i hate being misgendered over the phone as well .. ugh .. it sucks 

Quote from: anjaq on May 11, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
Saskia, 27 years must almost be the record except for Eva. You even did FFS? Why that, too, if you really are living stealth and only had the voice issues on the phone mostly? Was it that you just were not happy with your face when you saw yourself? I read a few reports from FFS people about the nerve damages they have and I am scared away from that, but up to now most VFS with Dr Kim seem to go well, so its an option for similar reasons - not ever being misgendered or questioned about being trans again for voice reasons. I am not sure it can provide that result for me or if it is needed to get there but I do still consider it. I would however also be happy if I could hear from you, Saskia about how it will be for you and how it does feel and compare to before. Not so much about what other people hear or say about it but how it is for yourself - what changes iin the way you can and have to use the voice and how does it feel like. I keep imagining that it is just easier to reach a higher pitch later and that the low pitch is blocked and that for some magic reason the average speaking pitch is subconsciously raised as well - ideally one does not have to use as much pitch and resonance control later... lots of things I would hope for. So I hope you will write a bit about how things change for you, Saskia, as well

Hi Anjaq - I went for FFS a few years back as I hated looking in the mirror and seeing what I considered to be a male face staring back, even though, again I was fine 99.9% of the time sometimes I felt someone had clocked me. Maybe it was my imagination or confidence at a low level.
So I decided to do something about it. Dr Zukowski was doing a visit to my town and I went along. I liked what I heard and 4 months later I had it done. I told my work colleagues and friends I was having a face lift to keep my secret a secret. The FFS worked wonderfully for me and I'm very happy with Dr Z's work. Now my confidence is 100% and I've had no nerve damage or any other issues and never even consider that I've been clocked.
I'm in the only speaking a couple of words per day phase of the recovery, but for those few words I have spoken, my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does. I've seen the post op photos after the final inspection at Yeson and can see the assymetry is gone and the folds are closing properly. I'm hopeful for a good final outcome. I will write about the changes and if I can pluck up the courage post up some samples. If you have other questions you can drop me a PM.

Best wishes
Saskia

Hi Saskia- I would say that some post surgical anxiety ~feeling like the voice is "not much different"~ is completely normal and almost to be expected. Keep in mind that you will have to retrain your brain to use the higher pitches once they are available. Part of the reason it might seem similar now is because your upper range is practically nonexistent until month 3 or 4. Until then, you'll be limited to the lowest register of your new voice- possibly even lower if there is swelling (this makes the vocal cords heavier and lower pitched).

The less you talk, the faster that swelling will go away to reveal the upper range. Sit tight and take it easy, it won't be long and you will notice your new voice kind of fluffs up to the higher pitches. You will have to be active and aware for this to happen, because you still have to retrain your brain to adjust to the new range. Try not to get used to talking in the low voice you may find early in recovery... you will realize that is the absolute bottom end of your new voice

I also transitioned in my twenties (28), and I'm 45 now. At the time in the late 90s I was by far the youngest person I knew going through this. I think it would have been really fun if we'd all known each other back then! I certainly felt I missed out not knowing anyone else in my age group - having to deal with rather different issues from the older ones.

Quote from: anjaq on May 10, 2014, 07:23:08 PM

I totally get that. This is what I think too. so many people say "you can do it with therapy alone, I did it and I had such a male voice. Then they play it and it is like 140 Hz or so. Add 40 to that and you are in female vocal range by a good margin. Mine is almost exactly like yours then, 100-110 Hz. I can manage to get the same change like others - +40 Hz. End up talking at 140-150 Hz if I do what I can do.  This is still in the male range and below the lower female range. My dream would be to be at 180 or so without having to strain my voice. So I think physiology is really working against me and in favour of some people that say it can all be done easily with therapy.

Yes, absolutely. I think what happens is people hear their resonance and confuse it with pitch and say "I had such a low voice" without actually confirming it on Praat.
I'm not sure if I have the courage to post my voice samples publicly, but I'm happy to answer any questions if I can.

