What I feel I should achieve with hrt is a sense of internal peace and calmness
passing would obviously help with that...

passing is one thing
feeling like you pass is another...

There is no "standard" you have to achieve outside of what you can live with. Just be careful not to set your goals so high that they become unattainable and it could even require some adjustment in your attitude towards yourself in the process. You're an individual and what works for others may or not work for you, so simple answers aren't likely going to present themselves. Just do what you feel you need to do to be comfortable with yourself, that's the important part. If it involves how others see you, then so be it. No one here should be telling you to ignore what you may be terribly concerned with most. Just try not to let it consume you and that could be where some change of thinking on your part may come into play. This is more than just a physical transition, its also a mental and emotional one for you and those around you on a regular basis.

Having friends who are indeed "unpassable" trans women, basically here's the deal...

Whether you "pass" or not, eventually you finish the "transition" process. You reach a point where you realize that this is as feminine as you're going to get, you establish this new "normal," and you go on with life accepting what you have and don't have.

Basically if you don't "pass," after a while you get used to the stares, used to having a "queer" appearance, or voice, or whatever it is that outs you as trans, and you just stop thinking about it because it becomes normal. Basically, you realize that you're doing the best you can with what you have to work with. And you realize that the problem isn't with you for not living up to some sort of fabricated ideal, the problem is with the society that perpetuates those ideals in the first place. You're just doing what makes you happy. And those who have a problem with it are the ones who are in the wrong.

So yeah... that's basically what most of my "unpassable" MtF friends say. They realize that they have a right to be happy in spite of not living up to societal "ideals." And when worst comes to worst, they keep a carry letter with them so that they can prove that they really are legally allowed in female spaces, which eases a lot of the worry.

Over time, whatever state you end up in permanently, your brain will adjust to whatever that new default "normal" is, and you'll quit consciously thinking about it. The brain is funny like that.

Carrie,
   I thought I was the only one who carried documentation in their purse.     Yeah, I guess I knew I wasn't, but finally having my driver's license with the gender marker 'F' is a psychic comfort.  I've never yet had to prove anything, but I still have a long wait until I can get my surgery letters.  I think till I'm post-op I'll keep my envelope from my doc and the court handy.  Kind of sad that I feel this is necessary, but I do.

Julie

Managing your expectations and being comfortable being in your skin like Izzy said.  Passing isn't looking like a cover girl, it's being your authentic woman. Part of that is looking in the mirror and liking what you see, but it is mostly about you liking who you are.  Even if you seem 'unpassable', you will be yourself at long last.

This site has a lot of great information but it seems (in my short time here) to be a fear magnifier for us as well.  We mostly talk about the difficulty of living up to the definition of femininity we see in the media.  Those unreal expectations put on us by society are the most damaging thing ever, more that getting tr&y'd on the street or discriminated against.  The harder we try to match the picture, the more we see the parts where we fall short, it's a losing game and the only one who we hurt is ourselves.

We MtF can learn a lot from the gender queer folks who defy societal expectations and live their life as they want to.  You need some balls to be a trans woman in this man's world.

So says an old bull dyke looking ->-bleeped-<- with 25 years of happy life behind her.  It's up to you to take the meat and leave the bone.

Quote from: MikaylaGC on May 01, 2014, 10:47:30 PM
It's a funny thing HRT (I'm 2mths on E & 6mths on spiro etc),in a way for me the HRT has made my dysphoria worse, as I'm like really opening up my mind through HRT to a whole new world of being and experiencing all the things a woman does(and I'm sure theres more to come for me, alot more) but I'm still stuck in this slowly androgynising body, which kind of frustrates me more than pre-HRT/T-blockers. I really wish there was some place I could go for like a year or two, like some Trans monastery in the tibetan mountains LOL and comeback a sexy bishe But thats not to be I guess. I dont really have any answers for you accept to say I understand totally what you mean, and I dont think there are any real clear cut answers for this stage most of us are in(1st two years, I guess).
But then again, this is why Susans Place(Ive read this site for years) exists tho right? 'Coz there arent any "hey go do this" answers, so we come here for support/help/inspiration & hopefully a good laugh so we can keep going.
Keep smiling Babes, were here for you

I think the trans monastery is a great idea.

I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...

Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...

Quoted simply for truth..

