Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 03:01:33 AM

Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience,

Because trans heavily involves brain anatomy, and that we are a very long way away from mapping the brain fully, our ability to observe the medical cause is limited, but that doesn't make it any less valid. The whole, we don't understand the brain therefore it must be a mental illness, cop out just doesn't cut it.

There have been a few small victories towards finding the medical cause over the last decade or so, such as an initial identification of possible genes that can cause things, and top level identification of the size of parts of the brain. Sure a full picture cannot be drawn until we can map and understand every connection, but its a start.

Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.

I think differentiating between transgender and intersex by calling intersex a medical condition while transgender is not is incredibly offensive and not the kind of thing I'd expect to hear on a support forum for transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a formal medical diagnosis that is every bit as real and physical as being intersex. The brain is a physical part of the body. As a transgender male, I am diagnosed with a medical condition and am going through medical treatment, it's not just an identity.

QuoteMeanwhile intersex children are still being mutilated without the ability to consent. Calling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.

Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.

This is false. There are numerous studies proving a biological basis for gender dysphoria, including brain scans that show that transgender individuals have the brain patterns of the gender they should have been born as. The "subjective experience" you speak of as if it's the only criteria by which gender dysphoria can be diagnosed is no different from the "subjective experience" used to diagnose a myriad of other medical conditions.

For example, I have bipolar disorder. Did I have to get a brain scan or blood test to get diagnosed? No, my psychiatrist looked at my lifelong medical history, interviewed me personally, consulted the DSM V to compare my symptoms with the official criteria of the disorder, and made her diagnosis because it is a physical condition that originates in the brain and presents with consistent, medically verifiable symptoms. By your logic, my disorder shouldn't be lumped in with "medically diagnosable" conditions like Celiac Disease or Cerebral Palsy because it's taking attention away from people who are "really" sick. You may not think that gender dysphoria is diagnosable, but the medical community very much disagrees.

Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 12, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
What you just said about your friend being forced to go through the trans* pathway because she is 47 XXY makes me wonder something. Given that I am XY and also that I was born with a vagina and labeled female at birth, would I still be forced down this trans pathway if I were to transition to male? Or would I be automatically given surgeries and T and everything I need to do that because of my chromosomes? I would love to see the look of confusion and ignorance on some insurance pencil pusher's face if I were to pursue insurance coverage for a transition to male given my male genotype.

I am not sure of that and it may also depends on where you live. I know where I live that people who are intersex get like a "free pass" to transition so to speak so many transgender are very interesteed in being dignosed, im not sure if it only for certain types or for all types of intersex which you can prove? I just know I got a friend who is trans and intersex and since it very difficult to gain permission like a normal trans person he was told he should just prove he was intersex and then it would be alot more easy for him to get permission as an advice. I think it so because the goverment is pretty binary here and there not interesteed in people being "somehow in the middle" whenever its due to transition or due to how you where born.
so if you are transgender without any intersex condition then they will try to make sure you are either 100% woman or man and go all the way, or convince you that it better you stay in your curent gender if you are not all that binary. But if you are intersex and you can somehow say "im already 10%-50%-60% male/female or whatever to say to convince them, then they will think that they should help you being fixed into one binary gender of male or female.

it all about binary as I see it, but I dont have so many exemples beside my friend and another guy I talked to because we dont really have an intersex comunity here so its difficult to gain informations.
as said this probably depends also alot where you live and other facts as well.

Quote from: Olivia P on June 13, 2014, 03:08:34 AM
Because trans heavily involves brain anatomy, and that we are a very long way away from mapping the brain fully, our ability to observe the medical cause is limited, but that doesn't make it any less valid. The whole, we don't understand the brain therefore it must be a mental illness, cop out just doesn't cut it.

There have been a few small victories towards finding the medical cause over the last decade or so, such as an initial identification of possible genes that can cause things, and top level identification of the size of parts of the brain. Sure a full picture cannot be drawn until we can map and understand every connection, but its a start.

