Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 03:17:41 PM
I'm so bummed, I typed a long and respectful (I thought) response and somehow the board dropped it instead of posting it.  now I am not so inspired as the comments about hush falling over the room lead me to believe I am way off base here and/or that somehow our conversation seems confrontational.  My net of that lost post is:
1) I hold only the best intentions for you, and only post because I want to help the OP with a legit question.  I never considered what you said in your first sentence, I was talking in general about your specific points, for the most part.
2) Female expression is broader than you give credit for, there are cis women getting mis-gendered out there now.  For every trait you feel clocks you I can show you a cis girl with the exact same trait.
3) living in a mindset where you can't pass unless you always pass would be hell, I refuse to hold any of us to that impossible standard.  So maybe you would pass 100% if you lived stealth and in a place less 'flamboyant' than NOLA, and away from other trans women.  Not that you want to, just saying that may be a better place to judge pass rates.
5) I really don't care what others think of my parts or expression, I do it to please me, not them.
6) Will passing 1 time be enough validation?  Will passing a million times be enough?
7) How do the people I see in every day life know I have self esteem, or confidence, when they pass me all the time?  They can't know, so it can't be why they don't sir me or do anything to threaten me.  I am not a small fem girl either, so if I can do it you should be able to do it 100x better.
8. women get rated, ranked, scored 1-5, called butters, dogs, pigs, whores, c's, bitches and a whole lot worse.  You and I get to add ->-bleeped-<- to the list but 99% of male attention is going to be the same degrading commentary on our looks as cis women see daily.  Be prepared to have your looks define you the minute you start presenting as female.  It won't stop until you die.

With love and respect and sincere hope

I'm not sure if you're making much of this about me. I'm fine with passing 99% of the time. I'm grateful, to that extent. It's more than any transgender person I personally know. But that doesn't mean I pass just because I am confident. Those two words have exclusive meaning.  Sure there are cis gender women that are mistaken for being transgender or even as male, but they're very few and far between (and I'm sure some of them feel awful for it, too). That doesn't mean that trans women who are clocked x amount of times passes.

I stated it's ridiculously rare for transgender women to pass with extreme consistency. That is a fact that we're all going to have to live with. I've gone to transgender meetings and have spurred shocked reactions when I state that I'm transgender. People literally took me for being an ally. Gender therapists have come to me at these meetings and have told me that they don't see how anybody could ever see me as anything but cis gender, and I'm one of the extremely lucky MtFs that they can say that about. But I probably don't pass with 100% consistency. Therefore, in most situations, yes, I do pass. A rare sometimes, maybe I don't. But when I don't, it has nothing to do with my confidence level. It's because somebody recognized something(s) masculine and put things together. One of my transgender friends is in the same boat as me. I clocked her not knowing a thing about her just because her forearms had a certain build and length to them... something NONE Of us really consider if they aren't muscular or overly hairy (and hers weren't). This also backs up my claim that it's extremely rare for us to pass 100% of the time.

And that's what I'm getting at. Just believing you pass doesn't mean you do. It means you're confident. People can be overly confident. I definitely have  confidence in myself. I have a zillion stories to show that I shouldn't think any other way. But what I'm saying is based on my experiences with others, for the most part. Going into meetings and hearing stories, having best friends who are trans, listening to the cis community talk about transgender people, things like that.

You can definitely be seen as transgender but respected as your preferred gender, even by people who normally do not recognize things that way. For the most part, people are respectful. And for the rest, most of the people who are not are afraid of people who are self confident. So by their silence, it's possible that one can falsely (in my opinion) see that self confidence does equal passing, but in reality it only gains respect. Everybody respects self confidence (as long as it's not arrogantly displayed). Do you think people start calling me by male pronouns when they find out that I'm trans? Hell no. I'm not a victim, a sub-ordinate, or a prey.

I guess in conclusion, it's not likely you'll pass 100% of the time, so stop expecting to. Don't even set yourself up with the expectation and belief that you do. That expectation / belief is going to rock your mental health if you are ever sir'd or he'd or whatever. Just be yourself and rock it, it's all you can do.

