Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.


Nero

Oh no Nero, what are you going to get me into now?  Okay, you want honesty? here it is:

I have had certain experiences in my life pertaining to this.  As you probably know, I have become an internet addict and have been frequenting TS sites in the last year.  Well, I used to be very close to certain people on the web.  They identified themselves as females, expressed themselves as females on their posts but didn't have a picture of themselves posted.

Eventually, these women decided to share their photos with everyone on the board, and needless to say, I was rather surprised to see that their physical characteristics did not match what they had been bragging about for months.

Indeed, like your mom said, they looked like men (and sorry I don't intend to offend anyone with this remark, I am just explaining my experience).  After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.  I couldn't see them as before anymore.  I was disappointed with myself because I thought that after SRS, I had grown past that issue, but I hadn't.

I don't know if this helps or if I am making any sense at all, but I certainly understand your mom; it is extremely difficult to relate to someone as female when that someone doesn't look like one.  Again, perhaps I have some insecurity issues I have to work on; who knows; I just didn't feel comfortable looking at their photos and acknowledging they were women like I was.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and if I have, I deeply apologize.

tink

Strangely enough, this bothers me more if the person is seemingly oblivious to the fact that the person facing them would have to do a conscious effort to treat them as female and just expect it like it was soooo obvious.

If the person is conscient of their shortcoming seemingly understand that people's perception/reaction to them will be skewed from the reaction to a GG (basically not delusional) but are expecting mostly respect and civility from others, then I have no problem with that and will do my best to do so. But, its improbable that I will treat them exactly as though they were GG's.

I think the key problem with the whole premise of this issue is that it completely and totally relies on assumptions. We all know how accurate assumptions can be also. Unless said person definitively tells you how they want to be addressed that's exactly what you'll be doing.

The next assumption that is being made is that you "know" what female or male is to begin with. I guess i don't see any need to treat X or Y identification differently from the other. "Passability" is a very vague concept to begin with and quite personal too it seems, different people will have different definitions on that subject also. I mean ( disregard this if you don't accept androgyne as a valid identity ) if you meet someone who identifies as androgyne there may be not obvious physical cues of such and you can only know how to address them after they tell you as such.

When you realize that "treating" someone as X or Y has no real definition then it kind of loses it's meaning, both to treating someone as such and asking to be treated as such. The only real thing you can ask for is to be treated as a human being and to have your basic rights repsected and have no uninformed assumptions made. That may be too much to ask but i still think it's worth a shot.

Quote from: Tink on August 31, 2007, 11:09:51 PM
After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.

Exactly why I pulled down all my photos, and why I hesitate to talk to anyone here on the phone. I NEED the validation I feel here, at least for now, and don't want to risk losing that. Everyone here is always so encouraging and supportive... but you never know what someone is *really* thinking, if the spell was broken.

There are a few women for whom I've only seen pre-HRT pictures of... and at least for the ones I'm thinking of, the personality soon overrides any physical male impressions I may have of them. It almost seems like they're pictures of someone else... I can't mentally connect the photos to the soul.

Dealing with someone in person might be different, but ironically the only real experience I have is with someone who might self-identify as a "->-bleeped-<-," meaning someone who wants to feminize but who specifically wants to keep and enjoy their male genitals and sexuality. They've made no physical changes yet, but they're so incredibly soft-spoken and feminine, it's hard for me to think of them as a "guy," even when they're sitting there with a beard shadow.

So I dunno, I guess my answer is IT DEPENDS, lol...

~Kate~

Quote from: Jaycie on August 31, 2007, 11:53:00 PM

The next assumption that is being made is that you "know" what female or male is to begin with. I guess i don't see any need to treat X or Y identification differently from the other...

When you realize that "treating" someone as X or Y has no real definition then it kind of loses it's meaning, both to treating someone as such and asking to be treated as such.

There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

Quote from: Nero on September 01, 2007, 12:28:50 AM
There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

QuoteAll the discussion about 'what is female or male' is head-oriented stuff and an interesting and important matters to discuss,  but not something I experience in an intuitive, unconscious way. The vast, vast majority of people (and very likely most genderqueers) do, in fact, gender people whether they like it or not. And while one might have a more sophisticated take on the gendering process and call many of its assumptions into question, that doesn't mean the gendering isn't happening at its almost primitive (dumb?) level.

Doesn't that speak to more of a social problem that is solvable rather than just shrug and place the blame on "i can't help it"? If there's no need for it then there should be a concious effort to not do it. Blaming it on 'automatic' is just a cop-out. 

