Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Everybody in those groops, Have an undenyable sence of unity.

Trans are diverse and as seperated on issues as every cis person. the word cis and trans is the only difference between us. Yet we spend so much time trying to say the word trans isnt relavent.

and a
Trans woman is no differant to a
Cis woman.

People of colour dont say my skin colour is irelavent they said it is relavent. It shouldnt be but it is

Woman dont say being a woman is irelavet they say it is but it shouldnt be.

LGB dont say its irelavent either, they say it shouldnt be but it is.

Why? because it is relavent, it is a difference, it does matter. Not because we want it to be. But because others make it so by treating us different because of it.

And antill we can all band together towards common goals we will never have that same momentem.

Do stealth need to come out? No but those who are need their voices heard. And those that are out need to be the ones that listen. Because stealth are stealth because they face obsticles that some more open are privilaged not to have.

But corecting mis information i believe is our first ultimate war. Acceptence is getting their by its self.

I think the mis information used to justify the words use is what the argument needs to be about.

->-bleeped-<-? as far as i know ->-bleeped-<- means man in drag (transvestite)
Transexuals are called trany because their still seen as such.
M2F transgenders are called ->-bleeped-<- because we too are still seen as such.

Thats my argument about the word.
And the mis information is my reason for being hurt.
(Im not a ->-bleeped-<- im not a man in drag)

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 28, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Money, sympathy, lobbyists and polititians on thier side. Not to mention a whole lot of activists.

The racial movement? Yeah there are still pockets of racists on all sides but in general from what I see and experience, the racial aspect is getting along fine. sure you will have predominately white, black, hispanic, asian and a whole lot other communities. Doesn't indicate racism as much as people sharing common backgrounds and such.

The feminist movement? Yeah its all on the news how women make less than men. I really don't see this though. As a matter of fact quite a few married people I know, the woman makes more than the man. Yeah they do different jobs of course but the tables can also be turned. In the military, I don't know if it is still this way but was when I served, a male nurse was an enlisted soldier, a female nurse was a commisioned officer. Wow, how fair was that? I may be mistaken though but I believe that is the way it was.

The LGBT movement? Well just my feelings but I think a lot of times we are left out in the cold when the LGB's get something that they want. A lot of times I feel like we are nothing more than a few more numbers tacked onto the LGB to provide a little more strength. There is strength in numbers. the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" was a big indicator of just how important I believe we are in the equation. They forgot all about us it seems and I think they should have fought a little harder. Yeah I know they are still trying to allow transgenders to serve openly but... Just my opinion though.

No I don't think we can stand apart. I definately understand we need activists and I respect the hell out of them. I love people that stand up and embrace themselves as transgender without apology, regret and shame. But I definately know why we want to be stealth too. Because the world has kicked us around so much, have laughed at us, openly mocked us through entertainement venues, have threatened us, have murdered some of us and in some cases caused us to commit the "S" word. So definatly I can understand why someone would rather just fade into the shadows and become just another man or woman in the world.

You have to be in a privileged position to be publicly disclosed. I don't resent other people for not doing it, even if I do sometimes feel like it would make it better for everyone in the long run. But I was stealth for over a decade before I looked inside myself and realized that I didn't have to be. So I encourage everyone to do the same examination for themselves, whether maybe it's worth the hassle to be able to fight for their and other trans people's rights.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 08:24:33 AM
You have to be in a privileged position to be publicly disclosed. I don't resent other people for not doing it, even if I do sometimes feel like it would make it better for everyone in the long run. But I was stealth for over a decade before I looked inside myself and realized that I didn't have to be. So I encourage everyone to do the same examination for themselves, whether maybe it's worth the hassle to be able to fight for their and other trans people's rights.

I'm just in a ludicrous  position where I'm transitioning in a small suburb and I've lived in the same apt. building off a major University for the past 20 years. It's pretty ridiculous for me to be stealth. I like where I'm at and have no intension of moving,

Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

I've heard trap being used quite often about passable transwomen, but you may be right.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 28, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
Can we afford to stand apart?

What is the difference betwwen the.

Racial Movement?
Feminisme Movement?
LGB Movement?

In comparion to Trans?

Everybody in those groops, Have an undenyable sence of unity.

Trans are diverse and as seperated on issues as every cis person. the word cis and trans is the only difference between us. Yet we spend so much time trying to say the word trans isnt relavent.

and a
Trans woman is no differant to a
Cis woman.

People of colour dont say my skin colour is irelavent they said it is relavent. It shouldnt be but it is

Woman dont say being a woman is irelavet they say it is but it shouldnt be.

LGB dont say its irelavent either, they say it shouldnt be but it is.

Why? because it is relavent, it is a difference, it does matter. Not because we want it to be. But because others make it so by treating us different because of it.

And antill we can all band together towards common goals we will never have that same momentem.

Do stealth need to come out? No but those who are need their voices heard. And those that are out need to be the ones that listen. Because stealth are stealth because they face obsticles that some more open are privilaged not to have.