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 02:12:29 AM
I am 27 years post op, and have lived more than half my my life as female. My voice was 95% OK, however I occasionally got misgendered on the phone which was a huge blow and felt like a dagger through the heart. I guess I could've managed without the VFS since my pitch is 165Hz. But after hearing Jenny and Sarah decided this was something I definately wanted to do. I retrained my voice after transition by copying my female colleagues at work and by using my head voice. This worked really well, for many years and I thought that it was the best I could do until I discovered VFS. My partner and family were dead against me going but I'm so glad I went ahead. I too thought I'd finished with surgeries but I was drawn back in. I've promised everyone thats it now. I'm stealth too and had to invent reasons why my face was going to change (FFS) and why my voice might go higher as the months pass by.
If I can achieve the 75hz extra suggested by Dr Kim, I'll be ecstatic, but my goal is to never ever get misgendered again because of my voice.

My best wishes to all those girls who are going to Yesons.
Saskia

Hi Saskia,
Thank you for your good wishes! I can completely relate to the dagger in the heart feeling. I can't really explain why it hurts so much - perhaps even more now than it used to.
I wonder if after FFS you noticed any subtle changes in the way people relate to you? This would be the reason if I do anything further to my face. For me my hairline usually results in hairdressers clocking me (maybe their 'gaydar' is better?) which depending on how professional they are can range from the very subtle to the  overt. I'm also limited to rather rigid hairstyles, and am always conscious to keep my hair in position. So although having  surgery would make life less bothersome I wonder how much it would alter peoples reactions to me (which are good but I feel could be better).

Hugs

Charlotte

Quote from: Saskia on May 09, 2014, 10:59:26 AM
Also the KFC (Korean Fried Chicken) is wonderful.

Saskia,

It is the same branch of Kentucky Fried Chicken, although the recipes can be a little bit different and localized. My kids like fried chicken too much, but I warn them not to eat frequently, because it contains a lot of unhealthy fat. Adults here tend to enjoy traditionally boiled chicken, especially in summer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samgyetang . It is not so much spicy, and more healthy. I especially like hot noddle with boiled chicken, and I eat at least twice per week for lunch. My favorite chicken noodle:



Virtually all kinds of food around the world are available in Seoul, but it will take at least several months to find out your favorites. Always be careful to any food in red. Also, avoid green pepper and uncooked garlic, which are virtually ubiquitous in Korean restaurants. Even to my tongue, they are too much spicy.

barbie~~

Hi Barbie - Regarding KFC, i meant the real Korean double Fried Chicken (not the US chain), in small family owned restaurants or cafes. We had a really nice one round the corner from our hotel in Jongno district. We ended up going there 3 times it was so good.

Hi Charlotte - If you hate your hairline and you have some spare money, you might consider having hair transplants to fill in the M shape. I had mine done with Dr Z's team in Chicago. They made a great job and my hairline issue is now history. Regarding subtle changes after FFS, thats a difficult one. The changes were more than subtle. I'd already told work colleagues I was having a face lift so they expected some differences. It was an amazing transformation and made such a massive change to my confidence levels.

Hi Jenny - Thanks for that useful information. I'm very impatient, but am trying to do everything I was told to do by Dr Kim

Best wishes
Saskia

Hi, Saskia, Charlotte, Jenny

Quote from: Charlotte on May 11, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
I also transitioned in my twenties (28), and I'm 45 now. At the time in the late 90s I was by far the youngest person I knew going through this. I think it would have been really fun if we'd all known each other back then!
I certainly felt I missed out not knowing anyone else in my age group - having to deal with rather different issues from the older ones.

