Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on May 23, 2014, 08:15:37 AM
Problem is I hate wearing makeup and from the experience I have it doesn't make one passable. Only look more doll face. And I don't want to look doll face.

Don't wanna sound mean but... speak for yourself... If I didn't have makeup, I wouldn't even be remotely passing because of my impossible shadow and my still-developing cheeks. You don't have to be a doll face... even in today's basic female make-up tutorials, the key thing is "less is more" and looking "natural" like you're not wearing any makeup. a little foundation/concealer, bronzer, blush and mascara is all you really need to make your face look naturally feminine... and then you can add eyeliner, eye-shadow or lip color to your desire. Most of the time I literally just put on concealer (hide the shadow), bronzer to even out my skin tone, and blush to accentuate my currently small cheeks. I add eye makeup and lip makeup because i like to, but i don't need to. you just have to know how to use it and you can't go cheap on it either, the right make up is supposed to accomplish 2 things: 1. Feel like its not there and 2. look like its natural. If you aren't achieving this, you either need to practice more or you need better quality makeup.

But I agree with what kira21 said, your hair has a HUGE effect on your facial appearance. I learned this a loooooooooong time ago before i even realized I was trans. and when I say hair, i mean ALL hair.... your hairstyle, your eyebrows, your sideburns even (if you have any). my face looks monumentally different simply by pulling my hair into a pony tail.

I *was* speaking for myself...

And sorry, by my standards all makeup looks doll face. You can't have contours without foundation, so automatically it looks doll face to *me*.

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on May 23, 2014, 08:35:31 AM
From the moment one lays the foundation all the rich subtle color differences in the face are lost. Then one tries with contours to build a new richness to replace it but it will never match the subtle complexity of the natural skin colors and look simple and artificial and doll face in comparison. Maybe I am more harsh in this judgement and less used to accepting the style of make up look but I don't want to change that. I know how I want to look and makeup gets me further away from that look. Not closer.

Plus it totally clogs up the skin and the pores and feels icky and sweaty and stings in the eyes.

I prefer how I look without makeup than with and I don't feel makeup makes me pass better. I've tried.  I hate it.

But hair, yes, I am trying different styles and colors.

Make up deosnt mean foundation :p

but a bit of shadow and blush. personaly i hate blush.

but a bit of mascara shadow and lippy can go with your natural face.
Foundation isnt nessesery. when your face is the foundation

Yes, I can do those. But they won't make me pass.

And I do use mascara every now and then.

Quote from: Kyra553 on May 22, 2014, 10:29:33 PM
By regressed do you mean reserved back to before or just less obvious to notice?

MUCH less obvious!

Quote from: Junebug on May 23, 2014, 04:09:48 AM
You can try to ask for estrogen cream for your face from your endo.  The ladies in Thailand have been doing this for a couple of years now, so it's still kind of new.  Although your endo would have to take account of how much you are already getting from HRT and would need to work off the numbers from that.  Saw my cousin's friend during the holiday last year and it worked well for her, totally a completely different person from when I met her a few years ago.

But whether this effect is really from the cream or from the hormones the person is taking, one cannot really tell. Cream, if effectively absorbed into the blood which I personally doubt after reading through several studies, would not only affect face but the rest of the body. I'd be very skeptical about creams...but try and see for yourself, you can also take blood tests.

As always, do this with a doctor's authorization.

Quote from: __________ on May 23, 2014, 07:49:59 AM
Ruth, looking at your avatar, you're on the thinner side already.  Slimming further won't help your facial feminization if your face is already thin.

It's counterintuitive - kinda, at least.  Looking back over my photos, when I first started to try to look seriously girly about 18 months ago, I was forty pounds heavier.  My face was much rounder, my cheeks a little plumper, and all that fat (not that I was a particularly chubby person) made my face look - in retrospect - far more feminine than it does today.  I thought back then that if I lost weight, I'd look more feminine.  Bodywise, sure, it worked.  Facewise, it didn't.  My face is now far more angular and less feminine than it used to be.  I now realize that part of my transition will be adding twenty pounds back again, even though I don't really want to.

Don't underestimate how plump a female face really is.  A little weight - a healthy amount - can do wonders for a face, just to round out some of the sharper edges and give it a slightly softer look.

But I'm right there with you on the frustrations of finding a good balance between body and face when it comes to weight.   

+ 1. Totally agree. When I was thinner, I had a amazing body but my face was more angular, less feminine, older looking, not as healthy looking either. Now, I've gained 20 lbs, I have a more feminine body (more curves), fuller younger looking face, BUT I also have a little belly and more cellulite, which I hate. So, I need to lose a few pounds. It's hard finding the right balance.

I'm afraid it would take a lot of extra weight for the fat to reach my face judging by my experience so far.

Or just maybe, your HRT needs to be readjusted so it yields better results. Talk to your doctor about this. Tell them you aren't getting good results, see what they think.  I personally think an effective HRT should eventually allow you to pass, regardless of makeup but there is also what you started with, HRT cannot do miracles...you may eventually need to resort to some slight FFS...but I wouldn't go that route until you've spent at least 1-2 yrs on an EFFECTIVE HRT regimen for you.

I totally understand your concerns. Some patience is needed and if after awhile, you see no improvement, then go see your doctor and make necessary adjustments.

The blood results show my hormone levels are where they should be so not much to change there. This month we reduced a bit of testosterone blocker because I feel completely sexless. It's been two-three weeks since the change without any change to my libido so I have a feeling my testosterone is still below measureable value.

