QuoteI mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes.

Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.

Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.

That's true.  I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing.  I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female.  Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards.  That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features.  I mean some do, but most don't.  As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head.  And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.

Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
1) In some ways this cispass depends on the woman, so maybe my experience isn't universal, but I truly believe you are wrong about the rarity of passing completely.  The transition experience is so hard in part because you're always comparing yourself to some ideal you hold to be 'real girl' in your head.  It is also hard because you still have some male expression that has yet to fully blend in, though you are far enough along that you probably have little left of the old you.  In your example, sure there may be someone in the store who wondered for a moment, but that really is unlikely to be true of everyone.  Self esteem / confidence does play a role, more about that below

2) Believe it or not, the spectrum of woman born is really wide.  It spans from petite to WNBA center in terms of body type/size, it is hard for women on the WNBA side to pass as cis, and hard for the petite to get beyond their stature as well.  We fit in all along the spectrum and fit in just fine.  Stressing about things you can't change won't make us pass any better and may make us seem false in our presentation because we don't seem comfortable in our own skin.  What you mistake as self esteem IS passing, and it is a trait of true womanhood that many cis girls wish they could attain.

3) This is true, having to make up a past is hard and once you set out to deceive, you are really being trapped in a web of lies... so don't go overboard.  For example, it isn't necessary to know the names of every cabbage patch doll from your childhood to prove your womanhood, or to make up a story about your periods to 'fit in'.  Just don't buy into that baloney.  It is fine to say I didn't play with dolls much as  a kid, or 'puberty was hard for me'.  All of that is true and isn't a tell that gives you away.  Heck, lots of girls were tomboys and played boy games, you're just like them.  Lots of girls didn't get along with their moms or had a rough childhood or weren't accepted by the other kids, which is like a lot of us lived through.  Focus on your shared experience not on what you think might be the ideal girlhood experience.  I think that this goes to the heart of the OP's question - and the answer is to keep it simple and accept yourself as just as screwed up as the rest of the women in this world.

It is a terrible choice to have to make.  If we could all be 'normal' it would be much easier for us... except that there is no normal and there isn't really a choice except the choice live as yourself rather than die as someone else.

With love

I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.


1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.

I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.


2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!

3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth.  Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.

I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.

Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 03, 2014, 11:55:23 AM
Yeah, that having lived as male is a tough one. I could prolly pass forever as I don't have any male markers like a lrage anything, I'm tiny even for a woman and not just height wise but everything else too, my shoulders are like 13 inches wide, but even now women start talking to me about stuff like having a family and getting preggers and all this other stuff and I just kind of clam up. I mean what I really want to do is go stealth and just kind of vanish, but where did I come from, who are my people, what was my childhood like, first BFs, prom, period, and on and on and on the list goes. So, while I'm lucky in one respect in the other I constantly find myself growing ever more doubtful that I'll ever really be able to escape my trans status. It seems like trying to get to Mars. I might make it there but then I'm stuck, alone and have no way of making it back. Sometimes, I just think I should detransition and just try to lie as a male again. the fact that my BF is moving to Maryland for work and I can't leave Philadelphia or I'll be arrested, really isn't helping matters. Passing really isn't everything and it brings with it a whole other set of problems, some of which are worse than not-passing, cause it becomes that much harder to accept being trans when you know you can basically escape but your whole life would have to be a lie. I don't know if I can live like that. It's like that movie a History of Violence or A Talented Mr. Ripley. Neither of which have happy endings. In the former, he does escape his violent past, but it comes back to haunt him. Ripley has to kill everyone. So be careful what you wish for.

I understand where you're coming from. I've turned a few transgender friends off by saying passing comes with a set of problems that are just difficult to pinpoint. It's kind of like if you don't pass, at least it's out there, ya know? But at the same time, passing makes you not want to be seen as transgender because you absolutely know there's a difference in how people treat cis gender and transgender people. But then again, the same people that are turned off by this observation are the same ones that respond "At least you are being treated as a cis gender female". And this is true too. I think counting your blessings is one way to just get over it. I do it every day. I am so grateful that I'm 5'3" and can rock small size tops. I'm very, very grateful that I haven't been misgendered in IDK how long. I'm extremely grateful that I can go out and get a job, and my employer will send me to the public restroom that is locked by key, and give me the female key. These are things that, if I didn't have, I don't know if I could go on either...

