me to talk about myself and my experiences? Am I responsible for people's feelings when I'm only expressing the fact that I'm mistaken for cis in contexts where it's topical and appropriate? People are allowed to talk about their experiences around these issues but somehow a trans woman leading a relatively happy life gets eyed with suspicion. It's been an ongoing issue for me, alienating other trans people for what I feel are just talking about facts regarding my life, so I'd like some feedback about how you would prefer I behave.

Sorry hon, just feels like a pattern. For someone who doesn't like being perceived as cis, honestly? You focus a lot on times when it happened and I wonder what you are expecting if you're presenting as a woman, of whom the vast majority *are* cis. I'm mistaken for a cis girl every day of my life, and I don't like it either, but I don't talk about it often cuz yah, it happens. If you don't like it, you can tell people that you are trans, or otherwise. I guess I just want to point out that that's an option, and you really cannot always expect people to know, and at any rate I don't think it's right to say you are hurt and sort of take shots at other people for not knowing when you didn't want to say it.

Quote from: sad panda on May 01, 2014, 10:48:13 PM
Is it ungraceful to be trans? Don't you mean cultural shame?

No I mean that inserting "I am trans" into a conversation with a stranger is tricky and derailing especially if you're not talking about anything remotely related. I don't go around introducing myself as, "Hello, I'm Meredith. I am trans," do you? And yes, as I said I wasn't publicly disclosed when this incident happened so I was absolutely expecting her to read the signals. And maybe that's an unfair expectation, but that's negated by what you acknowledged below, which is that in a trans context she shouldn't have expectations about people's trans status in the first place.

Quote from: sad panda on May 01, 2014, 10:48:13 PM
Sorry hon, just feels like a pattern. For someone who doesn't like being perceived as cis, honestly? You focus a lot on times when it happened and I wonder what you are expecting if you're presenting as a woman, of whom the vast majority *are* cis. I'm mistaken for a cis girl every day of my life, and I don't like it either, but I don't talk about it often cuz yah, it happens. If you don't like it, you can tell people that you are trans, or otherwise. I guess I just want to point out that that's an option, and you really cannot always expect people to know, and at any rate I don't think it's right to say you are hurt and sort of take shots at other people for not knowing when you didn't want to say it.

How about we make a deal that it's probably not a good idea to tell people how to feel? Is it "right" for a trans woman to be hurt if other people misgender her when she perceives herself to be presenting as female and the other person sees her as male? Well, maybe not technically unless they've had a conversation first and she explicitly says she prefers to be referred to as female. But are you going to tell her she shouldn't feel hurt when that happens? I hope not because her feelings are real and should be acknowledged, and I'm just asking you to hold me to the same standard.

So I hope you can understand that it's not always convenient for me to disclose to people within minutes of meeting them, especially given that disclosing to one person cannot guarantee that person won't tell other people, especially if you've only just met them. Essentially what you're saying here is that people who are stealth (which thankfully I'm not anymore, and I wasn't ever really fully stealth) aren't allowed to have bad feelings about being mistaken for cis and that they should disclose to everyone if they have said bad feelings. That sounds pretty heartless to me.

As for taking shots at people, did you even read what I wrote, both on my blog and here? I pointed out the incident and how it made me feel. I acknowledged that it was an understandable error in judgment given the situation. How is that taking a shot at someone?

Plenty of people in my life don't know I'm in transition since I pass. It doesn't make me feel terrible when someone perceives me to be cis. I'm not yelling from the rooftops I'm in transition, it's too personal for me to share with strangers. It's no ones business unless I feel like telling someone. Not to mention my area is pretty conservative so I have to be careful around here.

The serious problem with our society regarding the trans community is the perception of what is a trans person, way too many misconceptions. I do wish to help the trans community one day but I'd like to create some sort of reputation first and then disclose my trans status later in life.  I'd rather continue living my life and doing the things I love vs worrying about my trans status 24/7...So whenever someone does find out about my trans status, they'll see me for me and hopefully I just might break all the terrible misconceptions of what they considered to be trans. Plus if they're willing to listen I'd be more than happy to educate them about our community.