Perhaps, you need more. Ask doctor if it would be alright to increase and see if it makes a difference in terms of feminization. What the risks are. To perhaps take blood tests regularly and if everything is in normal range, then you can continue on higher dose. Just as an experiment. I think individuals vary in their sensitivity so that some may need more, some may need less. What is ideal for one may not be ideal for another. I needed more, I know a girl who does very well on very little. I have received my blood tests recently and although my levels are quite high, everything is normal (except Vitamin D). Liver function, blood count, thyroid, all in normal range. My endo and family doctor were happy with results.

Your safety is, as always, the most important thing. But, I think it would be worthwhile to discuss these matters with your doctor so as to find the best plan for you to achieve your goal while keeping risks at a minimum.

Good luck!

We increased it once and the number is already a bit above what is needed and she is afraid of creating blood clotting if we increase it more. I have low B12 and high blood cell volume and low blood cell count. I am taking additives and this issue is improving, but she claims there is no point adding more estrogen and causing side effects. That once the hormones are where they should be it doesn't make the HRT more effective.

I heard that B12 is sometimes depleted when taking Androcur and is low in people eating no meat or animal protein. So that may be the reason. Did you ask her the reason why it was low?

Do you take estradiol orally? Both oral estradiol and Androcur tend to increase coagulation so if you switch to non-oral, perhaps and switch anti-androgens, this would improve not only risk of clotting but  blood cell count as well. As always, your doctor is the expert, I'm no doctor but these are just suggestions, things to look into and discuss with her.

For instance, studies have shown that injectable or transdermal estradiol in men with advanced prostate cancer did not increase clotting at all. These studies were done in Scandinavia. I can provide these studies and you can show them to her. Transdermal estradiol in post-menopausal women also seems to not increase clotting.

I also think that injectable estradiol, used alone, can be quite effective at suppressing T.

Like I said, these are just suggestions...talk to her, see what she says. Trying to help out, as much as I can but your doctor has the last word. and you should always follow her recommendations.

I already talked to her about this and she said that because I don't smoke or drink that it is ok for me to take estrogen and t blocker orally and that this is the most effective method, as long as I get my B12 levels fixed which were low before I started hormones.

I have been vegan for almost two years when I started taking hormones and neglected taking B12 additives. When I started taking hormones I started taking additives and my B12 and blood cell values have been improving so she says I should stay with the oral intake since I seem to be getting better in that regard.

My T level was not very high to begin with so the blocker totally crushed my testosterone and we were not sure the E was high enough. So in my first checkup we raised the Estrofem level and she didn't allow me to raise it more because my levels were a bit above what was needed at that point and she sees no point in raising it more.

And 2-3 weeks ago I was frustrated enough with being sexless to slightly change my T blocker levels. No noticeable change in libido and I'm going to check my hormone levels again.

Basically we spoke about all these options and she said my body has the T and E levels I need and together with the additives that I am in no risk of blood clotting and she sees no point in trying to get higher E levels, that once you reach the female range adding more is not effective and only adds risk.

Skin and fat changes will take much more time... I think I noticed a change at around the 7 or 8 month mark and I am on a super high dose of pellet HRT.

Then recently I noticed a massive surge in the amount of fat going to my hips n butt, nearly 18 months in (still maintaining that super high dose).

Facially, it felt as if things had changed all that they were going to at around 9 months- but that was just for me. Everyone is going to be different.

I would recommend waiting at least 12 months before considering anything to change facial bone structure.

Also I have to agree with Kira about makeup. I've had a lot of experience with it, and when I started out it was doll face. Then over time I learned how to minimize the amount and just recently I have been asked how I keep my skin so nice without wearing makeup... Umm I wear eyeliner, mascara, a few tiny dots of concealer, and a very light dusting of powder. It looks very natural apparently Maybe don't write off makeup completely... especially a touch of eyeliner and mascara can make you feel a whole lot better about your feminine appearance (at least it does for me!)

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on May 24, 2014, 12:38:12 PM
I already talked to her about this and she said that because I don't smoke or drink that it is ok for me to take estrogen and t blocker orally and that this is the most effective method

Injectable estrogen was far more effective (better) for me than oral estrogen. Day and night! It seems to also give better results for some but some also do very well on oral. I think it depends.

The advantage non-orally is a better ratio of estradiol (the strongest estrogen) to estrone and higher bioavailability. Health risks also seem to be less although bio-identical seems quite safe, even orally as confirmed by your doctor.

Quote from: Ruth Ruthlesswe raised the Estrofem level and she didn't allow me to raise it more because my levels were a bit above what was needed at that point and she sees no point in raising it more.

Perhaps, it could give better feminization as you seem to be complaining about facial changes. It might help with weight gain too. Did you mention this to her? For instance, in my case, I have close to pregnancy levels of estradiol and my doctors are not concerned as my lab values (liver, thyroid, etc) are all in normal range. This allowed for improved energy, softer skin all around (and hair) and less hair shedding. 

Quote from: Ruth Ruthlessonce you reach the female range adding more is not effective and only adds risk.

OK. In my case, my doctors agreed w/me that switching to injectables could perhaps give better results with no increased risk as was confirmed by my labs since estradiol is now taken non-orally. Higher levels, akin to those seen in early pregnancy, did make a difference for me. But, we're all different, I guess.

Like I said, you can also suggest this other route, just in case, take blood tests regularly to verifiy that all is well. She may agree, you never know. But regardless, I am ME and you are YOU. Always follow your doctors recommendations and do what is best for you.

4.5 months isn't even long enough to see changes. You need at least 1-2 years on it. You've spent all these years in the wrong body, you can manage a few extra months of patience for the changes to happen. All the best.