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Kind of an awkward question....

Started by Superstacy00, June 07, 2014, 10:33:34 AM

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Superstacy00

I don't really have anyone else to talk to about this issue so I hope I can find some help on here...

My (Mtf)Husband and I have come to a compromise about our situation, one that seems like it will work for the both of us.. He started low dose of hrt a few weeks ago and I've agreed to let him express his/herself with clothes and he/she has agreed not to fully transition. We've been working on this compromise for a while and we both agree that it can work for us.

But here is where the awkward question comes in; I just want to know If I'm allowed to have limits; Lines that can't be crossed?

For example, he asked me if he could buy some underwear that pulls and tucks his manhood and I am just really uncomfortable with this. I can't even explain why this is so uncomfortable for me, but it is. So I asked him if It was absolutely necessary, which prompted a huge fight about me not supporting him. But I am supporting him, I even helped him/her buy sports bras and yoga pants from Victoria's secret. It seems like something so small caused a big fight between us. I just don't understand. Can't I have limits? Especially because we both agreed that we would be taking it slow, but nothing is going slow right now. It feels like everything it speeding towards me like a freight train. And all I ask is he not get those underwear... Am I crossing a line by asking him not to do this? I've been supportive of everything else he is doing...

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Bombadil

It's great that you are trying to work with your spouse. I can't imagine how hard this is for you.

I don't know how you and your spouse defined "fully transition" so I may be off the mark. I think if I were your spouse, I would feel like you didn't really want to honor the compromise if you limit the clothing she can wear. It would be confusing at the least. "You can wear this, but you can't wear that".

Ultimately, this isn't about a pair of underwear. It's about both of your comfort level. You are uncomfortable because this is a huge change and not going slow. I'm sure it's also something you feel little control over. Your spouse is uncomfortable because she is feeling unsupported and dysphoria.






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Emily1996

The fact that you write he/she is not a good sign already, I know it's not your fault, but well if that's the life your spouse want to have, it's not like she should have limits... Do you have limits on expressing your femmininity? I don't think so... Then if you feel like this is too much, maybe you should talk to her about it, and maybe you aren't meant for each other... I don't know but really she should be the one making the limits, because it's her life D: I'm not married so whateva I'm not an expert... Still, if she wants to full transition you should support her all the way, without limits...
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Jess42

I know this may be a hard thing for you to accept but I truly belive it may be more symbolic to you than just a pair of undies. You must love each other because you have compromised. That in itself is extrememly wonderous. No big deal especially if you and your spouse are going out and your spouse as being herself. No telltale bulges. It may even curb some dysphoria. After all it is only clothing. Are you afraid if your spouse starts tucking that eventually it may go farther? I really wouldn't think it would since you two are still together and seem to love each other enough to make compromises and to a lot of us wanting to transition it is the end of the road to our marriages. No compromises there and maybe never really was true love for the person. But you guys seem to be different. I would say don't sweat it hon. It is just clothing after all, it's not like your spouse will go out looking for someone else when you two have each other. I wish my ex could have been at least half as supproting as you because I would have stayed with her forever.
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Tessa James

Superstacy you are commendable for wanting and working to be supportive of your partner's transition.  It is really difficult to know where and how far we will go.  Many of us start out with a road map that is discarded along the way.  I recall telling my wife that I would stop if it became too hard.  I had no idea how strong my need to identify as feminine would be and I was one of those that went full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes.  Once I accepted myself it felt like lightning had struck me there was no turning back on the truth.   It became clear to me that hiding was toxic to my mental health and I was out completely well before HRT.

What course you and your partner embrace is something you two will uniquely create.  IMO no one can grant you individual limits but you and the limits you two agree on may end up being flexed and bent.  We can share experience but again, no one can give you or your partner permissions.  There is loss and fear involved but you can do it.  I have no illusions of permanence but my wife and I are doing far better than i expected.  We recognize that above all, we really do love each other regardless of gender.

One of the challenges my therapist gave me early on was "what are you willing to give up to transition?"  In my case it became clear that "everything about being a man" is my answer.  Your partner may have another answer and many people here at Susan's are happy to reach other plateaus of comfort and identity. 

