"Passing" is a really loaded term for people of color, and I think it's important to recognize that history among trans people. If we get to go around asking people not to use certain pronouns with us or the terms shee-**le and tr***y, it's important for us to recognize that "passing" as a term connotes a history that carries much more emotional weight for certain people than for others. It's not as big of a weight as using other words, but it's there.

As I mentioned in the piece LTL, I used to love it when it happened, especially when I was pre-op. But now I'm a lot more ambivalent because I feel like it erases my history.

Quote from: Carlita on May 02, 2014, 06:10:25 AM
Speaking as a professional writer, I just want to agree - that was a helluva a payoff! Well said!

Thanks so much Carlita! Please pm me if you want to connect. I'm looking for more trans writer friends.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 02, 2014, 07:49:09 AM
"Passing" is a really loaded term for people of color, and I think it's important to recognize that history among trans people. If we get to go around asking people not to use certain pronouns with us or the terms shee-**le and tr***y, it's important for us to recognize that "passing" as a term connotes a history that carries much more emotional weight for certain people than for others. It's not as big of a weight as using other words, but it's there.

As I mentioned in the piece LTL, I used to love it when it happened, especially when I was pre-op. But now I'm a lot more ambivalent because I feel like it erases my history.

I read this piece and know where you are coming for.  Like I said, it's hard for me to fully appreciate it, but it's very likely experience will change my own view.  Nonetheless, I do see why you would feel annoyed given the fact that you are active in the community.

Having said all that, if you don't mind answering, is why passing is such a bad term? Usually people tend to dislike the term for political purposes like being against those in stealth and wanting everyone to be openly trans.  That sort of annoys me because it turns my own existence into a political fight that I'm not interested and dictates how others should live.  However, I realize you and others here don't hold that view, so I'm wondering why everyone here takes issue with the term and what angle Janet Mock is coming from.  What makes it bad for our community and those who are trans people of color?  Sorry if this is very ignorant, but I'm just not understanding where that view comes from and know very little about Janet Mock.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 02, 2014, 08:41:27 AM
Having said all that, if you don't mind answering, is why passing is such a bad term?

I think the problem a lot of people have with the term is that if you pass AS something, that means you aren't one. I.e. you're deceiving people. If I pass as a woman that means I'm not a woman.

Mock goes beyond that. She doesn't like the very idea of trying to pass. We should be accepted the same way cis women are, even by people who know we are trans.

I applaud Mock's attempting to change societal attitudes toward us, but until everyone in the world gets past their preconceptions and gender programming, many of us DO want to pass, understandably IMO.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 02, 2014, 08:57:13 AM
I think the problem a lot of people have with the term is that if you pass AS something, that means you aren't one. I.e. you're deceiving people. If I pass as a woman that means I'm not a woman.

Mock goes beyond that. She doesn't like the very idea of trying to pass. We should be accepted the same way cis women are, even by people who know we are trans.

I applaud Mock's attempting to change societal attitudes toward us, but until everyone in the world gets past their preconceptions and gender programming, many of us DO want to pass, understandably IMO.

Hmm, I agree that we should be accepted like cis women, but we aren't and it won't change soon. So I feel it makes sense for some of us to be stealth and adopt an appearance that we are comfortable with.   I have no problem fighting for our community and trying to make changes, but I don't want to make a political statement with my life.  I can fight for change and be stealth.

As for pass, I don't think it means anything deceptive.  We pass as females because we are.  Could there have been a better term?  Sure, but everyone understands it's meaning.  Again, I'm open to hearing other complaints about the term and learn different perspectives, but I don't really agree with that one.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 02, 2014, 09:19:26 AM
As for pass, I don't think it means anything deceptive.  We pass as females because we are.  Could there have been a better term?  Sure, but everyone understands it's meaning.  Again, I'm open to hearing other complaints about the term and learn different perspectives, but I don't really agree with that one.

Just historically it's a really divisive term in the black community because certain people can "pass" and try to pass as white while other people can't pass and are marginalized because they're black (sound familiar? there are a lot of analogies to trans). In that context, whites are perceived to be superior to blacks and also people who "pass" as white but have an African history were thought to be deceitful, liars, etc. Finally, a lot of passing black people shied away from non-passing black people for fear of being recognized as black.

LTL, I will always defend people's right to be stealth and am actually working passively on an article about why stealth is different form being gay closeted, but it does cause political limitations. For instance, what would you do if you were witness to trans discrimination in stealth mode? I was confronted with this several times when I hadn't publicly disclosed, and each time I had to decide to say something and risk disclosure, but it was a tough decision. That's something you might want to anticipate in your journey, as it can be a tough dilemma.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 02, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Just historically it's a really divisive term in the black community because certain people can "pass" and try to pass as white while other people can't pass and are marginalized because they're black (sound familiar? there are a lot of analogies to trans). In that context, whites are perceived to be superior to blacks and also people who "pass" as white but have an African history were thought to be deceitful, liars, etc. Finally, a lot of passing black people shied away from non-passing black people for fear of being recognized as black.

LTL, I will always defend people's right to be stealth and am actually working passively on an article about why stealth is different form being gay closeted, but it does cause political limitations. For instance, what would you do if you were witness to trans discrimination in stealth mode? I was confronted with this several times when I hadn't publicly disclosed, and each time I had to decide to say something and risk disclosure, but it was a tough decision. That's something you might want to anticipate in your journey, as it can be a tough dilemma.

That is a bit of a dilemma, though I would like to think I would stand up which I've done in the past.  Sad that I've witnessed it before, but it does exist and it's something to consider.  I don't think I would have to out myself to do so and didn't in the past, but I understand the fear and it would be harder in the moment once I present as female.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 02, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
For instance, what would you do if you were witness to trans discrimination in stealth mode?