Indeed!
I was so tired of people descirbing the issues with career and marriage and all of that plus different issues regarding "passing". Plus they kept claiming that I should have no problems due to my age. they were envious like hell and let me feel it. If I mentioned not "passing" in some situations, they claimed I should start to wear skirts and makeup - which I did not really want to do. I was a girl no matter what clothes and did not want to rely on these things - ah well That was then in the 1990ies. Funny that you basically have a similar age and transition timeline then as me and now also experience a bit of a "transition reloaded" by re visiting some of the issues that just dug in over the years.
For me it is mainly three things - my body shape still is bad, in part due to some level of obesity, my face still looks "male" to me in some hours and on some days, my voice sounds too male to me. I think  only the latter one is what really gets me in trouble with others, but both other aspects play a role as well, so I have a priority list of things to do in transition 2.0 to finally get rid of that nagging feeling that followed me over the years.

QuoteYes, absolutely. I think what happens is people hear their resonance and confuse it with pitch and say "I had such a low voice" without actually confirming it on Praat.
I'm not sure if I have the courage to post my voice samples publicly, but I'm happy to answer any questions if I can.

Indeed. I was sent some voice samples like "look, that woman has such a deep voice but she is definitely a woman (cis) and it sounds like that too". Loaded them in praat and they were at like 170 Hz. Which is basically what I would like to aim at - So yeah - I would be ok with a voice like that but mine actually IS deeper. Also of course yes people confuse resonance with pitch and just have a very resonant male-ish voice before and then take that as "I had suuuuch a deep voice". then it turns out they were at 140 Hz or so. That is like 30 Hz higher than my original voice and thus half a VFS away already

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 11, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
Keep in mind that you will have to retrain your brain to use the higher pitches once they are available.

I dont quite understand - the upper range was there before VFS as well, wasn't it? I mean my vocal range now if I sing is up in the 800+ Hz range - no way I want to talk there - But the new speaking range at 180-240 Hz is well within my current possibilities, so they are theoretically "available" now already, if I could "Train my brain to use it"?? So I do not wuite understand this comment. I am sure you meant it differently.

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 07:47:56 AM
Hi Anjaq - I went for FFS a few years back as I hated looking in the mirror and seeing what I considered to be a male face staring back, even though, again I was fine 99.9% of the time sometimes I felt someone had clocked me. Maybe it was my imagination or confidence at a low level.
So I decided to do something about it. Dr Zukowski was doing a visit to my town and I went along. I liked what I heard and 4 months later I had it done. I told my work colleagues and friends I was having a face lift to keep my secret a secret. The FFS worked wonderfully for me and I'm very happy with Dr Z's work. Now my confidence is 100% and I've had no nerve damage or any other issues and never even consider that I've been clocked.

Interesting. You are lucky that you are such a fast decision maker - I am carrying that though for very much the same reasons with me now already for half a year. I mostly see my own face as "it has male traits in it", while others claim there are none. Maybe this is a stupid reason for a FFS I think then, as obviously it is a mental problem and not a physical one and maybe it cannot be corrected by surgery? But in your case it worked, obviously. Did you have a lot done? I read like 10 reports about nerve damage lately , though that was from Dr van Veen in Belgium, so maybe his procedures who are known to be very radical changes are a bit more risky as well. Good to hear that it improved your confidence so much.

QuoteI'm in the only speaking a couple of words per day phase of the recovery, but for those few words I have spoken, my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does. I've seen the post op photos after the final inspection at Yeson and can see the assymetry is gone and the folds are closing properly. I'm hopeful for a good final outcome. I will write about the changes and if I can pluck up the courage post up some samples. If you have other questions you can drop me a PM.

I think I may get back to that offer - interesting also how many people have asymmetry - I wonder if it is a result of long term speaking in a femme voice. I have it too.

Greetings

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 07:47:56 AM
my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does.