Best of luck to you two!
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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muffinpants

I'm going to agree with most of the posts before me... transition is not really a choice, I don't think. It's a necessity... I assume, since she has started hrt, that she see's a therapist? I think it would be a really good idea if you could go with her a few times, or perhaps see a therapist yourself. To answer your question: personally, I don't think it is okay to impose limits. She is not doing harm to anyone, she is just trying to express herself. I know that if I'm told what I can or can't do, I react extremely negatively. It's one of those things which I find presumptuous and rude- therefore intolerable. I can understand why this caused a fight. Especially if she has those yoga pants! That's prolly what she wants em for. Anyways, good luck! I really hope yall talk this over more thoroughly and possibly involve a third party, keep us updated!
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JoanneB

My compliments to you Stacy for being so brave. I have always believed that dealing with all "This" is much harder on the spouse than for the TG. I spent a lifetime trying to figure all this out with little success. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it must be for a spouse who has had only days, weeks, months, or even a few years. You certainly have my sympathy.

I do believe it is perfectly fair for you ask for a time-out. Being "Supportive" is one thing. Being hit with "Hi hon, I am going on HRT", followed by "Hon, can you help me shop for clothes" followed by whatever else bam, bam bam must be difficult at best to adapt to. Plus perhaps still the whole shock and host of assorted feelings still racing around after having the T-Bomb dropped on you.

If it weren't for a lot of very difficult to have very open and honest communications between my wife and I, I know there is no way our marriage would have survived these past 5 years. This is followed by respecting each others limits, avoiding TMI, and most importantly avoiding too much too fast. Being supportive is wonderful. Being trampled on is not.

I still do not know if I will ever want/need to go full-time. My wife cannot promise that she can/will stay at my side if I ever do. Nor is it fair of me to ask her to just as it is not fair of her to ask me not not to go full-time. She has not been shy about reminding me that she did not marry a woman and how she likes men and what they can offer her. She knew 30 years ago about me being TG. At that time transitioning was behind me. Been there tried that, wasn't for me. She also does not want to stand between me and my ultimate happiness. Just as I don't want to stand between her and her happiness.

Just like everything else in life, compromises need to be made in a marriage. Just like everything else in life things change throughout a marriage. What worked last week may not next month. Back to forging new compromises, if possible, and if it makes sense. The sad and overwhelming statistics say most marriages do not last after dropping the T-Bomb. On the plus side, these days 1/2 never do to start with.
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Sayra

As an SO of someone who is still deciding how far to transition, I am standing right here in the exact same shoes in the exact same moment. There's a couple of things that I think might need a little clarification.

One is that in any relationship, regardless of who the two parties are, what they do and how they live, each partner is fully entitled to set boundaries and expectations within that relationship to ensure it's success. Lifestyle choices to little habits, they're things that we choose to do. These are also the things that set our loved ones on fire when it's something they're not happy with. There are spoken, unspoken, expected, unexpected and constantly changing boundaries. Especially when it comes to the point where your partner is choosing to change gender. Doesn't matter how far, where, or when. I'll give a fairly benign example: I'm married to a partner, and say he chooses to start hanging out with lots of young people who like to drink. I don't drink, and I'm not fond or accepting of his behaviour when he does drink. This is a boundary that I have set. This is a boundary that is specific to me. If my partner feels that this is unreasonable and will make him thusly so unhappy as to be happier without this boundary, then we part ways. I might still love him, but it's something that we don't agree on, and neither party is willing to change their standpoint and compromise.

Second thing is that the issues we as SO's see as important, aren't the same for each of us. It's the same on the other side of the issue where the loved one is changing and they don't know how they want to get to where they think they need to be. Each side will see different things as triggers and each of us will be different. I don't particularly see the use in judging whether Stacy has the right to see things her way is correct or incorrect according to the issue at hand. She sees things the way she sees them. Her feelings as they are to her are justified.

Those things said, I know where she stands. What it does come down to is the question: are we right for each other anymore? I'm facing it this week too. There's a line that moves for us, for where we are comfortable and where we are not. It's different for every couple and it's different for every SO. How far is too far for me to stay and still be happy? This question applies to pretty much anything that is an issue within a relationship, not just transitioning. But, Stacy, that's really up to you. I think maybe seeing someone professional might help you find where you feel that point of no return might be.

