So all the discussion I've been having against ya know..gender dichotomy and binary etc is about to fly out the window for a second. Not that I doont believe that, cause I absolutely do, just..yeh.

I just...really really hate being transgender to be honest. I know most of us do, but at the same time I feel like a lot of you have found some internal sense of peace and belonging that I can't...I just can't get there.

It's funny because I'm at this point where like...passing is second nature. I've gotten to the point where I expect to pass no matter what I wear or whatever. And you know I'm blessed because I can wear what I want and act how I want and get compliments when I know there are some girls who can't, and I recognize that privilege.

But at the same time I feel...soo hopelessly out of place everywhere I go. When I'm  around women it's the worst. And because of that i kind of avoid female-only atmospheres, when i can, because I feel like...the cat among the pigeons and like I'm somehow being deceptive. But then like the yesterday I was hanging out with my sister and these girls she worked with...and the girls had no idea I was trans so they were totally comfortable with me and they started talking about all this sh-t that..relates to anatomy and I just want to disappear when that happens.

I feel like...such a liar. And so hollow...like my self portrayal has no depth. I'm good at portraying the image of being female and receive the treatmeant if being female in return, yes. But at the end it feels...fake. I dunno.

Then with guys...when I get around a group of guys it's just awkward. I feel shy and bashful and get really quiet and like...I secretly wish I could identify with them tbh. I just wanna be normal so bad. I know it sounds stupid but I feel like...I have those parts right? So I wish I could like..feel that kinda kinship iguess haha? I dunno. But they just look at me and see a girl, soo.

Honestly, this is one of the hardest parts of the whole trans experience, to me. I can say what I wanna say about self acceptance, and how things should be, and I can be all into that...alternative view of gender. And honestly I do feel all that stuff and I do like androgyny and that. But sometimes? I just wanna be normal so bad. I'm tired of feeling fake and inauthentic and like my very existence is, at best, a close kept secret that I have to conceal and at worst a giant lie or deception.

Honestly some days...being male or female doesn't even matter to me. I just wanna be normal. But I feel like I'm at a point where I have no claim to either, anymore...I'm just a hybrid.

Does anyone else get this?

In a way I think.

I know this body will never be quite right no matter how much money or medical people I use. This others me to not feeling quite able to fit in either side. I do feel much more comfortable being with men as myself and do fine until it hits a snag somehow.

I can somewhat relate.  I mean I did have to actively convince myself that I was not being fake when I portrayed myself as female in the early days.  Luckily I kind of buy into the arguments I made, and therefore don't probably feel the strain you feel, and mostly don't have to do that anymore, at least not to that degree.

The way I see it is trans women are 100% women, but a kind of woman, like white women are a kind of woman.  We are not exactly the same as cis women (any more than a short poor woman is exactly the same as a tall rich one) our socialization was different, especially in the most impressionable years, and our bodies physically differ, so we have a different relationship with them.  And we can't necessarily feel kinship with other girls when they start talking about certain issues they have with their anatomy that we don't, especially periods... that comes up a lot.  But we can be true to ourselves, be women, and be able to say (or just think to ourselves) you know, I haven't experienced these things cause I'm a trans woman, and it can be okay.

Just like how if a cis woman started talking like she understood what it was to grow up a trans woman I would narrow my eyes at her, she would probably do the same to me if I started acting like I knew what it is to grow up cis.  We have almost everything in common with cis girls (well I do anyway, I'm probably talking like everybody is the same as me and I know they aren't) but in those few areas where we are dimorphic, it is okay to accept the differences.  That there are areas where I am different from cis girls does not invalidate my womanhood, at all.  I just accept it and am mostly okay with it.

Hey,

i have the exact same problem. The impossibility of being "normal" is a huge problem for me. Im pre everything and i have doubts that i will ever be happy whatever i do now. i will have a toxic future or have to live with a toxic past. being trans is a living nightmare for me. it is not just the anatomic, that i wont be able to talk about some themes, it is the secret. i think kill somebody on accident and keep it to oneself is comparable

greetings

If the secret bothers you that much, just be open about things to people.  You aren't under any obligation to tell anybody anything though, people withhold details of their lives all the time.