But corecting mis information i believe is our first ultimate war. Acceptence is getting their by its self.

I think the mis information used to justify the words use is what the argument needs to be about.

->-bleeped-<-? as far as i know ->-bleeped-<- means man in drag (transvestite)
Transexuals are called trany because their still seen as such.
M2F transgenders are called ->-bleeped-<- because we too are still seen as such.

Thats my argument about the word.
And the mis information is my reason for being hurt.
(Im not a ->-bleeped-<- im not a man in drag)

From my knowledge of the American Civil right's movement, there was a lot of diversity and lack of unity within it.  It definetly wasn't a coherent movement in it's totality and some civil rights leaders had much different goals in mind (ie, Malcolm X vs Martin Luther King Jr).  And feminists don't seem to always agree amoungst themselves either.  Usually, ideological battles will have some separation to a degree.  It's just important for us to all fight for the bigger picture rather than the small differences.  I've seen some lgbt organizations go out of there way for us, and while they could do more, most of these things are heading in the right direction.

In regards to ending transgender discrimination in the military, it will likely never happen.  Chuck Hagel discussed this recently and said the situation is different because of the medical component involved with most of us, though he said he is open to reviewing the policy. 

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

yes, alot of pretty new half's on youtube

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 07:04:19 AM
Money, sympathy, lobbyists and polititians on thier side. Not to mention a whole lot of activists.

The racial movement? Yeah there are still pockets of racists on all sides but in general from what I see and experience, the racial aspect is getting along fine. sure you will have predominately white, black, hispanic, asian and a whole lot other communities. Doesn't indicate racism as much as people sharing common backgrounds and such.

The feminist movement? Yeah its all on the news how women make less than men. I really don't see this though. As a matter of fact quite a few married people I know, the woman makes more than the man. Yeah they do different jobs of course but the tables can also be turned. In the military, I don't know if it is still this way but was when I served, a male nurse was an enlisted soldier, a female nurse was a commisioned officer. Wow, how fair was that? I may be mistaken though but I believe that is the way it was.

The LGBT movement? Well just my feelings but I think a lot of times we are left out in the cold when the LGB's get something that they want. A lot of times I feel like we are nothing more than a few more numbers tacked onto the LGB to provide a little more strength. There is strength in numbers. the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" was a big indicator of just how important I believe we are in the equation. They forgot all about us it seems and I think they should have fought a little harder. Yeah I know they are still trying to allow transgenders to serve openly but... Just my opinion though.

No I don't think we can stand apart. I definately understand we need activists and I respect the hell out of them. I love people that stand up and embrace themselves as transgender without apology, regret and shame. But I definately know why we want to be stealth too. Because the world has kicked us around so much, have laughed at us, openly mocked us through entertainement venues, have threatened us, have murdered some of us and in some cases caused us to commit the "S" word. So definatly I can understand why someone would rather just fade into the shadows and become just another man or woman in the world.

Did you stop reading my post wear you quote stops?

A lot of the differences these movements have now, they didn't have to start with. (the gained momentum)

If you take my post as some kind of "This would be easier if you wasn't stealth" you couldn't be further from the point I was trying to make. I was hoping that, I was pointing out that we could gain more momentum without this internalised blame game. That we need unity if we are ever going to gain that same momentum. And that, that means listening to those that are stealth because the very reasons they are is because they face problems that those that our out a privileged not to have.

And that most of the problems we face are as a result of misinformation. And that in order to gain momentum the true picture of what its like needs to be painted, and that means tackling misinformation. The public need to be aware of what our problems are before they know how to help.

But we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, find those common goals, find that unity. (gain that momentum)
Does that mean I'm saying that you have to stop being stealth and march? no. Just the other day a stealth person pointed out a VERY important fact concerning an overlooked factor in this very thread. But they often feel un noticed, I'm saying Its about time we all listened to each other. Because that stealth person made the most important point on this entire issue. And in my opinion if we all took notice of it we wouldn't be arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

We would all be talking trying to find the best solution to our common problem's. And the biggest one by far is misinformation. Because its misinformation that is the main cause of a lot of our other problems.

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 29, 2014, 12:14:45 PM
Did you stop reading my post wear you quote stops?

A lot of the differences these movements have now, they didn't have to start with. (the gained momentum)

If you take my post as some kind of "This would be easier if you wasn't stealth" you couldn't be further from the point I was trying to make. I was hoping that, I was pointing out that we could gain more momentum without this internalised blame game. That we need unity if we are ever going to gain that same momentum. And that, that means listening to those that are stealth because the very reasons they are is because they face problems that those that our out a privileged not to have.

And that most of the problems we face are as a result of misinformation. And that in order to gain momentum the true picture of what its like needs to be painted, and that means tackling misinformation. The public need to be aware of what our problems are before they know how to help.