And the footnote in your post: you're right. Women are a backdrop for vanity in this society. It's a shame that it is 80% of what can get us ahead. Men can be disgustingly disrespectful to that extent and it's frustrating to endure. Thanks society, for making it THAT much harder to get ahead for us transgender women. But in reality, those same rude ass men will still date the women they call butters. They act that way because they want to be funny with their friends, and I guess their idea of male bonding (those immature enough to partake in these social behaviors) is to just be mean. Sometimes the best way to handle seeing that is to either just shrug it off or roll with it and joke back. Don't let their nonsense effect you. Remember that at least half of the population is going through the same garbage that you are.

As far as the periods thing... I tell people I'm in surgical menopause. It's 100% true, conveys all the information most people (even the majority of medical professionals) needs to know including that I'm on HRT*, and doesn't get into precisely *which* gonads were removed to achieve that state. And I had enough months of using pads, etc. post-op to be able to talk knowledgeably about the experience, the worries about needing to change in a public bathroom, the leak through the pants, various sanitary napkin types/brands, and so on. OK, so I never had cramps; some cis women don't, and I just get "lucky!" and they move on.

(Sharing in case anyone else wants to borrow this technique.)


*I am fortunate, I admit, in that my HRT dosages are within the typical menopausal cis female range. But there are cis women on higher than typical doses, too.

The standard I need to achieve is simply being happy.  I will keep taking the next step until I am content with my body.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on May 03, 2014, 04:32:46 PM
As far as the periods thing... I tell people I'm in surgical menopause. It's 100% true, conveys all the information most people (even the majority of medical professionals) needs to know including that I'm on HRT*, and doesn't get into precisely *which* gonads were removed to achieve that state. And I had enough months of using pads, etc. post-op to be able to talk knowledgeably about the experience, the worries about needing to change in a public bathroom, the leak through the pants, various sanitary napkin types/brands, and so on. OK, so I never had cramps; some cis women don't, and I just get "lucky!" and they move on.

(Sharing in case anyone else wants to borrow this technique.)


*I am fortunate, I admit, in that my HRT dosages are within the typical menopausal cis female range. But there are cis women on higher than typical doses, too.

When asked about periods, I say the same as you.  I also list my surgery on medical forms as complete hysterectomy including ovaries.  If doctors ask about pap smears I say I don't have a cervix anymore.  This has always been enough.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 04:21:43 PM
I'm not sure if you're making much of this about me.
I'm responding to you so it is related to your views, but I don't intend to make it about you as a person. if that isn't clear, I am sorry, I'll try to keep it less specific.

I stated it's ridiculously rare for transgender women to pass with extreme consistency. That is a fact that we're all going to have to live with.

I think this speaks to the impossibility of passing, and is not the reality many of us face, which is that we pass all the time except on the phone where a polite, I'm a woman, can easily correct the misunderstanding. 

And that's what I'm getting at. Just believing you pass doesn't mean you do. It means you're confident. People can be overly confident. I definitely have  confidence in myself. I have a zillion stories to show that I shouldn't think any other way. But what I'm saying is based on my experiences with others, for the most part. Going into meetings and hearing stories, having best friends who are trans, listening to the cis community talk about transgender people, things like that.

That speaks to you, not everyone.  Just believing in the face of continual comments to the contrary is of course ridiculous, but to hear that my experience of not ever getting clocked to my face means I am just being clocked behind my back is impossible to defend. We can define passing any way we want but since we can't prove a negative, it is a moot point.

You can definitely be seen as transgender but respected as your preferred gender, even by people who normally do not recognize things that way. For the most part, people are respectful. And for the rest, most of the people who are not are afraid of people who are self confident. So by their silence, it's possible that one can falsely (in my opinion) see that self confidence does equal passing, but in reality it only gains respect. Everybody respects self confidence (as long as it's not arrogantly displayed). Do you think people start calling me by male pronouns when they find out that I'm trans? Hell no. I'm not a victim, a sub-ordinate, or a prey.