So basically from my view point those of us who do pass have an opportunity to change society's views about the trans community from inside the system sort of speak.

I wonder if I'll ever be cissed?  I doubt it, I'm a blender inner not a passer.  We do get wrapped up in semantics, and there are good reasons for that.  Words can hurt.  They can also heal.  I am a believer in politeness, and as much as possible grace.  In the article, MS Mock was rude.  She is a self described "fish" and her book both describes her struggle, and her triumph.  It doesn't give her the right to be ungracious.

One of the things that troubles me is that for most of us, we just want to get along as best we can.  If I am person with passing or cis privilege, there is little motivation to associate with trans men and women who do not blend in so well.  Is the measure of a successful transition to become invisible, or to be happy?  For me it is to be both happy, and to be of some service.

Injustice anywhere, to PoC, trans folks, child exploitation  .... the list goes on, diminishes me, it doesn't much matter how well I as an individual blend into the social fabric, when I am surrounded by the suffering of others.  I am not afraid of identifying as trans, but first I identify as human.  Other that Pride marches it has been a while since I was on the streets trying to make a difference.  I still do what I can in quieter ways, but I am no longer a firebrand.  Is that a loss to my life, or a recognition of the necessity for balance?

I feel an obligation to my sisters and brothers to be available, that is why I use my real name and picture, and why if anyone wants to contact me I allow it.  I think the argument over vernacular is distracting from the real pain trans people experience on the street.  My job, as I see it, is to participate in the world as it is, and to try, particularly in the context of trans folks, to neither hide nor be invisible.  Wandered of topic a bit didn't I.  Ah well, it is age privilege.

Julie

The problem with the word "passing" is it infers deception.  Which is just the opposite of what transition is about, honesty and authenticity.  If I need to use a word, I use the word "blend".  Because as Janet said, I'm just being me.  I'm not involved in any deception; I'm just another woman in the world.

I also want to also add another point about that article.  First, that was on person's opinion of what happened.  Maybe she misread Janet's meaning/intention.  Even if she didn't.... Ms Mock has been on a very long book tour.  I'm sure she's tired and just wants to go home at this point.  In that vein I think we need to cut her some slack.  One last point.  Look at this from speaker's point of view.  She has to be prepared to speak to two very different audiences at the same time; not an easy task.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2014, 08:34:52 PM
Beautiful piece and beautiful line: "To be cissed is to get exactly what you wanted, only to find out that it hurts like hell."

Speaking as a professional writer, I just want to agree - that was a helluva a payoff! Well said!

I'll be honest, I'm having an issue personally connecting with this.  Perhaps it's simple ignorance on my part or because of my lack of experience, but this all sounds like trans politics/language issue that I can't fully appreciate.  I want to pass.  Not only as female, but as cis, even to other trans people.  Maybe I shouldn't feel that way and that will change in time, but I do want to pass at all times and neither the word itself or the event of it happening seem upsetting to me.  It's just how I feel on the subject.  Having said all that, I can understand why you have personally come to feel this way.  Perhaps it is isolating to be cissed when you are with another transperson.  Maybe I'm idealizing something that I can't yet appreciate in it's entirety.  It will be interesting to see if my view on this changes with time and more experience.  In any event, sorry you went through that.

As for the word passing and Janet Mock's reaction, I really don't understand why it has to be a big deal.  I understand the implications it has and the connotations involved, but it's an understandable phrase that most of us use.  And it's been my experience that sometimes non-passing or non-stealth transwomen try to shame women that aren't out as trans either socially or physically.  I don't think that's what anyone here is doing nor do I know enough about Janet Mock's views, but I suspect that's part of the motivation behind the movement in changing the language.  Again, I'm ignorant on transpolitics and have little direct experience as I am still transitioning.  I just don't see the issue with using the phrase "passing" and desiring the ability to pass as our identified gender both socially and physically.