Yeah but even if we could brain scan, would we just use that tech to deny people HRT that could get it from the system now? And transgender has a complex treatment that you could never do pre-emptively, it's too invasive. So no amount of further medical recognition is going to help transgender people without some serious precedents.

Meanwhile we can screen babies for most intersex conditions. They are terms that refer to categorically different things and I don't understand why trans people need that label too. They're approaching it as if not being intersex hurts their validity, which is ridiculous.

Quote from: Klaus on June 13, 2014, 03:15:55 AM
I think differentiating between transgender and intersex by calling intersex a medical condition while transgender is not is incredibly offensive and not the kind of thing I'd expect to hear on a support forum for transgender people. Gender dysphoria is a formal medical diagnosis that is every bit as real and physical as being intersex. The brain is a physical part of the body. As a transgender male, I am diagnosed with a medical condition and am going through medical treatment, it's not just an identity.

Oh, eesh. you decide what to get offended over, not me... if you look back at my quote you might notice that i just differentiated intersex from just being an identity, i never said being trans is not a medical condition. I think it's mildly offensive that trans people consistently try to appropriate the intersex label, which will not benefit them, when they generally don't care about, advocate for or understand the needs of intersex people.

Though yeah, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, transgender is a huge umbrella term. And it's not medically or practically similar to intersex, but that doesn't invalidate it. This is the problem. You can't take the intersex label just because not having it makes you feel invalid. Trans people don't need to be called intersexed, and some trans people might even find that offensive, cause intersex implies an incomplete sexual development and is not primarily about the brain. Trans people become sexually mature. Again, just very different conditions, intersex is already a pretty broad umbrella term to begin with. Neither is more valid, tough one is more medically understood, but... anyway, they are very different. It would be intellectually lazy to call trans people intersex.

QuoteThis is false. There are numerous studies proving a biological basis for gender dysphoria, including brain scans that show that transgender individuals have the brain patterns of the gender they should have been born as. The "subjective experience" you speak of as if it's the only criteria by which gender dysphoria can be diagnosed is no different from the "subjective experience" used to diagnose a myriad of other medical conditions.

For example, I have bipolar disorder. Did I have to get a brain scan or blood test to get diagnosed? No, my psychiatrist looked at my lifelong medical history, interviewed me personally, consulted the DSM V to compare my symptoms with the official criteria of the disorder, and made her diagnosis because it is a physical condition that originates in the brain and presents with consistent, medically verifiable symptoms. By your logic, my disorder shouldn't be lumped in with "medically diagnosable" conditions like Celiac Disease or Cerebral Palsy because it's taking attention away from people who are "really" sick. You may not think that gender dysphoria is diagnosable, but the medical community very much disagrees.

You are filling in those assumptions though... you're projecting. I never said anything about being "really" sick. Or about validity. It's not about validity at all, so....

I mean, the fact that you assume I'm invalidating you by calling you not intersex speaks volumes to why you want to be called intersex.

Gender dysphoria CANNOT be handled like an intersex condition. It's not even similar, and beyond that I
it has no clinical picture, no warning signs, no identifiable genetic component, mystery age of onset, vague and variable symptoms beyond literally claiming to have it, and needs a highly individualized course of treatment. Of course it's valid, but it is not an intersex condition. Nuh uh. And people with gender dysphoria can only be hurt by gaining the intersex label. It won't fix fears of invalidity either.

Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
no identifiable genetic component

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15045-maletofemale-transsexualism-gene-found.html

QuoteThe work "supports the notion that transsexualism has a biological basis rather than being due to psychosocial factors in early childhood," he says. "However the finding does not explain all male-to-female transsexuals, suggesting that multiple genetic factors are involved."

QuoteHarley agrees that many more genes related to male-to-female transsexualism probably remain to be discovered.

QuoteA better understanding of this would also help in assigning sex to children born with ambiguous genitalia, which is a much more common condition than transsexualism, Harley says.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

Quote from: Olivia P on June 13, 2014, 09:00:26 AM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15045-maletofemale-transsexualism-gene-found.html

k, but it is far from clinically relevant

By the way, if that's what I think it is, that was a study on the number of CAG repeats, which is a normal variation of the androgen receptor gene, and the difference from cis men was very mild. Basically those results mean that MTFs are on average (not consistently on an individual level) a tiny bit less androgen receptive than cis men.