You're a strong woman, I don't think I could be out as trans to everyone, it would be hard.  I'm always aspiring and moving forward, never held captive to my past self or past mistakes.  Learn and move on!  I am glad you get the correct pronouns, it would probably be harder yet

I guess in conclusion, it's not likely you'll pass 100% of the time, so stop expecting to. Don't even set yourself up with the expectation and belief that you do. That expectation / belief is going to rock your mental health if you are ever sir'd or he'd or whatever. Just be yourself and rock it, it's all you can do.

I think 99% passing is a more realistic number and maybe 80% before surgery... after SRS the number goes up.  I totally agree to rock it and be yourself, and be strong mentally because a he or sir should never derail your dreams.

And the footnote in your post: you're right. Women are a backdrop for vanity in this society. It's a shame that it is 80% of what can get us ahead. Men can be disgustingly disrespectful to that extent and it's frustrating to endure. Thanks society, for making it THAT much harder to get ahead for us transgender women. But in reality, those same rude ass men will still date the women they call butters. They act that way because they want to be funny with their friends, and I guess their idea of male bonding (those immature enough to partake in these social behaviors) is to just be mean. Sometimes the best way to handle seeing that is to either just shrug it off or roll with it and joke back. Don't let their nonsense effect you. Remember that at least half of the population is going through the same garbage that you are.

I had a great time in bed with my first man.  He kept saying something in Spanish that I later found out meant f'ing blonde or white (I'm going to assume blonde) I just couldn't ever trust him after I found out, and I never had time to find out how other men were before I met my wife.  He wasn't hating me he was just 'being a guy' and begged to get me back, but I just can't feel safe with someone who has so much anger in them they use it in bed.  I envy your ability to roll with it, I couldn't.

Good discussion, it seems unlikely we'll change each other's minds about this.  I wish you the best!

Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 05:52:36 PM
Good discussion, it seems unlikely we'll change each other's minds about this.  I wish you the best!

Back at ya hon.

Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..

I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.

Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..

I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.

Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.

I agree. I mean, obviously you need a lot more than confidence to pass. A cis woman isn't going to be misgendered due to confidence. I think where confidence comes in is that the lack of it can cause further scrutiny. If you look like you don't think you belong or you're nervous about being read, people can pick up on that. And look closer. If you act like you belong like any other woman, people are less likely to scrutinize. But obviously, you have to be somewhat passable for this to make a difference.

I know it's not quite the same, but people are used to seeing all kinds of women. It's not that uncommon to see a large woman, tall woman, one with a mustache, deep voice, or other masculine traits. Especially for menopausal women.

I'd add that it's not just confidence as a general trait, but confidence in yourself as a woman. A woman can have low self esteem, but still no doubt that she's a woman and that other people recognize her as such. It's like going to a party as a nerd with all the cool kids. You've got to act like you belong there. Like you're no different and have just as much right to be there.

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..

I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.

Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.

I'm baby stepping my way to full time. I'm on my 7th month of HRT. Things are going alright I still dress in guy clothes even though I don't have much left any more and my proper clothing is getting more abundant. I don't expect not to be sired , but wow , each day longer and the pain of that word thrown at me is getting so hard to deal with.

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 07:02:00 PM
Just a quick comment about confidence. self esteem and passing..

I don't think confidence on it's own makes you pass.. But looks on their own also won't give you a pass. It seems that a combo of looks, self esteem and confidence are key.

Self esteem and confidence also are a big help in those moments some will call you 'Sir.'.

I totally agree, Kelly. Everybody gets misgendered, even cis gender people. For example, once I was filling in for the receptionist at my job. A lady came and checked in, then a guy came in 5 minutes behind her. He's cis gender (for all I know...) and I accidentally called him ma'am. I quickly apologized and called him sir, and was embarrassed. I've actually done this a number of times (the medication I'm on makes me an airhead sometimes). Never has anybody shown to have taken any offense in their body language for the second or so between misgendering them and correcting myself. I'm sure many of us would die inside for that second or so if that happened to us. But I know if it happens to me, not to let it affect me unless they keep doing it, because cis people know who they are.