But we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves, find those common goals, find that unity. (gain that momentum)
Does that mean I'm saying that you have to stop being stealth and march? no. Just the other day a stealth person pointed out a VERY important fact concerning an overlooked factor in this very thread. But they often feel un noticed, I'm saying Its about time we all listened to each other. Because that stealth person made the most important point on this entire issue. And in my opinion if we all took notice of it we wouldn't be arguing about who's right and who's wrong.

We would all be talking trying to find the best solution to our common problem's. And the biggest one by far is misinformation. Because its misinformation that is the main cause of a lot of our other problems.

No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 12:27:55 PM
No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

we're the minority of the minority

In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 05:16:00 PM
In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

so how do we get 700,000 people to activate.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 29, 2014, 12:27:55 PM
No, I read the whole post and actually though it was interresting. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these other groups have a tremndous amount of backing from sympathisers to their plight to politicians trying to stay or get into positions of power. A lot of backing that we seeming don't have and possibly never will have. Our numbers really aren't that high or high enough to get the attention of the politicians that can change the law. I definately agree that we need to be unified and lobby for what we want. Really the whole LGBT is a good thing but often times it seems that we, the Ts, are often overlooked. Or that's just the way I feel sometimes.

It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 29, 2014, 05:16:00 PM
In 2008 there were an estimated 700,000 trans people in the U.S., and that's a conservative estimate given that it's based on people who self-identify. That's a lot of people! Imagine what the numbers are like now that there's more visibility, and imagine if we try to count people who are closeted. That's more than enough for a civil rights movement.

Is that number trans individuals? as far as a petition goes, id count for 6 votes. unless it was restricted to trans voters. because of course 2 of my sisters would vote, both theirs bfs, not to mention my dad. I could rely on a few good friends too 3/6. so imagine how big that number would be if you added supportive friends and fam to it?

Note, I'm UK. I wouldn't be able to vote US petitions. just pointing out that none trans supporters would defo throw that number into over drive.

Quote from: Jen on May 29, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Yeah it does seem to be on the edge getting ready to roll downhill but... Will something happen that hijacks the movement the other way? Like you I am warily optimistic.

Quote from: Jen on May 29, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
It will get moving in earnest once mainstream progressives take up the banner, which, like you say, they haven't yet.  I honestly believe, however, that it is on the verge of happening.  I am not sure what happens when things pick up momentum.  I am cautiously optimistic about how society will handle it, but ofc I am worried too.

Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 30, 2014, 09:23:30 AM
Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

I think everybody does this at some point. It took me a while to understand how  (girls with guns) could still identify as female without any desire for the op. But what I did know is that before I could even begin to understand this, I would need to hae an idea of what its like in that experience. My viewpoint was (but woman means vagina) and then I realised, cis extremists would say that to me, even though I want the op. So I was essentially guilty of the same mind set some negative and anti trans people have concerning me. And since my defence is but penis is just the body. I realised then, that I still looking at them form the external idea of woman, and not just the internal experience. And was suddenly feeling very silly.

I still don't understand it. but its more in the same way I understand how a cis person couldn't fully understand me.
(even in the same jar sweets have variety). Its this as to why I find it easyer to come away from gender to exsplain ourselves. And focus much more on why we make our choices and not what those choices are.

It is always the WHY behind the what that matters. And that why is because were human.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on May 29, 2014, 10:51:51 AM
Clarification:

The word 'trap' doesn't really apply to transsexuals.  It's more applicable to pre hrt passable cross dressers.  The word for us would be more accurately "newhalf"

It is a 4chan meme that pretty much is synonymous with transwomen and mtf CD's (Usually young and passable).  I don't think it has ever been used to describe drag queens or transmen.  While it is impossible to accurately gauge 4chan do to the nature of the place; I'd say it is more a term of endearment--albeit by ->-bleeped-<-s--than a negative context.

I don't think I've ever heard of that word being used in any context in real life, it's a 4chan thing which--to no surprise to me I might add--became an internet meme.

90% of all memes come from that place, 8% from ->-bleeped-<-, 2% everywhere else on the internet.

-AM

Quote from: mandonlym on May 30, 2014, 09:23:30 AM
Working on helping it along... I had my personal breakthrough moment this week when I had to confront my own transphobia about making internal distinctions between cis-normative and non-cis-normative trans people, and realizing that this is exactly how people behaved in the early days of the gay movement. Regardless of how one comes to be trans, everyone deserves to be treated equally. I've been spouting my privileged, exceptionalist bs for years without even realizing it. Time to fight for everyone.

It's rare that anybody ever changes their mind about how they think of other people.  Even cooler that you came to that conclusion on your own.  That takes not only introspection, but also a nice big helping of empathy.  Pretty cool .

Since I was composing a blog post about trans slurs when this topic came up here, I decided to share it. Especially since this discussion encouraged me to take my time and step up my game.

Same trigger warnings apply as within this thread. A further warning, there is some NSFW language contained within the post so be warned. Not a lot, but some.

http://passingandfailinginparadise.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/->-bleeped-<-/