I will say, in those instances where girls start talking about things I can't relate with on a personal level, it isn't an inclusive feeling.  It makes me feel different.  But the only way I could ever be in a group where that wouldn't happen is if I had a group of trans women my age to hang out with, from my some socio-economic background, who have had similar experiences with their own transitions, and ... I mean... I am the only trans person I know in real life.  Not only that, I am the only trans person anybody I have come out to even knows.  Obviously I will never have this mythical group of friends, we are just too rare and unique.  So, I will always be an outsider in some ways.  But truly, there are enough things I have in common with other women my age that I don't often feel that way.  I do feel part of the group.  And people always strive to be unique snowflakes, I don't have to strive for that lol.

I kind of know what you mean, except about the always passing part.  I want people to see me strictly as female, but if they do, then I worry about what would happen if they found out otherwise, but then I also don't want to tell them as I do know the way they relate to me will change, it always does. So I am always careful not to get close to anyone and I tend to keep mostly to myself away from work. I don't feel like an authentic anything really and yeah, it bugs the crap out of me.

I felt that way living pre transition. Now I feel very well adjusted.

Jen, I'm quite jealous of that inner fortitude. It's soo hard convincing my brain that stuff.

I kinda feel like...I dunno. It's hard to describe. Like my gender doesn't have that...umph. Superficially, yeah, I'm a girl...but it's a hollow thing. I dunno how to describe it. Like...I'm still biologically male, objectively, in the end.

My big problem is, I'm indignant at the thought of being a guy...like almost oppositionally, like I shouldn't have to be a guy. But then deeep down I feel like I'm not really a girl. Even though I want to be. I feel like I'm not. And it feels like something I'm powerless to change. And trying to change it drives me crazy, like I already said to the point where I just wish so bad I was cis, anyway I could be...and the only way I could be cis would be as a guy...so suddenly I romanticize being a guy...except when actually aam one...then the process starts all over and I'm left at the same place again and again and again.

Which is why even now I resist the urge to detransition, which is there a teeeny bit, honestly. Because I know it won't logically solve the problem. It'll just continue the cycle, in the end.

Uggh..this is why I wish we lived in a society where genders weren't so distinguished..

Abby, in some ways we're a lot alike. I'm pre-T and pre-op, but pass so much it's what I expect, and am living full time (I too realize that I am blessed). It does feel awkward for me when others (of either gender) start sh*t talking about the opposite sex/gender, and sometimes I do feel like an outsider.  However, I've felt like an outsider in the same sense for most of my life, so it's not really much of a change for me except that I have a name for it now.

One thing that helps me a bit is having several close friends that know me as a transguy, and I don't have to worry quite so much about how I'm being read.

And technically, though we are assigned female or male at birth, science is starting to prove that objectively, we are biologically trans, in the end.

Society is slow to catch up, per usual, but we belong as much as anyone else.

Quote from: Jen on May 11, 2014, 05:20:17 PM
If the secret bothers you that much, just be open about things to people.  You aren't under any obligation to tell anybody anything though, people withhold details of their lives all the time.

I will say, in those instances where girls start talking about things I can't relate with on a personal level, it isn't an inclusive feeling.  It makes me feel different.  But the only way I could ever be in a group where that wouldn't happen is if I had a group of trans women my age to hang out with, from my some socio-economic background, who have had similar experiences with their own transitions, and ... I mean... I am the only trans person I know in real life.  Not only that, I am the only trans person anybody I have come out to even knows.  Obviously I will never have this mythical group of friends, we are just too rare and unique.  So, I will always be an outsider in some ways.  But truly, there are enough things I have in common with other women my age that I don't often feel that way.  I do feel part of the group.  And people always strive to be unique snowflakes, I don't have to strive for that lol.

maybe secret is the wrong word, english isnt my native and i havent much love to this language so my vocabulary is that of a 3 year old child. not to mention the retard like grammar...