Transitioning has a sliding scale of end points which are different for each individual. Some might be ok with just hormones and others feel the need to go through SRS and all the other surgeries. A few of the replies here have been from those who are along this path, and you can see that their point of view of transitioning even differ. All that we can say as an SO is where you feel you need to draw the line. You've been a wonderful partner to someone who needed your support in a difficult time in their life, and one thing that I think we all forget is that the SO is affected. No, clothing and looks don't hurt anyone, but it changes how we feel. It changes our perspective of our loved one, the life we live together, and eventually it will change how people perceive us, the significant other of someone who has transitioned.

The changes that might come with staying are something we have to consider. Our loved one going from the person we expected to a person we didn't expect (sometimes only, since sometimes the loved one does explain beforehand), is hard. But that's the same in any relationship. We change as we age and we change as life goes on. The choice is yours Stacy and no one would fault your choice of either. We waiver in our support almost minute to minute some days and other days we're stronger than the Rock of Gibraltar. We are human. We are allowed to be fearful of the future, to be unsure of where we stand, and we are more than allowed to make the choice of where we draw the line. These are things that apply to EVERY relationship, so these ones are no different and are still subject to the same options. Whether your partner agrees is where the issue lies.

Good luck to you both Stacy. We're doing our best to hold strong and find a balance that works for the both of us. You will too.
S.
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Katrinka

I think you and I and several other people here are encountering g the same fears. It isn't fair to be left in the dark, nor is it fair to vilify a SO who isn't willing or able to stand by as her man become a woman. We are in completely uncharted waters. I have asked my SO to slow down too, and I really don't think that makes us unsupportive. I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of the replies that are telling us to either fully commit or jump ship. Marriage takes work and compromise even without TG in the mix.
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warlockmaker

I have similar issues with with my SO, we are somewhat seperated but plan to stay married and we do alot of things together as a family, and we have a 12 year old daughter. She has bee fantastically supportive but with some reservations and concerns, especially when to talk over this change with our daughter. Plus I feel she wants me to kinda take the Tomboy approach and I plan to take it the full distance. She is just begining to accept that it will be a complete change with FFS and SRS but I sense that this route is not her favored route. We have discussed this and other matters as I believe we need to communicate openly. She knows I'm still in the clost and thus she does not face the reality of my commitment on a daily basis. She and I are the same height and size all the way down to shoes - so clothes are easy and not an issue. Its a work in progress.
When we first start our journey the perception and moral values all dramatically change in wonderment. As we evolve further it all becomes normal again but the journey has changed us forever.

SRS January 21st,  2558 (Buddhist calander), 2015
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Cindy

Quote from: Katrinka on June 09, 2014, 01:58:59 AM
I think you and I and several other people here are encountering g the same fears. It isn't fair to be left in the dark, nor is it fair to vilify a SO who isn't willing or able to stand by as her man become a woman. We are in completely uncharted waters. I have asked my SO to slow down too, and I really don't think that makes us unsupportive. I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of the replies that are telling us to either fully commit or jump ship. Marriage takes work and compromise even without TG in the mix.

I fully agree with you. OK I'm married and my wife accepts me, I'm FT but due to illness we live apart. I told her on our first date that I was trans so she did know. That said for many women they marry the man of their dreams/heart and rightly expect that he will be there for her. To then be told that they are TG is a hard cruel blow.
I am in admiration of the wives who try to be supportive and very critical of the TG partner who, lets be truthful, lied. OK I can understand the desire and hope of natal male TG to somehow cure themselves into being men by marrying, but it was and is a lie.

As for boundaries, yes of course they should be set and either accepted or the issue decided upon by the tragedy of a breakup. It is in my mind grossly unfair for a straight woman to be 'fooled' into a marriage with a person who is hiding such a secret.

That said I obviously know the agony of being transgender, but part of accepting yourself as being transgender is being honest with herself and with the people she loves.

I just hope that your situation resolves in a way that isn't tragic for both of you.