That's different than identifying a genetic error that causes a specific condition. It's just demonstrating a slight statistical anomaly.

So, that article is a fantastic piece of misinformation, but they just want hits... of course, people love to use those titles to make their points without understanding what was even studied so, whatevs.

For those interested, this is from that study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3402034_nihms369145f1.jpg

You can see the differences between the cis male and mtfs was minimal, especially becuase cis males had a much better sample size, though some MTFs had a lot of CAG repeats, which means a less functional androgen receptor, so in a small number of cases there could be a more direct link, but that would result in a feminized body as well as brain, because it would resemble androgen insensitivity. It would not cause the brain to be *more* feminized than the body, because they were feminized by the same process.

That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion.  There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition.  Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!

Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion.  There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition.  Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!

Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?

Yah, it would only matter in an extreme case, even androgen insensitivity severe enough to cause ambiguous genitals only sometimes causes a female gender ID in XY people. A lot of trans people think that being slightly undermasculinized can explain gender dysphoria, but that makes no sense, it's still clear on the male side. Of course CAIS (shoutout to Candice here! ) women do not get masculinized at all.

To be fair, sex hormone levels during different stages of development ARE pretty much solely responsible for sex dimorphism. They are responsible for almost all the traits we associate as more male or more female, and the brain's structure is not an exception. So to end up on the wrong side of that spectrum means there has to be some hormone problem somewhere along the line. I think the classic theory is that the sex hormone levels in the mother are disrupted and off balance while the brain is developing, since the fetus develops different areas at different times. I'm not sure if that has really been substantiated but I know some of the digit ratio and other skeletal/behavioral/temperamental stuff was linked to those prenatal hormone levels as well.

But, I don't personally believe that pure brain sex dimorphism is what causes a large portion of cases of gender dysphoria. I think there are actually a lot of different causes that end up with the same treatment. That's my completely subjective opinion, and I would only be offering anecdotal evidence to back it up, so I'm not going to bother and I'm not going to argue about it. It doesn't matter why and it doesn't change the reality that transition is right for some people regardless of ANY factors other than simply wanting/needing to.

No, no-that's actually a fairly interesting take on things.  Wrt the study, I'd probably argue that this one receptor isn't a strong enough indicator of pre-natal hormonal levels.  But I don't care to argue either.  I'm still looking at the question of *what* causes this, and while I do think it is most definitely a tangible medical condition (the same as AIS, Bipolar, or anything else), I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject...

Sad Panda, nowhere did he say being intersex and transgender are the same thing (though there are doctors who are pushing for it to be considered an intersex condition, more specifically "neurological intersex"). He said that because you were drawing a line in the sand between transgender and intersex as if one was more valid and one was not (one medical, one an "identity").

Quote from: Declan. on June 13, 2014, 01:10:12 PM
Sad Panda, nowhere did he say being intersex and transgender are the same thing (though there are doctors who are pushing for it to be considered an intersex condition, more specifically "neurological intersex"). He said that because you were drawing a line in the sand between transgender and intersex as if one was more valid and one was not (one medical, one an "identity").

Yah but can someone please ask me which lines I'm drawing? I think I'm the authority on that one. :S because like I said... I wasn't drawing a line in validity. transgender IS an identity, it is a broad, umbrella term for several identities, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, and intersex is primarily a medical umbrella term first and identity second. Gender dysphoria is not intersex, though both are used to refer to medical conditions, they describe different things. I was emphasizing that the primary use for term intersex is not as an identity but as indicating a range of medical conditions which have no reason to include gender dysphoria... not because it is less valid, but because it doesn't fit under that umbrella. and if you substitute things carelessly (he turned my "transgender" into "gender dysphoria" which again is different) it changes the meaning of what I said. So I don't think it's fair to be offended by me in that case.