it is the knowledge that you are not the same in a way they wont understand. and the average human avoid those things. it is not that you are a freak, a nerd or have other "normal" nuts. and on the other side it is you who know that your are a alien for them and still trans. i could be part of them till a theme comes up which brings the reality back to me. and it wouldnt matter if the group know that i am trans or not. i dont see this as a gender question, more or less female, it is more the alien thing. my own family, childs were important for me. the traditional family form. normal...

maybe i suffer not enough or long enough under the disphoria that i am unable to accept that i am trans as my normality. i want a normal life. nothing special. and trans is ->-bleeped-<-ing special. dont transition for a cis dream is seductive. i still hope a therapist will convince me that i am not trans...even if i know that wont happen, just to say whats running through my head. this is why abbys thoughts are really interesting for me

greetings

Hm, you know, in a way I feel the same, even though I could be considered binary. I see myself as a man, but knowing which parts I have...I guess I get scared people will find out? And accuse me of lying? Like I feel very nervous about it. I don't think that's exactly what you're going through, but these feelings I have often make me wish I was "normal" too, and unfortunately, by normal I do mean cisgender. I don't feel duplicitous in saying that I am a man, but the way I feel about my body makes me feel like I must be a fake.

I should add that even if I wanted to go back to being female, which I don't, I'm too far gone anyway and that would come off as super inauthentic.

Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 09:10:31 PM
Hm, you know, in a way I feel the same, even though I could be considered binary. I see myself as a man, but knowing which parts I have...I guess I get scared people will find out? And accuse me of lying? Like I feel very nervous about it. I don't think that's exactly what you're going through, but these feelings I have often make me wish I was "normal" too, and unfortunately, by normal I do mean cisgender. I don't feel duplicitous in saying that I am a man, but the way I feel about my body makes me feel like I must be a fake.

I should add that even if I wanted to go back to being female, which I don't, I'm too far gone anyway and that would come off as super inauthentic.

It's something like this. I don't feel weird saying "ima girl" at all, but it doesn't pack the punch I wish it did. Like..if I never transitioned I could just be like "ima guy" and it would just BE. It's not like now where it's like...girl asterisk. It's like there's so much baggage in being this way it's almost like it's not even worth it, sometimes.

And the other thing is, I can't realky call myself a guy now without coming off as a bit silly, in most contexts. Which is okay, but it adds to that feeling of isolation cause nos...I reaally don't belong anywhere.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 11, 2014, 09:22:15 PM
Like..if I never transitioned I could just be like "ima guy" and it would just BE. It's not like now where it's like...girl asterisk.

yeah that's exactly how I feel. I've had a lot of occasions where people find out I am trans and they just don't see me as a guy. A bad experience a year ago that really scarred me, actually, with a supposed "cis ally." Or they do see me as a man, but as some special sort of man, like Man Lite or something lol. When I was female, it was like, it didn't even matter, it was just the way it was and other than maybe some subconscious sexism, no one really thought anything of it. But when they find out I'm trans...yeah, they just can't see me as a regular person. Even when they think I'm cis, I get all paranoid and caught up in my head, like "if they took off my clothes they'd see" and I can't even enjoy passing. I feel like I should be able to enjoy it, you know? This is how I like my body and the way I want to be seen in the world but the thoughts make it hard to enjoy it.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 11, 2014, 05:50:26 PM
I felt that way living pre transition. Now I feel very well adjusted.

Yes, I totally relate to this. I'm pre HRT and when I'm in the office I relate to no one. The few "real" friends I have are gay guys but I don't fit in with them either. They just don't judge me on the way I act sometimes or that I love style/fashion or that when I have a few drinks, I lose my facade and am just one of the girls. I take this as a compliment.

Abbyxo, my suggestion is to find friends to relate to based off one of your interests or hobbies. If you don't have a hobby, look for one. You might find a group of friends that you can relate to based on the interest.

Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
yeah that's exactly how I feel. I've had a lot of occasions where people find out I am trans and they just don't see me as a guy. A bad experience a year ago that really scarred me, actually, with a supposed "cis ally." Or they do see me as a man, but as some special sort of man, like Man Lite or something lol. When I was female, it was like, it didn't even matter, it was just the way it was and other than maybe some subconscious sexism, no one really thought anything of it. But when they find out I'm trans...yeah, they just can't see me as a regular person. Even when they think I'm cis, I get all paranoid and caught up in my head, like "if they took off my clothes they'd see" and I can't even enjoy passing. I feel like I should be able to enjoy it, you know? This is how I like my body and the way I want to be seen in the world but the thoughts make it hard to enjoy it.

Ugh...yes. very much that. It's a really hard feeling to describe. I think it's this feeling for me of like...i tell myself ya know...you can feel like a girl and look like a girl, but that doesn't mean you aare one.

I always do this but it's just this profound analogy that resonates so much with me, I liken it to this painting:

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/rene-magritte/the-treachery-of-images-this-is-not-a-pipe-1948

It just...it's the only way I can sum up such a complex feeling. Like portraying the image of something, exactly, but not being that thing, not reaally. And I love the name, too, "treachery of images", because there is something treacherous about being trans.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 11, 2014, 09:59:51 PM
Ugh...yes. very much that. It's a really hard feeling to describe. I think it's this feeling for me of like...i tell myself ya know...you can feel like a girl and look like a girl, but that doesn't mean you aare one.

I always do this but it's just this profound analogy that resonates so much with me, I liken it to this painting:

http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/rene-magritte/the-treachery-of-images-this-is-not-a-pipe-1948

It just...it's the only way I can sum up such a complex feeling. Like portraying the image of something, exactly, but not being that thing, not reaally. And I love the name, too, "treachery of images", because there is something treacherous about being trans.

Ok, so here's another one of Kova's pearls of wisdom. This is a secret that sales people, TV producers and anyone that is in showbiz.

Perception is reality.

Lets take the analogy of the painting. People will happily pay for a forgery because to them it is the same thing. The funny truth about good forgeries is the brush technique can be perfect, the colors blended magnificently, the skill of the painter is without question. The one difference is the perception of the painting's origin.

At the end of the day, your origin doesn't matter as much as the fact you're still a beautifully crafted masterpiece. Don't get hung up on the asterisk. 

Hmm, well, I may diverge from you there. I don't feel that my male appearance is in any way treacherous, per se. I feel like their knowledge of my transness is what betrays my truth, rather than the fact that I'm trans in and of itself. Like as if, when they know I'm trans, my chances of ever being accepted for who I am is gone, and they'll always want to find a narrative to assign to me. Like I hate when guys come up and slap me on the back, because I'm dreading that they'll feel the sports bra straps. Or when a girl hugs me I'm scared she's going to feel too much. Or what if someone randomly decided to pants me in public (lol so unlikely but you know)?

Quote from: Kova V on May 11, 2014, 10:31:56 PM
Perception is reality.

Lets take the analogy of the painting. People will happily pay for a forgery because to them it is the same thing. The funny truth about good forgeries is the brush technique can be perfect, the colors blended magnificently, the skill of the painter is without question. The one difference is the perception of the painting's origin.

At the end of the day, your origin doesn't matter as much as the fact you're still a beautifully crafted masterpiece. Don't get hung up on the asterisk. 

I actually think that's quite insightful! I mean, some people would place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that a painting is original, but I think your point still holds up. You've given me something to think about here.

Alright, lemme get it out of the way...

Me too!

*gasp*

Yeah, obviously this seriously resonates with me a lot, and I don't know why. Actually I know why, so I guess I'll explain why.

It's a projection. Projections are a seriously strong psychological mechanism, like really, oh my god. Here's the problem. I know acutely, when living as a girl, that I am trans. I am extremely aware of that. Unfortunately empathy comes from the top down. I have to project how I think onto people to be able to empathize with how they think. That's why I will just never understand a lot of people. Because they are actually different. They actually think differently and have different prejudices... I mean I'll intellectualize the way they behave, and accept that I can't feel the same, but I won't understand, I won't feel how they feel authentically ever unless I happen to change to be authentically more similar to them.