Many of the women here apply impossible standards to themselves and make themselves miserable in the process.

The seventh month??? Wow, am I out of it or what?

Actually, I guess makes sense for me since I try not to be ruled by rules. Especially those that say things like THou Shall Have FFS, Thou Shall Have GRS, Thou Shall Have BA, etc etc.

I have a simple standard, or reality check, for passing. On a Friday evening, or Saturday late morning, go to the grocery store and spend some quality time in the check-out line. Look around at the other women there. As in really look.

My second reality check is HRT related in a way. How do You feel when you see yourself in the mirror. I guess for me after 7 months or so I started to feel a little better seeing my top half naked. Seeing the beginnings of a body I can be comfortable in was a great self confidence booster.

At around that point in time I guess is when I started to feel the need to venture out into the real world as the real me. What mattered was how doing that made me feel. Alive for the first time in many decades. Genuine. That mostly comes from the inside I think.

What other "Standard" is there greater then feeling genuine?

Genuine is personal. Mine alone. I own it. We've spent a lifetime trying in vain trying to live up societies "Standard" for how we were born. Does which society setting the rules matter? I think not.

I want my life back.  NO... I want MY life. I never had one yet. I lived another's, not mine The life I want for me. I already tried living up to a "Standard" I did not set. Doomed for failure from the start. If I learned one lesson these past years, it is I know what does not work

If anyone needed convincing that women come in all shape and sizes, this little video might help!   




Hugs.
Donna

Somewhat off subject but for the Europeans here who are familiar with Ryanair, Easyjet etc... this should also ring a bell.   




Sorry, I found it so funny I couldn't resist!

P.S. ...and BTW, there is a direct link between both of these performances and the theme of this thread.

Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...

Lol, That would be part of why I'm in therapy.  It's a great point when you think about it.

To be honest, I really should have done more prep work on my self esteem before moving forward.  Insecurities are difficult to fight back while in transition.  It's doable and I'm trying, but all the stress of a transition makes it harder to sort things out.  That would be something I learned while transitioning that I wish I could pass on to those just starting out.  It will make transitioning so much easier and that's a good thing considering how hard it really is. 

Society *does* apply these standards to cis women... it's just that instead of getting called transsexual, they get told they're ugly (including vicious, horrible catcalls). And it's basically true; the vast majority learn to ignore [some of] it, and the ones who don't end up with eating disorders, psychological damage, etc. This society can be downright toxic on the subject of female beauty.

(Cis women don't face the same risks of violence rooted in transphobia, of course; I'm talking specifically about societal beauty standards.)

Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 03, 2014, 09:43:11 AM
Society *does* apply these standards to cis women... it's just that instead of getting called transsexual, they get told they're ugly (including vicious, horrible catcalls). And it's basically true; the vast majority learn to ignore [some of] it, and the ones who don't end up with eating disorders, psychological damage, etc. This society can be downright toxic on the subject of female beauty.

(Cis women don't face the same risks of violence rooted in transphobia, of course; I'm talking specifically about societal beauty standards.)

Yeah, whether you are cis or trans, there are plenty of unfair standards that women deal with.  I'm glad that I'm transitioning, but I miss the light appearance standards that men have.  If I wasn't judged to the level women recieve, I'd feel a little more okay about how I look.  And sadly it's all me doing the judging on myself. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 09:50:09 AM
And sadly it's all me doing the judging on myself.

We are often our worse enemies.  I suspect in some strange sick way a vain attempt to try to otherwise convince ourselves that this path is not a good idea

Whew... 7 months? I remember when I was at 7 months. I thought I was lookin pretty good! Now, I look at my 7 through even the 11th month and think I had a long way to go then in comparison to where I'm at now.

Passing in the sense of actually being perceived as a cis female is very rare in the trans community. Yes, you may pass in a fleeting moment such as at the check out stand, but it's rare when a trans female can, for example, get a job working with the public and go undetected for months. I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).

I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.

Quote from: nikkit72 on May 03, 2014, 05:34:14 AM
I think if you applied the same standards that some girls on here want to attain to regular cis women, then most of insecure ones would end up in therapy. The others would simply ignore these standards to varying degrees...

Truer words were never spoken.  The cis woman gets bombarded from early childhood and there are many who grow up to be unsatisfied and unhappy because they can't meet those expectations and be true to themselves.  If we trans women just refuse to buy into the hype, we'll all be happier and maybe help tone down the din for every woman.