I believe in a God, and I think God never gives us anything we cannot handle. God knew I can't handle not going through transition without being perceived as female. If I'd have gone this far and still couldn't pass, I'd be considering suicide by now. I hope this helps you find some things about yourself that you can be grateful for.

I completely agree with Alaina.  While self esteem and confidence are important (things that I lack and need to develop), your appearance will always matter.  People gender with their eyes.  Things can be interpreted differently and all, but there are some core things that are picked up.  This is why I stress over my appearance and believe it will matter in the end. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 12:33:35 PM

Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Yeah, it's tough. But I get what Ducks is saying in the post above. We tend to forget that lots of cis girls and boys didn't have the ideal, stereotypical childhood either. I mean, I was a girl - but no prom, virtually no female friends, a lot of missed schooling, etc. And there are plenty of girls who just didn't date until adulthood - either because of strict parents, shyness, etc. There are even cis girls who never got periods. If you pass well, I think you could pretty much say anything about your past and not raise eyebrows. Well, aside from obvious male specific stuff.

That's true.  I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing.  I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female.  Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards.  That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features.  I mean some do, but most don't.  As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head.  And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.

I think we're talking about two different things. I just meant that not having a stereotypical girlhood will probably not cause alarm.

Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:10:29 PM


That's true.  I just think when talking about appearance standards, while hard on everyone, it's a bit trans specific when we talk about passing.  I mean we are all starting out for a "male" presentation and trying to be seen and accepted as female.  Beauty standards aside, most cis women don't get mistaken or ided as men if they don't meet the standards.  That's not to say they don't struggle because of these standards and have many other unique issues, but generally they are accepted as women and didn't start off with a male appearance/features.  I mean some do, but most don't.  As a transwoman, your options are to pass and be accepted as your gender or to not and have people see you as a guy in their head.  And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.


I think we're talking about two different things. I just meant that not having a stereotypical girlhood will probably not cause alarm.

Thing is, tell a group of women that you've never had a period. They're going to be jealous enough to ask you why, lol. I'd rather not talk about it does raise eyebrows in a female only group. Yeah, there are things you can say, but some people do not plan for these things. There are lots of things women go through that they talk among themselves about that, if you stray away, it's going to get a "what wait really??!" response, and if you don't have an appropriate response, it'll raise eyebrows. It's more of a dance that would be a whole lot easier if you weren't transgender.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 12:33:35 PM
And the truth is pretty transwomen are more embraced in society than those that aren't. It's just a different thing that I don't think cis people can totally understand, just like there are things we may not be able to fully appreciate as transwomen.

LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding.  Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty.  Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female  society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand.  Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either.  Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours? 

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:14:24 PM
Thing is, tell a group of women that you've never had a period. They're going to be jealous enough to ask you why, lol. I'd rather not talk about it does raise eyebrows in a female only group. Yeah, there are things you can say, but some people do not plan for these things. There are lots of things women go through that they talk among themselves about that, if you stray away, it's going to get a "what wait really??!" response, and if you don't have an appropriate response, it'll raise eyebrows. It's more of a dance that would be a whole lot easier if you weren't transgender.

Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.

Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:22:20 PM
Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.

Yeah well.. most men don't get asked about their periods. It's easier to keep quiet when you're not asked a question

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:23:58 PM

Quote from: FA on May 03, 2014, 01:22:20 PM
Oh. Well, I did have periods, so I don't know on that part. But I was seen as somebody 'odd' for a female what with experiences and behavior and such. Mostly, I think people found it amusing/interesting. But then again, I knew I was born female so, I suppose I would have taken it differently had I been a trans girl.

Yeah well.. most men don't get asked about their periods. It's easier to keep quiet when you're not asked a question

Oh I meant when I lived as female. But you're right, I don't know what it's like for a trans girl. Honestly though, I really don't recall ever being asked about periods as a female, except at the doctor. Not denying it might happen.
But anyway, my point was that I really don't think not having an ideal girlhood causes much alarm. I mean, they may ask why. But the first thing on their minds isn't going to be 'oh, she must be trans'. Even if you said you were on a boy's soccer team or something, you could probably make it sound believable.