My thoughts are with you.

Cindy
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Dee Marshall

Cindy,

Don't be so quick to villify. I've been married for more than 30 years. I only came out to my wife this very month. Why? Because I didn't even figure out I'm trans until very recently.

I feel very strongly for the SOs who posted, my wife is in the boat with them. I don't want them to assume that in every case dishonesty holds.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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Sayra

Hey Dee! You're very correct in your statement. Those of us who take all this time to discuss and work on the balance to create an environment to stay and work together at our relationships know that it isn't always deception. For some, yes, it's denial and deception, but for others it's part of the self-discovery as we grow.

Still, either way, it's hard on us SO's. Not harder than for our trans partners, but equally hard (in my humble opinion). I spent a great deal of time doing the honest talk with my partner this weekend because of the reason Stacy put up. I felt a boundary of mine that I didn't know I had, being pushed. In turn, there was fear of me leaving (even though that wasn't what I said, just how it was interpreted) and a shift in thinking about how far to transition.

The longer I have spent contemplating our conversation, the less sure I am about my boundaries. Like any couple, the individuals change and discover, and I learned a fair bit about myself this weekend. Perhaps the most important thing I learned was the perception of being TG. My understanding is so very different than my partner. We agree on many facets, but the baseline sure makes a difference! The other thing was how we defined supportive vs what others define as supportive. Just as there are variations in human beings there are variations in their state of being!

Sorry for the somewhat random wall of text, but the few of us who faced some challenges this week maybe needed boosts from those walking the same rocky path. Hope this week is better for all of us.
S.
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Katrinka

My therapist advised to call them agreements rather than boundaries. Agreements can be negotiated; boundaries are fixed. Sort of metaphorical. Anyway, that being said I know I still am at a place that I have lines I don't feel alright crossing myself, and I hope that my Spouse will respect those and not guilt trip me or think I'm being unfair. I probably think about this issue more than I should, but I can't stop because I keep hoping that I'll find some angle where this isn't really happening. I hope that I will be alright with new agreements...no one "signs up" for this.
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Sayra

I like the term your therapist has chosen. Think we should use it too. Right now, this is fresh for us. Of course we spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating the state of our lives. All I can do is break it down unto manageable parts. Live each day as it comes. Don't need to make it worse do we? You're right, we didn't sign up, but that's what we've got.
S.
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helen2010

Quote from: Dee Walker on June 09, 2014, 12:27:48 PM
Cindy,

Don't be so quick to villify. I've been married for more than 30 years. I only came out to my wife this very month. Why? Because I didn't even figure out I'm trans until very recently.

I feel very strongly for the SOs who posted, my wife is in the boat with them. I don't want them to assume that in every case dishonesty holds.

Dee

Ditto.  One thing that I have learned on Susans is not to generalise and not to disrespect another's experience.  For most of my marriage I had no idea that I had an issue, I thought that I was normal for decades and it was only in the last decade that I began to understand that I was dysphoric and was then diagnosed as TG.  Next month we will have been married 29 years.  I can assure you that I was not dishonest at any stage of my relationship except around year 19 when I first saw a counsellor and took time (3 months) to digest and to understand my situation and identity, and to share it with my wife.

Aisla
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Katrinka

Cindy

I think you have laid things out accurately. Straight cis-women SO's (three terms I NEVER KNEW existed, nor that I would use for myself) are not crazy or mean or bitchy or closeminded or whatever negative term applies for feeling betrayed, angry, sad, devestated, heartbroken, hopeless, and hopeful (even wishfully). We had no idea what was REALLY happening. It's like our SO's were secret agents or spies. For me, I know I love the PERSON inside my husband, but I also love my husband. I don't know his female version (I'm not going to use his moniker here because I am not going to Out him). I actually don't think I'm going to like her, purely out of anger. That is so childish, I know, but I don't want to like her. I don't want to love her. I feel like I'm in an arranged marriage where one "learns to love" the partner. I didn't have any choice in this marriage.
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sad panda

Yes, it is completely fair to set limits, but just remember that those are limits of what you will accept to keep the relationship, you can't limit your SO from making her own choices. So ask yourself why you are setting limits. I don't think it's healthy for either of you to compromise on this issue if your SO is insisting that you are not being supportive. It must be really hard to have your partner come out to you all of a sudden though... :(  ugh, it must be so hard.