If you physically do not pass, then well, you just do not pass and it doesn't matter how you carry yourself. If you're biting your nails over every issue that involves gender, people will figure you out even if you are beautiful. But all things considered, I think having no fingernails is unhealthy so I guess my advice is to just not worry about it so much

Quote from: stephaniec on May 03, 2014, 07:36:36 PM
I'm baby stepping my way to full time. I'm on my 7th month of HRT. Things are going alright I still dress in guy clothes even though I don't have much left any more and my proper clothing is getting more abundant. I don't expect not to be sired , but wow , each day longer and the pain of that word thrown at me is getting so hard to deal with.

During my 5th month was the first time I ever was gendered as female. Then during the 6th month it happened more than a couple times (maybe once or twice a week). My 7th month I went part time, and was still gendered as male most of the time. By my 8th month I found it smarter to go full time because unless I had facial hair I was not getting gendered as male about 80% of the time (it was usually either confusion or female). Honestly I miss those days a little. I had nothing to worry about and a feeling like it didn't matter because I was still living as a guy, and being gendered as female was just a bonus and made me smile so much inside.

But the real swing for everything didn't happen til about month 16 or so. Yes, I was passing pretty consistently before then, but around that time was when the results really started to look significant to myself.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 07:50:01 PM
During my 5th month was the first time I ever was gendered as female. Then during the 6th month it happened more than a couple times (maybe once or twice a week). My 7th month I went part time, and was still gendered as male most of the time. By my 8th month I found it smarter to go full time because unless I had facial hair I was not getting gendered as male about 80% of the time (it was usually either confusion or female). Honestly I miss those days a little. I had nothing to worry about and a feeling like it didn't matter because I was still living as a guy, and being gendered as female was just a bonus and made me smile so much inside.

But the real swing for everything didn't happen til about month 16 or so. Yes, I was passing pretty consistently before then, but around that time was when the results really started to look significant to myself.

I see how you look now, If I can get close to that I'd definitely be in heaven.

Aww.. thanks

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
I totally agree, Kelly. Everybody gets misgendered, even cis gender people. For example, once I was filling in for the receptionist at my job. A lady came and checked in, then a guy came in 5 minutes behind her. He's cis gender (for all I know...) and I accidentally called him ma'am. I quickly apologized and called him sir, and was embarrassed. I've actually done this a number of times (the medication I'm on makes me an airhead sometimes). Never has anybody shown to have taken any offense in their body language for the second or so between misgendering them and correcting myself. I'm sure many of us would die inside for that second or so if that happened to us. But I know if it happens to me, not to let it affect me unless they keep doing it, because cis people know who they are.

My reaction to being misgendered is a raised eyebrow..

QuoteIf you physically do not pass, then well, you just do not pass and it doesn't matter how you carry yourself. If you're biting your nails over every issue that involves gender, people will figure you out even if you are beautiful. But all things considered, I think having no fingernails is unhealthy so I guess my advice is to just not worry about it so much

There's a bunch of women around here who would do well to take heed of this..

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 03, 2014, 08:10:26 PM
My reaction to being misgendered is a raised eyebrow..

Mine is usually followed by an apology from them before I can even react.. but if it ever happened I'd probably just wait for them to do it again and say "I'm female, by the way" and look at them like they've gotta be joking.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 03, 2014, 09:22:27 PM
Mine is usually followed by an apology from them before I can even react.. but if it ever happened I'd probably just wait for them to do it again and say "I'm female, by the way" and look at them like they've gotta be joking.

I should have mentioned the incredulous look that goes with the eyebrow.. lol

I also think the passing worries are way overblown.

Because there is indeed a zone between simple "passing as female" and the "passing completely as a cis woman, nobody would believe that you're trans" which Alaina is talking about. There's a critical line where, even if lots of people suspect that you're trans, nobody is going to gender you male, and nobody is going to really care, because your overall femaleness is so obvious. Basically a point at which 90% or more of people aren't even going to give you a second look, and just accept you as a woman. And from my experience, LOTS of trans-women make it at least that far.