In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

No, it's not... and not all cisgendered people have this problem.  I don't.  I take people as they come to me.  If they introduce themselves to be as female then I view them as female.  If they introduce to me as male then I view them as male. 

The people I have the most slipup's in pronouns are androgynes... one in particular on this board, and they know that I'm trying -very- hard not to slip...   I'm not sure why I slip with them.... It's not that I don't view them as androgyne,  I think it's a combination of their name, and some of the pictures they have where they are cosplaying as one particular gender.

None the less..

I try to follow the golden rule.  Treat everyone the way I would want to be treated.

I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting...

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting...

In my experience, the transsexual "community" is far more unforgiving than the general public is.

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
Personally, I found you mixing in the 'gay panic defense' a not very fair part of this discussion. It's like calling someone you disagree with a nazi. The gay panic defense specifically relates to acts of extreme violence and a justification for that violence, not how you experience someone when you're walking down the street or in one-on-one contact. Last time I looked, gendering people as other than who they identify with is not an act of violence.

That's why i said that i used it in a very loose sense. It's a very good example on shifting responsibility to the 'victim' for an "automatic" reaction. Another one being,  "that person shouldn't have dressed so sexily if they didn't want to be raped". Yes they're both extreme examples, but still relevant i think.

Quote from: Kate on September 01, 2007, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting...

In my experience, the transsexual "community" is far more unforgiving than the general public is.

~Kate~

Well on some level I've noticed this too..

Though it isn't unexpected for a trans to 'spot' a trans when the general public might not... basically you know what you're looking for...  Whereas the general public will take people at 'face value' and not look too deeply...

But I do notice some members of the trans community being very critical of other members of the trans community, and members of the gay community etc... when as minorities I really think we should be sticking together.

Quote from: regina on September 01, 2007, 01:53:10 AM
From your perspective it's shifting responsibility. From my perspective, you're trying to politicize something that, at it's most mundane level, isn't political, it's perceptual. Yes, I think there are many societal reasons that people are treated certain ways and how we relate to that person. But that's a separate issue from how we gender people in the instantaneous/automatic way it occurs. What we do with that gendering and relate to the person after the gendering occurs might very well be a political/social issue.

The gendering process itself is, in my belief, very unconscious. I see a lot of people putting a big layer of judgment on that process as if it's something you can just shift if you want to. And I don't believe one can. Once you've gendered someone I would hope you would try to treat that person as their target gender and be solicitous of their name, legalistic and pronoun preferences. But that don't mean you're going to deep-down, relate to that person in the way they're hoping for. Nor do I believe you can educate people's innate reactions away. You can educate how they have perspective on those reactions. So, perhaps we could disagree without you having to characterize me as somehow supporting 'rape' or 'gay panic'. Do you think it's possible for you to do that?

ciao,
Gina M.

Maybe the problem is that i expect more of people than that. And i do disagree that you can't educate some of these 'innate' reactions away. If not then sexism and racism would never go away since they were quite acceptable in the past and from what i've seen quite a lot of the people who feel in such ways would call them innate too.

Is it really so hard to say 'they' instead of he/she if there's some question about a person or if they haven't informed you of what they prefer? Does solidly gendering a person right off give any inherent benefits? All it does in my opinion is to lead to a road of unfounded assumptions.

I'll completely agree that i'm somewhat of an idealist in this area but there's no reason to take an assumption and then treat someone differently than if you hadn't made an uninformed decision in the first place.

As for the comment about "characterizing you as supporting rape or gay panic",  both of those are examples of situations that are similar in a vague essence, not fact. Therefore neither characterized you as 'supporting' anything at all. 

As this is a taboo subject, I going to give my 2 cents worth here and bugger the consequences.

For a start, the main topic questions about the 'unpassables' which in itself I find offensive.  It's sort of like the 'unmentionables.'  As we go along we find people have difficulty in their pronouns, he/she.  O.k, so would you prefer to use 'it'?  Maybe you should ask the 'offending' person if they might prefer that title instead because it's just too hard to remember she/he, especially while looking directly at them dressed in their feminine attire .
Also, it doesn't matter how that person expresses their feelings, communicates  in a feminine way etc. they look too male, well that's it then, they're shot!  It's over, they must be ostracised immediately, barred from friendships with others who have a similar past/history.  Perhaps 'real' women would be more forgiving, more tolerant, more engaging.  Yes, I think so....no, I know that to be so.   

I had hoped for a more understanding and unprejudice lot of people here, but I see that was too much to ask. 