By the way--this is completely unrelated but in the first place, I disagree that a medical condition is necessarily more valid than an identity. I don't think validity should even come into consideration, nobody has the right to invalidate people's identities.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 12:42:18 PM
No, no-that's actually a fairly interesting take on things.  Wrt the study, I'd probably argue that this one receptor isn't a strong enough indicator of pre-natal hormonal levels.  But I don't care to argue either.  I'm still looking at the question of *what* causes this, and while I do think it is most definitely a tangible medical condition (the same as AIS, Bipolar, or anything else), I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject...

Maybe misunderstood again... I'm not sure if you think my opinion of the study was that it is a cause of GD? If so then just to clarify, olivia P originally posted that study and I was critiquing it. So I have the same opinion as you--it is not an example of a genetic cause.

Anyway maybe someone else has more theories about the why? It's way too complicated for me to have a concrete opinion. And people transition for many different conscious reasons as well.

Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:03:58 PM
Yah but can someone please ask me which lines I'm drawing? I think I'm the authority on that one. :S because like I said... I wasn't drawing a line in validity. transgender IS an identity, it is a broad, umbrella term for several identities, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, and intersex is primarily a medical umbrella term first and identity second. Gender dysphoria is not intersex, though both are used to refer to medical conditions, they describe different things. I was emphasizing that the primary use for term intersex is not as an identity but as indicating a range of medical conditions which have no reason to include gender dysphoria... not because it is less valid, but because it doesn't fit under that umbrella. and if you substitute things carelessly (he turned my "transgender" into "gender dysphoria" which again is different) it changes the meaning of what I said. So I don't think it's fair to be offended by me in that case.

Quote from: sad pandaWhat do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.

Quote from: sad pandaTrans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different.

Quote from:  sad pandaI personally don't believe in gender identity and stuff and have not seen any evidence that there is some kind of gender wiring in the brain beyond normal sex dimorphism.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. ... The condition is also sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or ->-bleeped-<-."

I'm well aware that "transgender" is an umbrella term, and that not everyone that falls under that term suffers from gender dysphoria. However, you did not make it clear that you see the two as separate. In any case, you did say with no uncertainty that you don't believe in gender identity, and if there's no gender identity, there's no gender dysphoria. If you were misunderstood, that's on you for saying what you did.

Quote from: Declan. on June 13, 2014, 02:35:17 PM
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

"Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. ... The condition is also sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or ->-bleeped-<-."

I'm well aware that "transgender" is an umbrella term, and that not everyone that falls under that term suffers from gender dysphoria. However, you did not make it clear that you see the two as separate. In any case, you did say with no uncertainty that you don't believe in gender identity, and if there's no gender identity, there's no gender dysphoria. If you were misunderstood, that's on you for saying what you did.

Who said there can't be gender dysphoria without gender identity? Obviously the dysphoria is real, and it is in relation to a subjective experience of gender, I just don't think it's biologically pre-determined due to some like, innate gender map... which means I think it's based on a more complex picture of social, experiential and yes medical factors.

But I don't believe that there's an exclusive gender identity switch in the brain and if it gets flipped wrong then bam, gender dysphoria. There's a reason gender dysphoria can be late onset, or anything really, it is more complex and often needs social and life factors to trigger it IMO.

I'm sorry but I can't be responsible for people making assumptions about everything I say and then freaking out at me when they could just ask if that's what I really meant and try to be cooperative :/ not everyone extends that courtesy though. Actually most people don't, so whatever. I just wish people cared about my actual intentions in saying something and not semantics...

Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
Oh, eesh. you decide what to get offended over, not me... if you look back at my quote you might notice that i just differentiated intersex from just being an identity, i never said being trans is not a medical condition. I think it's mildly offensive that trans people consistently try to appropriate the intersex label, which will not benefit them, when they generally don't care about, advocate for or understand the needs of intersex people.

No, you differentiated intersex as being medically diagnosable while transgender is not. Now you're backtracking. I simply pointed out that this is very false. And I'm not "appropriating" the intersex label, whereas you have certainly been telling transgender people that they simply have an identity and not a medically diagnosable condition throughout this thread. You're entitled to your opinions, but you can't really be too shocked when you come onto a board filled with people who have struggled to get a debilitating physical and psychological condition taken seriously by medical professionals their entire lives. We don't have it quite as easy as you insist we do. The entire medical community is not falling over themselves to give transgender individuals the treatment they need.