+1 I've been speaking for some days now, and at times it feels like my words sounds very similar to before, just a lot weaker.  Yes I can talk in a head voice to raise it, but my volume becomes so small when I do, others can't really hear me at all and words just cut out.   The biggest kick in the teeth, is being taken my people calling in at work, taking me as....male ("is that ......?" - a male manager in my work place).  It was extremely extremely depressing when it happened to me on Friday and has just happened again and feels much much worse than any time before traveling out to Korea.  I know my voice is "upped" a little I guess, I just hope my voice does indeed gets stronger and becomes higher by itself soon, as Dr Kim said I'll only need to talk with my chest to get the result needed, and that certainly isn't happening now.  very despressed right now, but sadly I have to answer phone and speak at work right now, so can't stay silent

Quote from: anjaq on May 11, 2014, 03:46:23 PM
Indeed!
I was so tired of people descirbing the issues with career and marriage and all of that plus different issues regarding "passing". Plus they kept claiming that I should have no problems due to my age. they were envious like hell and let me feel it. If I mentioned not "passing" in some situations, they claimed I should start to wear skirts and makeup - which I did not really want to do. I was a girl no matter what clothes and did not want to rely on these things - ah well That was then in the 1990ies. Funny that you basically have a similar age and transition timeline then as me and now also experience a bit of a "transition reloaded" by re visiting some of the issues that just dug in over the years.
For me it is mainly three things - my body shape still is bad, in part due to some level of obesity, my face still looks "male" to me in some hours and on some days, my voice sounds too male to me. I think  only the latter one is what really gets me in trouble with others, but both other aspects play a role as well, so I have a priority list of things to do in transition 2.0 to finally get rid of that nagging feeling that followed me over the years.

Yes like you the voice is the number one priority in transition 2.0 (great name BTW!).

I wonder if tying off only 1/3 of the vocal folds is going to be enough in my case. After all these year and effort I really want this surgery to be a success. I know Dr Kim wants to play things safe, but frankly at this stage I'm happy to take risks.

Incidently, I think I have a hunch why Dr Kim uses permanent sutures. It could be something to do with how the scar tissues matures over the first year. If it's not held in place firmly it will distort.  Maybe that's it? I'll ask him when I see him.

Charlotte

So sorry to hear you are upset Daniella, the only thing I can say is stick with it and give it time. Early on in my recovery I was called sir at the drive-thru a few times and it destroyed me, I am familiar with the feeling.

After a while you do get the power back and the ability to talk loudly at higher pitches, but it will never be quite the same as high pitched cis females (if your experience is anything like mine). But after a while, your voice will most likely be virtually unclockable in all situations once you really get used to it. Takes a lot of time!

If you have to talk a lot at your job be ever so careful with your voice. Trying to force it is only going to hinder your recovery, especially if you have vocal tremor.

Try not to get depressed. You will have good voice days and bad voice days, but eventually it will all even out to something that feels normal. I still have bad voice days fyi especially if I don't get enough sleep... sleep is KEY

Hopefully that helps. Feel better and trust that eventually you are going to be very happy with your result. It is such a mind game, I know!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 12, 2014, 03:48:34 PM

Try not to get depressed. You will have good voice days and bad voice days, but eventually it will all even out to something that feels normal. I still have bad voice days fyi especially if I don't get enough sleep... sleep is KEY

Now this I can agree with. I had VFS with Yeson just about a year ago now and it has been a lot of work to get my voice to where I want it but it took a couple of months from the surgery to sound good in my opinion.
It got worse when I had to stop taking the Clonazepam too since I guess that made my voice more breathy or vocal chords just easier to control?

I had a tough time a few weeks ago where my voice dropped (after sounding good for months) because I got a really bad cough for a week or two and I guess the coughing stretched things out for a bit. Yeson advised that I start taking the Clonazepam again and I've been doing lip trills which has got it back to normal though

I am ah, not that good at doing the right things after surgery, but I think the result was successful although not as pronounced as some people on this forum The surgery (in my opinion) improves how your voice sounds at higher pitches, learning how to use those higher pitches is something Yeson do try to help with but there was a lot of learning I had to do by myself on that part.

Hey voodle. Great to hear you are happy now too. Sounds like a lot of voice training was needed for you to get your voice up  - what so you feel that the surgery did improve that you could not have gained with voice training again? you mentioned a better sound at higher frequencies - also a cutoff of the low frequencies so that you cannot accidentially drop into a male range???