Being Male, Female or somewhere inbetween really starts inside that person. Assuming no visual image to sway my interpretation, generally I can determine from how they act (say through chat or forum postings) that that person is sincere with their feelings of who they are. Thats good enough for me. I feel compassion for all of us TG folk and even if they looked extremely "unpassable" I would give them the full curtesy and respect another member of the human race deserves. Yes it may be necessary to ask them a couple questions to key into what their specific situation is but then you know and you can treat them how they want to be treated.

Maybe appearances make a big deal to many, but it should instead be about who's inside.

M&M
We're all people

QuoteI'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

I see the beauty of who someone is inside, for me that shines through regardless of their exterior presentation. I am also open to the possibility of more than two genders, so I see a person with all their gendered history as something very beautiful and special. If you're a transwomen with deep bass voice and 3 day beard, if you're a transman with breasts and feminine features, if you're something else entirely, that's all great. Tell me what pronouns to use, and I'll use them. I look at who you are as person. If you're a decent person, we'll get along just fine  If you're a mean belligerent person, I don't care what you're gender is, I'll avoid you like the plague  >

When it comes down to it, I question the whole concept of passing, why must we shoehorn ourselves into two very narrow boxes of what society (and our trans community) thinks gender is? Yes, I absolutely understand the need for passing in our day to day existence, it can be very dangerous to be perceived as something "other" than completely male or female, especially by transphobic people who might wish to harm us.

Thanks Nero for posting these questions, I think the trans community needs to discuss these "taboo" topics and confront our own phobias.

zythyra

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting...

I went into transition assuming that all of your worst cast would be true.  I figured I would not pass and would not be accepted as female.  Well, for any one individual, that may turn out to be true, and there is no way to know ahead of time how it's all going to turn out.  In this case, if you need other people's approval for what you are doing, you're headed for trouble.  Transition is for people who can find love and acceptance within themselves, not need it from society.  You have to go in saying, "I don't care what anybody else thinks.  I have to do this for myself."

Quote from: Lisbeth on September 01, 2007, 11:26:18 AM

Quote from: buttercup on September 01, 2007, 01:14:01 AM
I think some comments here are way too harsh.  So basically, if you read between the lines, if you cannot pass as a female, do not transition, because society will not accept you as anything other than a male.  Very interesting...

I went into transition assuming that all of your worst cast would be true.  I figured I would not pass and would not be accepted as female.  Well, for any one individual, that may turn out to be true, and there is no way to know ahead of time how it's all going to turn out.  In this case, if you need other people's approval for what you are doing, you're headed for trouble.  Transition is for people who can find love and acceptance within themselves, not need it from society.  You have to go in saying, "I don't care what anybody else thinks.  I have to do this for myself."

I totally agree with you, Lisbeth. Although that takes a lot of strength many people (myself included) just don't have.

ciao,
Gina M.

If you're trying to pass as something, then that means you aren't it.  So as far as I know there's no such thing as unpassable women.  If someone is a woman, I could give a crap what they look like.

It's really not all that hard.

I really despise this weird segregation of passable/unpassable.  It's so internet.

Honestly... it really depends on the person standing infront of me....

Looks like a linebacker in a dress... horrable voice... but is acting female?  "Yes mam, no mam, so on and so forth..."  I hope "SHE" has a nice day...

Looks female but sounds like a guy... but very soft spoken and so on. "mam"

Looks female but acts like a man in a dress, has a bad voice, guzzling beer, spewing obcenities, and scratching there crotch <Or worse>  "Yes sir, no sir...  You make it hard to call you mam, your not acting like a lady...

Looks and sounds female but dosnt act it....  Hey sounds like my ex... and two of my best friends... though there obviously female, there more of tomboys...

Looks, sounds and acts female... duh "mam"

Looks male but dosnt sound it "Sir"

Looks female but is obviously trying not to, and trying not to sound it either. "Sir" with some difficulties...

Looks female and sounds female... just with a short haircut or something "Mam"...

Looks, sounds and acts like a man. duh "Yes sir"

Sounds female/male on phone <reguardless of who they really are> go by the name given and hope you dont make an ass of yourself....  Some GGs sound like men, some GM's sound like women<more rare> and it does make a TS's day when you deal with them as there gender over the phone reguardless of voice.  Years of customer service experiance at work 


Seriously It seems to be on a case by case bassis...  Where I live though, I generaly run into those horrable creatures known as Drag Queens...  I do go out of my way to call them sir, they are not women, even for the day... One or two I make exceptions for, and any new ones I do as well... but yeah...