QuoteThough yeah, gender dysphoria is a medical condition, transgender is a huge umbrella term. And it's not medically or practically similar to intersex, but that doesn't invalidate it. This is the problem. You can't take the intersex label just because not having it makes you feel invalid. Trans people don't need to be called intersexed, and some trans people might even find that offensive, cause intersex implies an incomplete sexual development and is not primarily about the brain. Trans people become sexually mature. Again, just very different conditions, intersex is already a pretty broad umbrella term to begin with. Neither is more valid, tough one is more medically understood, but... anyway, they are very different. It would be intellectually lazy to call trans people intersex.

Again, transgender is a huge umbrella term and transgender individuals do not necessarily have gender dysphoria, but very many of us do. Again, I never claimed the intersex label for all transgender individuals, so I'm not at all sure where you're getting that. If you want to talk about people misreading your posts, you might want to take more care before accusing someone of this. I only refuted your argument that intersex is medically diagnosible while transgender is not. Aside from a small sliver of the medical community, no one wants to call transgender intersex. That is not the issue here. The issue is your multiple posts insisting that transgender is merely an identity and not at all medically diagnosable, while intersex is medically diagnosable.

QuoteYou are filling in those assumptions though... you're projecting. I never said anything about being "really" sick. Or about validity. It's not about validity at all, so....

I mean, the fact that you assume I'm invalidating you by calling you not intersex speaks volumes to why you want to be called intersex.

So very many incorrect assumptions. Again, I reiterate, I do not think transgender with gender dysphoria and intersex are the same any more than Bipolar Disorder and Cerebral Palsy are the same. I do, however, know that they are both medically diagnosable physiologically based conditions that deserve medical care. I'm going to let your quotes speak for themselves here.

Quote from: Sad PandaTrans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different.

QuoteCalling trans people intersex is just overshadowing people with medically diagnosable DSDs for no reason.

Trans is not medically diagnosable beyond subjective experience, it is very different. no need to overshadow people in need of attention.

QuoteGender dysphoria CANNOT be handled like an intersex condition. It's not even similar, and beyond that I
it has no clinical picture, no warning signs, no identifiable genetic component, mystery age of onset, vague and variable symptoms beyond literally claiming to have it, and needs a highly individualized course of treatment. Of course it's valid, but it is not an intersex condition. Nuh uh. And people with gender dysphoria can only be hurt by gaining the intersex label. It won't fix fears of invalidity either.

I don't mean this in a tongue-in-cheek way at all, but I think you really need to do some extensive research into the various peer-reviewed studies available online that detail the considerable physical evidence for gender dysphoria before you spread this kind of misinformation. Intersex is very badly misunderstood and mishandled by the medical community, and so are transgender conditions. Neither community will "win" by disenfranchising the other.

Also, I don't like bringing this into threads for the sake of argument, but since you are very adamant that I'm just some transgender fellow trying to "appropriate" the intersex label, I am intersex. In fact, being treated for my intersex condition with spironolactone by irresponsible backwoods doctors led to a huge spike in my gender dysphoria to the point where I was suicidal. Because my doctors were willing to treat the intersex condition while ignoring the fact that I was also a transgender male, I could have died, so the door swings both ways. Trying to push one group away from medical recognition to validate another will always hurt someone, which is why I find your original arguments in this thread so distasteful.

Quote from: Olivia P on June 12, 2014, 05:19:53 AM
As you may notice by my icon under my name I am news staff, and throughout my days I go through lots of articles on the topics of trans, gender and sex. Something I've noticed is that the majority of reports about Gender Equality focus 100% on the natal Male/Female balance and make no mention of any other part about gender. Some articles even seem to claim that gender equality is very present today.

Surely Gender Equality will never be a reality until all gender variances are officially recognized by all levels of society?

Not just natal female and male...