I never took the clonazepam / klonopins. I kind of hate benzo's, they make me feel tired and wacky.

Glad to hear you are feeling better about things voodle! Very very glad I've actually noticed my voice is still getting better now almost exactly at a year. Just got a complement last night from my roommate that made my week

Quote from: anjaq on May 13, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
Hey voodle. Great to hear you are happy now too. Sounds like a lot of voice training was needed for you to get your voice up  - what so you feel that the surgery did improve that you could not have gained with voice training again? you mentioned a better sound at higher frequencies - also a cutoff of the low frequencies so that you cannot accidentially drop into a male range???

It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered enough on the phone that I got frustrated with it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1IL24PWe1fE (it's kinda loud and badly recorded!) and there's an example of the lip trills I'm so fond of.

It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone. This is what I figured out back in october and it was quite uncomfortable to do initially. I also don't understand why my speech therapist never focused on that?

Jennygirl: that's awesome I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Quote from: voodle on May 13, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
Jennygirl: that's awesome I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Dang girl! How many did they give you? I only had a 3 month supply

Do whatever with the threads, it's all kind of jumbled at this point

I've been thinking about making a wiki page somewhere to make the information easier to access

Quote from: Charlotte on May 12, 2014, 03:01:33 PM
Yes like you the voice is the number one priority in transition 2.0 (great name BTW!).

I wonder if tying off only 1/3 of the vocal folds is going to be enough in my case. After all these year and effort I really want this surgery to be a success. I know Dr Kim wants to play things safe, but frankly at this stage I'm happy to take risks.

Incidently, I think I have a hunch why Dr Kim uses permanent sutures. It could be something to do with how the scar tissues matures over the first year. If it's not held in place firmly it will distort.  Maybe that's it? I'll ask him when I see him.

Charlotte

Hello,

I have read that Dr. Kim ties off 1/2 to 1/3 depending on the individual, but does anyone know what would happen if a person got tied at 2/3? would the person sound like a chipmunk? lol.

Or a squeaky toy :p

Hi Jenny,

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 13, 2014, 06:58:31 PM
I've been thinking about making a wiki page somewhere to make the information easier to access

That's a great idea. If you need any help, feel free to ask me. Since a lot of posting has gone on over the last days in this thread which I had planned to use for my recovery notes, and I had to catch up with backed-up paperwork, I honestly didn't know where to start answering all these postings. So I'd be all for a wiki information site.

Suffice it to say, I'm past the 3-week postop mark and now manage to produce some reasonably clear tones. Yesterday I was in fear because I was drawn into an argument with somebody and started to cry. It was so hard to muster up the amount of body control necessary to not make a sound while you're in tears. And it was all so needless, to boot. I was so afraid I'd mess up the surgery. Today I feel better again, though. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Strenuous exercise is also allowed again after the 3-week mark. I have to head out for a conference now, but girls, am I looking forward to a trip to the gym when I come back at five!

The last week of silence will also pass by quickly. More on this later!

Take care,

Amy

Quote from: voodle on May 13, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered ....
It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone.

It sounds good if your voice settles higher now more easily, thats definitely a plus. I am not sure about the recording - it sounds fine to me throughout but I guess I am not the best person to judge such things.

What still confuses me is why one needs to train to raise pitch. Basically this is what my voice therapist is trying now already - we do lip trills a lot plus exercises with exxagerrated questions - the goal there is to go really up in pitch at the end of saying for example "what?" and by that get more comfortable using the upper range. I found I also will actually have a higher pitch overall if I do a lot of these. But my hope somehow is that with a VFS this would not be needed so much or be easier. Because I have a hard time to get up in pitch and stay there with training exercises a lot. My therapist claims if I do this really a lot and practice daily, that I would be able to raise my pitch (she is opposed to VFS, so I apologize if some of her doubts seep through me now ).
So basically what training are you doing then? Lip trills only or do you also do some other exercises?

Greetings