True. I think what my point is, is that sometimes in explaining the why, maybe it might not come across as it adding up. There's always ways to make things sound believable, but you have to think of some things on the fly and that may lead to mistakes.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.


1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.

I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.


2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!

3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth.  Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.

I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.

Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all

^^^ Wow. And a hush falls over the crowd.

Alainaluvsu - Thank You.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 01:46:25 PM
True. I think what my point is, is that sometimes in explaining the why, maybe it might not come across as it adding up. There's always ways to make things sound believable, but you have to think of some things on the fly and that may lead to mistakes.

I think in time after you've been through this type of thing you learn by trial and error, but one time I was on the El and this one woman started talking to me and this other woman started talking to me and started talking about very female related stuff that nobody has ever said to me as a male and I just kinda winged it. I don't know how I came across but I got off a stop early to get out of the situation. Women talk to me out of the blue all the time now. And it's been happening for a couple months now but I'm sure I came across at the very least as a weirdo.

I mean there are just things you don't plan for. You really can't plan transition so I the one piece of advice I'd give is don't try. In January people where calling me ugly this and that and now it's all "you're so beautiful" or every man has a comment and wants to talk. This guy was pushing his baby the other day and literally asked e to come with hi and "get to know him." One guy the other day got really mad that I wouldn't talk to him cause I was outside smoking and he started following me around but luvkily my BF came out and that ended real fast, since he's pretty big. But, he's leaving, at the very least for the summer, and who knows if he'll even come back. So, right now, by June 1, I'll be all alone. I have no friends as I abandoned them all as I simply don't ant to associate with them anymore. It's not just transtioning, it was just time to move on. I joined this queer women's book club, which wil be a bit odd, since I really am not attracted to women, but at least they will understand my problems. The lesbian community in Philly is very, very trans friendly.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 03, 2014, 02:04:14 PM
I think in time after you've been through this type of thing you learn by trial and error, but one time I was on the El and this one woman started talking to me and this other woman started talking to me and started talking about very female related stuff that nobody has ever said to me as a male and I just kinda winged it. I don't know how I came across but I got off a stop early to get out of the situation. Women talk to me out of the blue all the time now. And it's been happening for a couple months now but I'm sure I came across at the very least as a weirdo.

I mean there are just things you don't plan for. You really can't plan transition so I the one piece of advice I'd give is don't try. In January people where calling me ugly this and that and now it's all "you're so beautiful" or every man has a comment and wants to talk. This guy was pushing his baby the other day and literally asked e to come with hi and "get to know him." One guy the other day got really mad that I wouldn't talk to him cause I was outside smoking and he started following me around but luvkily my BF came out and that ended real fast, since he's pretty big. But, he's leaving, at the very least for the summer, and who knows if he'll even come back. So, right now, by June 1, I'll be all alone. I have no friends as I abandoned them all as I simply don't ant to associate with them anymore. It's not just transtioning, it was just time to move on. I joined this queer women's book club, which wil be a bit odd, since I really am not attracted to women, but at least they will understand my problems. The lesbian community in Philly is very, very trans friendly.

I really hope you find some things you love about yourself so you can make the right decisions to go on. I always have you in my heart hon

But yeah, winging it does help. Sometimes it's simple, but at the same time it doesn't feel exactly genuine and that does cause dysphoria. For me at least. Personally, I've not had any serious issues with transition (and I am very, very lucky for that), but I can see plenty of opportunities to slip and how people do it. It's just one of those things...

Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 01:18:04 PM
LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding.  Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty.  Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female  society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand.  Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either.  Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours?

I think I conveyed what I meant poorly.  Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part.  They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 02:45:31 PM

Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 01:18:04 PM
LTL, I don't buy your comment about cis people not understanding.  Every cis woman in the world understands that pretty girls are more embraced in society than those who are not pretty.  Sheesh, it's the fundamental truth in female  society, not a trans issue that cis can't understand.  Just like most cis women aren't held up as beautiful, most trans women won't be either.  Some are, and yahoo for them, but it is not the reality for most cis women today, why should it need to be ours?