Quote from: Katrinka on June 11, 2014, 12:48:11 AM
Cindy

I think you have laid things out accurately. Straight cis-women SO's (three terms I NEVER KNEW existed, nor that I would use for myself) are not crazy or mean or bitchy or closeminded or whatever negative term applies for feeling betrayed, angry, sad, devestated, heartbroken, hopeless, and hopeful (even wishfully). We had no idea what was REALLY happening. It's like our SO's were secret agents or spies. For me, I know I love the PERSON inside my husband, but I also love my husband. I don't know his female version (I'm not going to use his moniker here because I am not going to Out him). I actually don't think I'm going to like her, purely out of anger. That is so childish, I know, but I don't want to like her. I don't want to love her. I feel like I'm in an arranged marriage where one "learns to love" the partner. I didn't have any choice in this marriage.

All those feelings are completely fair... ugh, it breaks my heart to read all these stories. I don't know why people do this to their SOs. I try to understand it but I can't really, even as someone who has undergone transition. I told my boyfriend the second I was even considering it, and he wasn't my boyfriend yet at that point.
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Sayra

Panda, the agreements we set up with our loved ones are to maintain a balance that we are comfortable with. I can't speak for the others but for me, the agreements are where I'm no longer comfortable, and I do not feel supportive any longer. If Kat's loved one won't hear her on how she feels unhappy and uncomfortable but is not willing to let her go, then she is confined by expectations to be angry, resentful, hurt, for the remainder of thier time together because that's what her loved one wants?

The explanation of my husbands take on the effect of TG is harsh. He sees it as a chronic disease. Mind you, it's one that makes him happy. So, if I up and just walk away from my loved one who feels he is ill, I am a selfish bitch. If I stay while he changes without my full understanding or support, I am a resentful martyr.

There is no solution where everyone is happy all the time, never would be. But I want to work hard together to find the balance where we are each happy a lot of the time and I know it's acheiveable, just a matter of hard work. In Kat's case, I don't know if the two parties are on the same page, in fact I doubt they are. That doesn't mean they won't ever be. Just that it's a bumpy road right now to get there.

If you think our stories are heartbreaking, they are. We are heartrended that this is what has become of our relationships. But believe me when I say that there is worse out there. I can always look at my life and be grateful for what I do have.

Hugs for this week!
S.
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helen2010

Quote from: Sayra on June 11, 2014, 01:48:34 PM
Panda, the agreements we set up with our loved ones are to maintain a balance that we are comfortable with. I can't speak for the others but for me, the agreements are where I'm no longer comfortable, and I do not feel supportive any longer. If Kat's loved one won't hear her on how she feels unhappy and uncomfortable but is not willing to let her go, then she is confined by expectations to be angry, resentful, hurt, for the remainder of thier time together because that's what her loved one wants?

The explanation of my husbands take on the effect of TG is harsh. He sees it as a chronic disease. Mind you, it's one that makes him happy. So, if I up and just walk away from my loved one who feels he is ill, I am a selfish bitch. If I stay while he changes without my full understanding or support, I am a resentful martyr.

There is no solution where everyone is happy all the time, never would be. But I want to work hard together to find the balance where we are each happy a lot of the time and I know it's acheiveable, just a matter of hard work. In Kat's case, I don't know if the two parties are on the same page, in fact I doubt they are. That doesn't mean they won't ever be. Just that it's a bumpy road right now to get there.

If you think our stories are heartbreaking, they are. We are heartrended that this is what has become of our relationships. But believe me when I say that there is worse out there. I can always look at my life and be grateful for what I do have.

Hugs for this week!

Sayra

Thank you.  Your perspective and experience is very similar to my wife's.  This is an ongoing discussion and negotiation.  Deep, long term relationships are worth working on, commitment and fighting for.  We have had our rocky moments, particularly when I didn't understand my destination.   But we did get through this and ironically our relationship is the stronger for this.

Safe travels

Aisla
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