LTL : I hear you, and it sucks. I'm my own harshest critic, too.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 10:00:34 AM
Passing in the sense of actually being perceived as a cis female is very rare in the trans community. Yes, you may pass in a fleeting moment such as at the check out stand, but it's rare when a trans female can, for example, get a job working with the public and go undetected for months.
In some ways this cispass depends on the woman, so maybe my experience isn't universal, but I truly believe you are wrong about the rarity of passing completely.  The transition experience is so hard in part because you're always comparing yourself to some ideal you hold to be 'real girl' in your head.  It is also hard because you still have some male expression that has yet to fully blend in, though you are far enough along that you probably have little left of the old you.  In your example, sure there may be someone in the store who wondered for a moment, but that really is unlikely to be true of everyone.  Self esteem / confidence does play a role, more about that below

I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).
Believe it or not, the spectrum of woman born is really wide.  It spans from petite to WNBA center in terms of body type/size, it is hard for women on the WNBA side to pass as cis, and hard for the petite to get beyond their stature as well.  We fit in all along the spectrum and fit in just fine.  Stressing about things you can't change won't make us pass any better and may make us seem false in our presentation because we don't seem comfortable in our own skin.  What you mistake as self esteem IS passing, and it is a trait of true womanhood that many cis girls wish they could attain.

I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.
This is true, having to make up a past is hard and once you set out to deceive, you are really being trapped in a web of lies... so don't go overboard.  For example, it isn't necessary to know the names of every cabbage patch doll from your childhood to prove your womanhood, or to make up a story about your periods to 'fit in'.  Just don't buy into that baloney.  It is fine to say I didn't play with dolls much as  a kid, or 'puberty was hard for me'.  All of that is true and isn't a tell that gives you away.  Heck, lots of girls were tomboys and played boy games, you're just like them.  Lots of girls didn't get along with their moms or had a rough childhood or weren't accepted by the other kids, which is like a lot of us lived through.  Focus on your shared experience not on what you think might be the ideal girlhood experience.  I think that this goes to the heart of the OP's question - and the answer is to keep it simple and accept yourself as just as screwed up as the rest of the women in this world.

It is a terrible choice to have to make.  If we could all be 'normal' it would be much easier for us... except that there is no normal and there isn't really a choice except the choice live as yourself rather than die as someone else.

With love

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 10:00:34 AM
I think our expectations are high given the genetic dispositions many of us will not be able to overcome (voice, height, body shape, hand size, skull size, etc). I think this is the type of "passing" the OP is concerned with, not the type where you accept yourself and nobody bothers you (which imo isn't passing, it's called having self esteem and that does have rewards).

I'll also say that it's really hard to get over the fact that you have lived as a male before. There's history you have to cover (or at least manipulate) when socializing. That alone can cause dysphoria. There's a lot that we miss out on even if we do pass 100% of the time. Being transsexual is a really crappy hand in life. It's every bit as disabling as the worst types of anxiety disorders. And that I don't believe will ever change no matter how accepting society becomes.

Yeah, that having lived as male is a tough one. I could prolly pass forever as I don't have any male markers like a lrage anything, I'm tiny even for a woman and not just height wise but everything else too, my shoulders are like 13 inches wide, but even now women start talking to me about stuff like having a family and getting preggers and all this other stuff and I just kind of clam up. I mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes. So, while I'm lucky in one respect in the other I constantly find myself growing ever more doubtful that I'll ever really be able to escape my trans status. It seems like trying to get to Mars. I might make it there but then I'm stuck, alone and have no way of making it back. Sometimes, I just think I should detransition and just try to lie as a male again. the fact that my BF is moving to Maryland for work and I can't leave Philadelphia or I'll be arrested, really isn't helping matters. Passing really isn't everything and it brings with it a whole other set of problems, some of which are worse than not-passing, cause it becomes that much harder to accept being trans when you know you can basically escape but your whole life would have to be a lie. I don't know if I can live like that. It's like that movie a History of Violence or A Talented Mr. Ripley. Neither of which have happy endings. In the former, he does escape his violent past, but it comes back to haunt him. Ripley has to kill everyone. So be careful what you wish for.