I think I conveyed what I meant poorly.  Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part.  They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.

Yeah, having to worry about being gendered female, let alone attractive adds another layer to it. Some cis women do have to deal with masculine features and misgendering. But the difference is that while it may hurt, they know they were born female. So, it may make them feel less attractive and less womanly, but not quite in the same way. Maybe that's the kind of thing to strive for - confidence in yourself as a woman so that being misgendered doesn't mean much.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 12:51:01 PM
I'd like to start by saying I absolutely respect your opinion and love a clean debate on any issue. I hope this can stay civil.


1) If you think that my post was about some ideal perception and the worry of being a "real girl", or any of that noise, you've mistaken what I've posted entirely. The fact is, in any given environment over a certain length of time, things are bound to slip up or slip out, a friend may mention something vague and someone may put something together. Voice, letting something slip about your past, responding to a male pronoun, these things can absolutely happen. Furthermore, you can be as naturally blending as far as self expression and confidence and blah blah blah as you can be, but if some feature sticks out and clocks you, well.. the only thing self expression and confidence is going to do for you is gain respect.

I know TONS of transgender people. In Louisiana, we (surprisingly) have a pretty strong coalition (both MtF and FtM). Not only that, but in my city, transgender people are very common to come across. I can tell you from being friends with so many that it is absolutely rare for MtFs to pass with extreme consistency given their stories and given what other cis people actually say when the topic comes up. It's not just confidence and self esteem. You think Gigi on Youtube passes with any consistency? Anybody who's been exposed to gay men in their lives would be able to tell that she's transgender. That's not a physical appearance issue, it's an intangible quality of the difference between men and women. People probably don't give her crap because she does display self confidence. That is a huge shield and is the difference between being respected and being called derogatory names.


2) You're right, stressing things you can't change wont help you pass. Self esteem will HELP you pass, but it's not going to make a difference if somebody notices due to a physical or personality trait. Plenty of cis gender women are NEVER believed to be transgender simply because they lack self esteem. I would argue 99% of the ones with self esteem issues aren't ever mistaken for transgender. Being comfortable (or more so than before) is the point in transitioning, it is not a end all be all of passing. Frankly, it just sounds like some people would like to say they pass, so they label self esteem as passing. And as far as being normal, honey... where I live you have to be a little off and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the USA!

3) The problem is, most females want to socialize more than most men do. This is well documented in psychology and I can totally attest to this. I'd like to believe that it's no different in the MtF community since we have a lot of similarities with our cis gender counterparts when it comes to how our brain operates. At least I do! Do I lie? Not really. But I sure as hell manipulate the truth.  Why don't I get periods? Because something in my central nervous system (my brain) doesn't recognize that I have ovaries. This forces me to take HRT, too. Is that a lie? No, it's not. But do I wish I could be fully honest and just be a cis gender female? Uh yeah... and that does tend to lead to dysphoria. I don't lie about being a tomboy growing up, and I am very honest with what I watched as a kid. It still causes dysphoria because when I reflect on it, I wish I didn't feel pressured as a child to watch that stuff. I really wanted to play with barbies and watch care bears when I was 6, and I feel robbed because of it! It's an absolute factor in a lot of things dysphoria related, and it makes me not even want to talk about what I did growing up because I wanted to be something else. And hey, I like being a little off. New Orleans wouldn't be worth living in if there weren't any weirdos here I take total pride in that. But these factors do not really address passing.

I still stand by my opinion that passing is not completely equal to self esteem. Yes, both of them help each other... I agree with that completely. I know I am seen as cis gender most of the time. I worked in a place for 8 months where people made fun of my transgender roommate and still couldn't put together that I'm transgender myself. Hell, my doctor thought I was FtM when she was seeing me at first. But I wouldn't doubt that a couple people here and there when I'm out in the real world do clock me... they just respect me because I carry myself well. Does that mean I'm passing during that time? Apparently not! But in my experience, knowing as many transgender people as I know (4 of us live on my block and dozens of us attend regular meetings) and hearing their stories and seeing them in person, these are my conclusions.