YES! THIS! ^ I switch genders throughout the day (Wish I didn't, only want to be fully 100% female, so this hurts me..) but because of that, I've realized something that others don't think about too often. I realize, if I wish to have SRS (Which I do) then I will be FORCED to be 100% female all the time. Now, I'd love that but, I don't know if that's possible for me but it made me realize, people who are gender fluid besides myself sadly can't get SRS, or at least not in the US as, one of the requirements for it is being in guy or girl mode for 12 months without reverting back to the other mode. That's just not right NOR is it fair! To add insult to injury, not all trans people NEED or WANT to be on hormones but, that too is another requirement if I recall right.

2014, the year of trans awareness. That I have seen more and more of as this year goes by, we're making SO MUCH progress but, sadly, people who are gender fluid and so on are being left behind and not mentioned. This REALLY bothers me, a lot.. We need to not only continue to raise awareness on MtF/FtM issues but other trans issues too such as gender fluid issues!

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on June 13, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
That study is incredibly flawed, because it assumes that there should be a direct correlation between CAG repeats and gender identity, which seems like a very limited picture in my own (non-professional) opinion.  There are a number of variables at play during the development of brain structure-hormones, and this specific hormone being just one-anyone with a basic knowledge of biology would know that you cannot tie the development of a complex condition like ours to a single variation that has in no way been proven definitively one way or another to cause that condition.  Measuring how much someone's brain *should* feminize accomplishes nothing, especially if it already has been!

Just curious-what DO you think causes ->-bleeped-<-?

I know it wasn't aimed at me but what actually causes it is a great mystery with many theories and hypotheses. Personally though I think it is an evolutionary thing. Or... The last 30-50 years we have had the luxury of self exploration since we don't expend so much energy in order to survive anymore. 200 years ago much of our thoughts would have been on just basic survival, now we have everything we need just a short ride away. I think ->-bleeped-<- has been around since the beginning of mankind but has always been squelched because of non acceptance by society. Society is becoming more open, although not enough for us it seems sometimes. For the first time in history we have a lot of freetime to, it may not seem so, but our minds can turn inward instead of spending so much concentration on just staying alive.

I really don't think there will ever be a solid, concrete reason why. Or at least in my lifetime. But regardless ->-bleeped-<- seems to be on the rise, whether society is becoming more accepting or changes in or DNA or just acknowledging ourselves on way deeper levels than ever before. Or maybe changes in our environment is causing something to happen prenatally. Even different waves of energy coming from different areas of space having effects on brain development. Even maybe electromagnetic fields from our technology having an effect on brain development in the womb. Yeah I know it sound insane but the earth not being the center of the universe was an insane though a thousand years ago.

Quote from: Klaus on June 13, 2014, 05:31:52 PM
No, you differentiated intersex as being medically diagnosable while transgender is not. Now you're backtracking. I simply pointed out that this is very false. And I'm not "appropriating" the intersex label, whereas you have certainly been telling transgender people that they simply have an identity and not a medically diagnosable condition throughout this thread. You're entitled to your opinions, but you can't really be too shocked when you come onto a board filled with people who have struggled to get a debilitating physical and psychological condition taken seriously by medical professionals their entire lives. We don't have it quite as easy as you insist we do. The entire medical community is not falling over themselves to give transgender individuals the treatment they need.

You probably don't know my background, the non-TG means I don't identify as trans personally, but I have changed my gender presentation. You know what that process was like? I asked my endo to prescribe me HRT, and she did just like that, and that was it, and insurance covered it, and all my labs. That was before WPATH changed the letter requirement but now that is a perfectly acceptable course of treatment.

It's actually harder for an IS person to get trans treatment, because IS treatment is aimed at normalizing people to their assigned sex except in cases of severe ambiguity, so again, I wouldn't have had anything to gain by saying I'm IS.