Stealth and passing are two different things, right? I pass most places but I don't have any intention to live in stealth.

Passing means I have some choice as to the time and occasion upon which someone learns my past.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 02, 2014, 10:11:22 AM
Stealth and passing are two different things, right? I pass most places but I don't have any intention to live in stealth.

Passing means I have some choice as to the time and occasion upon which someone learns my past.

Yes, that's true. I myself did not realize I was stealth until someone pointed it out to me. I had no intention of being stealth, in the sense that I kept being an LGBT advocate and outspoken activist. I just didn't talk about my own history. I figured I was just being private and other people were respecting my privacy by not asking me intrusive questions. As it turns out, many fewer people knew than I thought.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 02, 2014, 07:50:13 AM
Thanks so much Carlita! Please pm me if you want to connect. I'm looking for more trans writer friends.

Thank you, that would be great. I'll be in touch soon!

Quote from: learningtolive on May 02, 2014, 06:47:51 AM
And it's been my experience that sometimes non-passing or non-stealth transwomen try to shame women that aren't out as trans either socially or physically.

Hi LtL. This comment made me pause, thank you for posting that. Probably because I am 'non-passing', so I'm never on the receiving end, and hence wasn't aware of such a phenomenon.

Instead, I experienced the other side of the coin: I am acutely aware of attitudes that suggest "if you're not passing, or attempting to blend in, you're doing it wrong".

I guess the only thing I can add is that I wish that trans* people of all stripes, whether they be fully-transitioned-and-stealth, or out-and-colorful, regardless of which gender they're coming from, could accept one another as-we-are. We'll find no closer allies than each other.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 02, 2014, 08:41:27 AM
Usually people tend to dislike the term for political purposes like being against those in stealth and wanting everyone to be openly trans.

I think there are people on both sides that dislike the term.  And I don't think it is always about the concept itself of passing or blending, but the word itself "pass" carries with it a lot of baggage.

For me, I dislike it, but mostly with ambivalence.  And I am open to changing my mind about it though, like I have with terms like cis, etc.

Quote from: JesseG on May 02, 2014, 10:59:44 AM
Instead, I experienced the other side of the coin: I am acutely aware of attitudes that suggest "if you're not passing, or attempting to blend in, you're doing it wrong".

Argh, yeah, privilege is so complicated. I can totally admit to doing this, not necessarily overtly, but in retrospect I can be harder on visibly trans women (that's the term a friend suggested as a replacement for not-passing) than those who blend in. It's just that early in transition when I tried to be part of the drag / trans community I had some pretty bad experiences that left a mark, so I've developed prejudices I'm trying to get over.

I think I use stealth incorrectly.  I am trying to say I am not an activist like Mock, that my documents and body ID me as female and I control whether I give out my birth gender or genital condition, and to who.  It isn't about sneaking around, there is nothing to sneak.  In all regards that matter to me, I am a woman.

What I don't get is why people would ever want to only be known as trans?  Does the trans woman today dream of a day when they can get SRS and VFS and FFS and boobs and buy $1000's worth of new clothes, give up the love of their families, and then walk around telling everyone they are not born women, but are still 'real' women?   it isn't my cup of tea, but the people who do this, seem to be changing how society perceives us in a positive way (I think). 

I think the original question was a good one in light of what Janet does for a living, which is sell books about herself.  In the mid 80's there was a trans? person who wore a 1-piece swimsuit and high heels with full makeup and a mustache who walked up and down Hennepin Avenue in Mpls., and got screamed at and spit on and slurred.  If someone like this who didn't pass and was unknown wrote the book, would anyone care or put her on TV?

Quote from: JulieBlair on May 02, 2014, 03:53:06 AM
I wonder if I'll ever be cissed?  I doubt it, I'm a blender inner not a passer.  We do get wrapped up in semantics, and there are good reasons for that.  Words can hurt.  They can also heal.  I am a believer in politeness, and as much as possible grace.  In the article, MS Mock was rude.  She is a self described "fish" and her book both describes her struggle, and her triumph.  It doesn't give her the right to be ungracious.

I think different strategies work in different contexts and there are definitely ways that her aggressiveness works to her benefit sometimes. But yeah, that's generally not my approach, for better or for worse. I tend to have a long leash but I can get sassy when my patience runs out.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 01, 2014, 08:36:52 PM
A friend wrote this on FB, which I think is really smart:

"his was interesting. It just proves that we're all human and that everyone needs to be educated. Just because you're a minority doesn't mean you haven't learned how to use the ways of privilege.

'"I don't like the word passing," Miss Janet snapped. "When I walk down the street, I'm just being. I'm not making a political statement because no one can tell that I'm trans."'

It seems to me that she needs a little refresher on what privilege is because only someone with some kind of privilege can have the luxury of saying, "I'm just being." The fact that she can just "be" and not "be beat up" is a benefit from passing.

It also seems to me that one of the reasons this stung so much is that you weren't just trying to ask a question, you were trying to ask a question that would mark you as one of her tribe, and not only did she fail to recognize you, but she then casually negated your membership.

So much to think about."

Wow, sis, I loved this post and your blog! Sooooo intriguing. Janet should see this and definitely apologize.

Quote from: llerret on May 02, 2014, 10:56:30 PM
Wow, sis, I loved this post and your blog! Sooooo intriguing. Janet should see this and definitely apologize.

Thanks so much! Maybe someday we can talk about it... we both live in New York and know people in common I've figured out.