I'm kind of at an interesting phase myself, where I can still see TONS of glaringly-obvious male features on myself, and every trans person I've asked about my appearance has said "yeah, you do pass as female, but you still look trans, and you're probably not going to be able to interview for jobs without that trans status being obvious." And for God's sake, I'm 6'2" tall, large-built, have disproportionately-small boobs, wide shoulders, and very little butt. And yet I haven't been gendered male for two months straight, not a single person gives me so much as a second look when using the women's room, and I'm consistently getting stories worthy of the "you know you pass when" topic, where people can't even put two and two together after seeing that I'm in their database under a male name. Again, no, I know I don't pass as cis. Everyone I've asked has told me so. But apparently nobody cares, and my life is basically able to go on completely 100% normal, with my gender identity never being an issue with anyone. So with that in mind, does it really matter? I really think there's a critical line that many cross where being more able to pass as cis really wouldn't lead to any significant improvement in their well-being, quality of life, or ability to just live as themselves without running into any problems.

Carrie: That's pretty much what I was getting at. Thank you for the anecdote.

I found that how much I worried was never linked to how much I passed. As far as I know I never haven't passed as a girl in the last couple years. But there was a time when I worried constantly about it. About the time I stopped caring totally was when I decided I'd rather identify as a boy. Of course that was also the point when my face had become really neotonous so not much I can do anyway. I still only pass as a cis girl but it is refreshing to not care either way. I don't really bother answering weird questions about my past if they come up, and people get that it doesn't matter. They're just looking for smth to talk about and will assume whatever makes sense to them anyway. Even if all the facts are pointing somewhere.

I think if your body is the right size, you do get to a point where you'd be basically impossible to clock. If I didn't know I had a penis it would trip me up to find out. And even before I had the advantage of HRT, I just don't think people were or ever would have been comfortably able to to clock me. It does take a certain threshold of suspicion to be able to. No weird details about me can really take away from that, so I have the advantage of at least blending in while I figure myself out, though yeah, I have stopped caring. People exclusively see female but I've stopped letting it define me at all. Females can be whatever. It is really not worth it, there's so much more interesting stuff abt a person than their gender.

Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 02:27:47 AM
I think if your body is the right size, you do get to a point where you'd be basically impossible to clock. If I didn't know I had a penis it would trip me up to find out. And even before I had the advantage of HRT, I just don't think people were or ever would have been comfortably able to to clock me. It does take a certain threshold of suspicion to be able to. No weird details about me can really take away from that, so I have the advantage of at least blending in while I figure myself out, though yeah, I have stopped caring. People exclusively see female but I've stopped letting it define me at all. Females can be whatever. It is really not worth it, there's so much more interesting stuff abt a person than their gender.

As I've scrolled and read through this thread I've had a lot of emotions come to the surface. I've cried reading through much of it for the more I read, I felt almost like an outsider for the very first time since I've been a member here on Susan's. At least, in as far as the "passing" issue is concerned. The words above however have given me some comfort so Sad Panda, I thank you for them. I literally around 5 years ago even before hrt found it impossible for me to pass as male anymore. It's as if my body made the decision to go full time for me, yet I'd look at my face in the mirror and be so baffled why this had happened because to me I couldn't see it. I couldn't see what other people were seeing and during this early time for about 6 months I was so frightened and lived in fear some kind of cruel joke was being played on me, and I was in for a huge letdown. This probably sounds silly to all of you. And believe me even now 5 years later 4 months into my hrt and full transition this is still so hard for me to explain. Also I apologize if I'm off topic a little.

After around 6 months of living on pins and needles only leaving the house when I had to I slowly began to consider this a blessing, and though I already had a wardrobe that was about half & half, I boxed up every bit of male clothing I had and gave it to Goodwill some of it still with the tags on it, which I replaced with all female clothing. I've always been tiny (5-5, around 120) with a very slight bone structure, and long legged, short in the torso with narrow shoulders all my life. And also of course my being xxy (Klinefelter's) is the only thing I can think of to explain all of this. These days after being on hrt for 4 months I pass very easily and I myself feel facewise I look so much better than I did those years ago.

While reading your posts throughout this thread many of tears of sadness were mixed with those of realization that I must be very lucky to be able to pass so easily. That being said, I feel I really haven't understood until now what some of my sisters have to go through to achieve something that for me happens so easily..............  I'm sorry I have to stop here. This has hit me like a ton of bricks. Again, I apologize to all of you and the OP if I've went off topic.

Ally