(And since you experienced this, I would think you'd know better than anyone else that treating a trans person as IS isn't helpful and can be damaging)

Quote
Again, transgender is a huge umbrella term and transgender individuals do not necessarily have gender dysphoria, but very many of us do. Again, I never claimed the intersex label for all transgender individuals, so I'm not at all sure where you're getting that. If you want to talk about people misreading your posts, you might want to take more care before accusing someone of this. I only refuted your argument that intersex is medically diagnosible while transgender is not. Aside from a small sliver of the medical community, no one wants to call transgender intersex. That is not the issue here. The issue is your multiple posts insisting that transgender is merely an identity and not at all medically diagnosable, while intersex is medically diagnosable.

So very many incorrect assumptions. Again, I reiterate, I do not think transgender with gender dysphoria and intersex are the same any more than Bipolar Disorder and Cerebral Palsy are the same. I do, however, know that they are both medically diagnosable physiologically based conditions that deserve medical care. I'm going to let your quotes speak for themselves here.

I don't mean this in a tongue-in-cheek way at all, but I think you really need to do some extensive research into the various peer-reviewed studies available online that detail the considerable physical evidence for gender dysphoria before you spread this kind of misinformation. Intersex is very badly misunderstood and mishandled by the medical community, and so are transgender conditions. Neither community will "win" by disenfranchising the other.

Also, I don't like bringing this into threads for the sake of argument, but since you are very adamant that I'm just some transgender fellow trying to "appropriate" the intersex label, I am intersex. In fact, being treated for my intersex condition with spironolactone by irresponsible backwoods doctors led to a huge spike in my gender dysphoria to the point where I was suicidal. Because my doctors were willing to treat the intersex condition while ignoring the fact that I was also a transgender male, I could have died, so the door swings both ways. Trying to push one group away from medical recognition to validate another will always hurt someone, which is why I find your original arguments in this thread so distasteful.

I'm sorry Klaus, I refuse to do the back and forth thing. Ugh. What a stressful waste of mental energy. You can read whatever you want from my posts if you really choose to. It's your choice. The bottom line is that I think everyone needs the appropriate medical care, and I have been saying that all along, which is no different from what you think.  The only addition to me is that trans people don't have any reason to fall under the intersex umbrella, even if there is overlap (as is your case--CAH??)

But that makes you intersex AND transgender, they are different labels that describe different things, neither more or less valid, just different. If you can't understand how I feel from that, I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do beyond to say that, and I won't try.

Everyone is reminded to play nice, keep it civil and agree to disagree.

Quote from: Shana-chan on June 13, 2014, 06:14:47 PM
2014, the year of trans awareness. That I have seen more and more of as this year goes by, we're making SO MUCH progress but, sadly, people who are gender fluid and so on are being left behind and not mentioned. This REALLY bothers me, a lot.. We need to not only continue to raise awareness on MtF/FtM issues but other trans issues too such as gender fluid issues!

Yes i have noticed this also, there is a good risk of history repeating itself and people getting left behind out of a equality movement. At the time of so much successful exposure, it is more important than ever to focus on unity and to help each other out, as regardless of your gender variance, until everyone is represented, noone will have full gender equality.

Its impossible for people to form an accurate understanding of sex and gender if they fail to factor in all variables.

Quote from: sad panda on June 13, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
What do you mean by gatekeeping between those communities? intersex is first and foremost a spectrum of medical conditions (different from transgender) rather than an identity.

Malehood is different than manhood. Man is a gender, male is a sex... umh, but why would you care about being a man if it ceased to mean anything anyway? If it was just a word with no definition? Do you need to be recognized as a man or as a male? What's problematic is "man" can only exist in the first place as defined by oppressive stereotypes. If it's not about exclusionary stereotypes it's either completely arbitrary... or redundant (sex is enough to describe it.)

I'm sorry for being slow to respond.

I feel that the biological characteristics of a transgender person and an intersex person are not different, and the medical differentiation is unnecessary and often harmful. There are demonstrable anatomic markers for both, and both involve a deviation from expected physical sex details.

I've had this "desert island" discussion with a lot of people a lot of times, where we consider whether we would need to transition if there was no social input. I believe that my body would feel wrong to me even if I never met another human. I can't know that for sure, but it doesn't hurt anyone for me to feel that I am male and have always been male, and that that category is definable.