Again, with great respect and hoping the easiest life for us all

I'm so bummed, I typed a long and respectful (I thought) response and somehow the board dropped it instead of posting it.  now I am not so inspired as the comments about hush falling over the room lead me to believe I am way off base here and/or that somehow our conversation seems confrontational.  My net of that lost post is:
1) I hold only the best intentions for you, and only post because I want to help the OP with a legit question.  I never considered what you said in your first sentence, I was talking in general about your specific points, for the most part.
2) Female expression is broader than you give credit for, there are cis women getting mis-gendered out there now.  For every trait you feel clocks you I can show you a cis girl with the exact same trait.
3) living in a mindset where you can't pass unless you always pass would be hell, I refuse to hold any of us to that impossible standard.  So maybe you would pass 100% if you lived stealth and in a place less 'flamboyant' than NOLA, and away from other trans women.  Not that you want to, just saying that may be a better place to judge pass rates.
5) I really don't care what others think of my parts or expression, I do it to please me, not them.
6) Will passing 1 time be enough validation?  Will passing a million times be enough?
7) How do the people I see in every day life know I have self esteem, or confidence, when they pass me all the time?  They can't know, so it can't be why they don't sir me or do anything to threaten me.  I am not a small fem girl either, so if I can do it you should be able to do it 100x better.
8. women get rated, ranked, scored 1-5, called butters, dogs, pigs, whores, c's, bitches and a whole lot worse.  You and I get to add ->-bleeped-<- to the list but 99% of male attention is going to be the same degrading commentary on our looks as cis women see daily.  Be prepared to have your looks define you the minute you start presenting as female.  It won't stop until you die.

With love and respect and sincere hope

Quote from: learningtolive on May 03, 2014, 02:45:31 PM
I think I conveyed what I meant poorly.  Cis women go through a lot with beauty standards and it impacts them, maybe even more than us given their early socialization; however, they will always pass as female for the most part.  They usually don't have to worry about being gendered male and may not fully understand what passing as a transwoman may be like as that usually isn't an issue form them but is almost always one for us.

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.  I think that your worries here have merit, but the truth is I've watched my partner get sirred and she's cis.  It comes down to whether that should shake her confidence or make her feel bad, but since she has none of our baggage about how we look, she ignores it.  It never defines her, and so why should it define us?  Are we somehow deceiving people or living a lie, or are we correcting a medical issue and living our life as healthy as possible?  I prefer the later over the thought that I am an undercover man trying to 'pass'.  Those feelings did exist for me in transition, the fear went away after SRS, and I haven't thought like that since.

For those who didn't notice it, one of the ladies in the videos I posted earlier is transgender but if you listen to the voices, you could easily imagine two of them are. All of that to say that yes, our own conviction that we are women really does make a huge difference.

Quite obviously, a genetic female who has been socialized as a woman from the day she was born knows from the inside out that she is a woman so no matter how masculine her voice, her appearance  or whatever, barring other issues and as FA already said, she will never have any doubt about her identity as a woman.

It is definitely a lot harder for a trans woman because, before all else, we have to get over our own doubts about our intrinsic identity. Being perceived by others as a woman clearly helps massively but at the end of the day, no matter what the means required, the standard any of has to achieve pretty can be pretty well boiled down to developing the same inner conviction about our gender identity as the  genetic female who was socialized as a woman from the outset. Once you have that, what other people think starts to matter a hell of a lot less.

Believe it or not, even as a late transitioner, 6' tall, with big hands I can do nothing about and a voice that is still far from perfect (but still probably more feminine than Dillie Keane the oldest of the three ladies in the videos...) , I am already getting very close to that level of conviction. In my own case I did need FFS to get there but that was pretty well it. That was enough to tilt the scales enough for me to feel comfortable enough with myself to make the switch publicly. Now,  I no longer really care what people think and when I am misgendered on the tel, still a problem,  I just politely correct the person at the other end of line.

End of the day though, the answer to the excellent question raised by the O.P. is down to each and every one of us, based on our own image of what being a woman means.