So when I think about how someone will think about me, I can't unknow the potential of being seen as trans. And because I judge myself as unnatural for being trans, I can't help but fear that they will also judge me for being trans. The outsider. The other. A projection... exactly how I believe I really am in the first place. What I fear other people thinking... really to some extent tells me what I think about myself. That's why homophobes are often bi or gay.

Well, it actually can get better, you can feel more natural. I've definitely come a long way living as a girl even if I struggle with these kinds of fears over pretty much every little thing in my life, way beyond just gender. You ultimately have to change your perception of yourself, though. Either get more used to seeing yourself as being not different from other girls, or get out of the habit of thinking about the fact that you are trans (<---hard one to break obv, and basically leaves you without support for your feelings)... also to have a more positive view of either trans people as a whole, or of your unique self.

It's not easy to change all those things... just gotta go with what you think you can actually change. You can always become less aware of things... so maybe paying attention to how often you think about being trans, then letting those thoughts go as they come up, making conscious efforts to avoid dwelling on them.

Losing the fear of being known as trans is a big one... that's the whole reason I accepted myself as a boy. I wanted to basically trick my mind with total acceptance of what I am. Well and I mean, I just like the simplicity and naturalness of identifying as a boy, and still being able to say at least some of the time that it doesn't matter. And honestly, it does and has helped quite a lot even though I still present as, to other people, a girl.

Also, having more experiences will make you feel more like other girls, or at least less of an otherness. And it sounds like you're doing that anyway so..

And this is another sort of trick, but, thinking about external things makes you less able to think about and be conscious of yourself. So instead of reacting personally to people, maybe you could judge them a little, lol. :3 Just notice things about them and try to be conscious of when you're comparing or bringing it back on yourself, and again, just nudge your thoughts back to them or to the outside world, to observing and taking in rather than processing and concluding and stuff.

Those are just some things that are helping me personally... I know it aint easy though. :c

*hugs to all suffering from this* :<

Honestly the only way I found my inner peace after years of struggling was finding my passion. Like I totally get where you're coming from Abbey. I also pass fully, can wear whatever, hang out with women and feel the same way. Except in my case I just prefer to hang out with women, I always seem to connect easier with them. With guys its always a bit more of an effort since they're usually more closed off, at least thats been my experience.  But when anything female body related comes up, I just go with the flow and listen. I cringe in the back of my mind too and feel like poop about it but in the end its whatever cause I know trans woman or not. Cis women deal with a lot of our same issues, especially body dysphoria..

So yeah if I were you, definitely try finding something you're deeply passionate about cause it will make your world 10x times better. And make the hard moments much easier to deal with.

Quote from: sad panda on May 11, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Well, it actually can get better, you can feel more natural. I've definitely come a long way living as a girl even if I struggle with these kinds of fears over pretty much every little thing in my life, way beyond just gender. You ultimately have to change your perception of yourself, though.

YES!! agreed, I actually just did this the other day and finally found a way to cope with my bottom dysphoria.

Quote from: sad panda on May 11, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Also, having more experiences will make you feel more like other girls, or at least less of an otherness. And it sounds like you're doing that anyway so..

I think there is a lot of truth in this.   And therefore to an extent, this is a problem that can sort of take care of itself if you give it time.  You get to where being a woman is the most natural thing, and it is the only way you can think of yourself, and you look back and you can't even imagine being a man and it is the phoniest fakest thing you could ever think of trying to be.  Once you start being in that headspace, feeling authentic about being a woman is the only nature you have.   I am already kinda feeling this way.  In 10 or 20 years I imagine it will be impossible to see myself as anything but, just given how even now, a few years in, I look back at that person I was supposed to be and feel zero recognition.  Like who was that?  Me??   Wtf..   Nothing about transition has given me a stronger feeling of dissonance than that.