So, my wife came home from work last night, and she started discussing with me the repetitive (and frustrating) topic: what if we can't afford you to transition. Tbh, we aren't in a fantastic financial state right now, but we're working our way out of it.
The plan (deal, whatever you like to call it) was that we would have a second child, and during my wife's pregnancy, I would start my therapy back up.
Part of the problem I have is that a child costs considerably more than the steps I want to take to transition right now. No FFS, NEVER GRS (unless I hit the freakin' lottery), no boob job, planning on doing laser myself with an at home method. So, really, only need therapy, doctor's appointments, and hormones. Honestly, with that, I had roughly calculated it, and it isn't all that expensive in my mind.

We've had this convo several times. She constantly asks me if I'm going to leave if we can't afford to transition, to which I replied no. She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice. I'm not suicidal. My dysphoria is.... hm, "bearable for now." I put it that way, because knowing I can transition sometime in the near future makes it not so bad. But taking that off the table.... the last time that happened, I went downhill quickly. Again, not suicidal, but my work ethic went down, I was very depressed, and I had lost interest in almost everything, even my marriage. Short of suicide, I felt like giving up on life.

I do not want to put my family into bankruptcy. Being female but living on the streets would be a nightmare for me. But... again, putting our house before me.... it sucks. I know my wife has dreams about our house, and things we'd like to do, etc. etc. I just wish that THIS was important to her as well.

Tbh, no, I hadn't thought about what would happen if we couldn't afford it. But, again, my wife constantly tells me that when we can afford it, this is what she'd like to do to the kitchen, and she'd like to close in the garage to make a playroom, etc. etc. And here I sit, a man who can't stand what he looks like, waiting for a woman to appear in the mirror one morning....

Help...

I can't speak for your wife, only she can do that, but from hints in your message it sounds like she wants to make sure you're there for the long haul. Also, changing the house is "nesting behavior". Is she expecting now? These things are for her happiness and she may hope, for yours.

I'd suggest making up a budget, necessities first, then your transition and the house mods as equal priorities, then a little for the boat. Present it to her as a POSSIBLE budget, then negotiate calmly. Calmly EVEN IF she doesn't stay calm.

It sounds like she is one thing in your life you don't want to lose and I fully sympathize with that.

ChelseaAnn

You have my sympathy as does your wife.  I can feel your pain and your frustration.  As a couple you have both your individual dreams and those shared dreams that you have as a couple.

Unless you can talk this through and negotiate an agreement, which you can both live with, there is a risk that your resentment will continue to grow.  Excessive and prolonged resentment rarely ends well.

Not knowing either of you perhaps some time with a relationship counsellor may help.  It sounds like you both need to be heard and respected.  A good therapist will help you develop these skills and improve your relationship.

It's funny now, but for a very long time I unfairly blamed my wife for a lot of my unhappiness.  The real culprit  was closer to home - it was me.   I needed to improve my communication skills and fix myself rather than try to fix my wife or our relationship.  Fixing myself created the possibility of a better relationship.

Hope this helps

Aisla

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 08:55:28 AM
She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice.

Favoring remodeling and toys over a necessary medical procedure or procedures for a partner? That's messed up. That has to be a devastating hurt that those things matter to her more than your health.

Things like getting professional laser done I found key to becoming the successful woman I am today. So I would include laser as necessary medical and finding a good stylist as necessary medical. Or, since insurance isn't going to pay for those things, necessary expense. It's a big challenge diving into the deep end of the other gender pool later in life. On this forum that last feels like stating the obvious.

Have you told your wife how her priorities make you feel? How the treatments you need are for your very life, not just to have something to show off?

I sort of hear that the "Cost" was figured out in a vacuum, the wife had no input. Nor were the wife's plans discussed in the grand scheme of things by her. I hear a whole lot of denial going on. The wife thinks just a little therapy will 'Fix' things. Life back to normal, perhaps? ChelseaAnn thinking "well I told her____ and she knows what my real plans are". Add in a little the new baby will 'Fix' things also. And to think life is not not going to change with HRT is a tad unrealistic.

I say a whole lot of honest and open talking needs to be done before there is an explosion.

Well, I see your point. I'm not helping things. But my big problem is she keeps asking me what if I have to live my life as is. I dress around house, and go out with friends sometimes. But, my wife is talking about not affording therapy (aka fix it yourself). As far as dressing, there is no point in getting ready at all if I have to go out at all. I can't go out as female, because I have to take my son, and my wife doesn't want me taking him out alone as Chelsea. What's more, she is still uncomfortable going out with me alone.
In short, I don't understand how she honestly can ask me "what if we can't do it?" I mean, I wouldn't leave her... But I may as well go back in the closet. All I would have gained since being in the closet is the ability to go out with friends, and not hide my wardrobe. I hardly think of that as a victory... Am I wrong?

Reading this I think it is pretty clear that she wants you to stay as father and husband and not as her female partner. You will need  a lot of communication to try and change that view but I fear the alternative is separation, I would really have a deep thought about the potential future together and of that of the next child.

I'm very sorry to say that, but I fear it may be the reality.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
All I would have gained since being in the closet is the ability to go out with friends, and not hide my wardrobe. I hardly think of that as a victory... Am I wrong?

I don't mean to demean you but do you realize just how many would die for "All that I have gained is...." Like that is huge. Just  dressing around the house is huge. Dressing with your son and wife around is huge.

My wife lives in fear of an unknown future. In fear of me leaving her as the affects of HRT and my personal growth and development continue. Some fear of my life going out of control, as well her's, if I decide to transition now before we are on better financial footings. I live in constant fear of all this hurting her. We both place the others happiness above our own.

If you want more than what you have now, some serious talking needs to be done, now. If you do start HRT even low dose, it will affect how you think and feel. Any promise you make today may get broken if you don't simply keep things as they are, short of perhaps therapy. I've been on/off low dose HRT several times, stopping after my "Brain Reset". Got about 5 years of relief each time, with faking normal guy aided with a monthly or so CD'ing.  With my 3Ds of Diversions, Distractions, and Denial I got a good 30+ year run before the dysphoria hit my like a sledgehammer after the excrement hit the air handler big time in my life

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
In short, I don't understand how she honestly can ask me "what if we can't do it?" I mean, I wouldn't leave her... But I may as well go back in the closet.

Why wouldn't you leave her?

Quote from: Cindy on June 22, 2014, 06:01:18 PM
I would really have a deep thought about the potential future together and of that of the next child.

I have to agree with Cindy.

I think that you each have a very different and perhaps incompatible view of the future. The fact that you wife wants to remodel the house and have another baby is worrying to me considering that you have huge things on your horizon that have not been discussed in detail yet. It may also be that your wife knows about your situation and has simply shrugged it off in favor of things that she wants, putting you and what you need dead last. There may not even be a stable future in which to raise that baby when all is said and done.

I think that you both need to spend a lot of time discussing things and come to an agreement before either of you takes one more step.

Well, see, we did have an agreement... I honestly didn't want a second kid. The first is very stressful on me, and he's a good little guy in very good health. My wife and I almost split up when I told her that I didn't want a second one. She asked me if there was any way to have a second one.
I thought about it, and told her I would agree to having a second child if I could begin my therapy after she is so many months along. She did agree to that.
Given my estimates, we have paid more in hospital bills for my son's birth (after insurance) than what it would cost for the things I deem necessary for my transition (therapy, hrt, and at home laser). I mean, maybe I'm not seeing something, but I didn't think that was too bad.
It really sucks when SOs don't see how hard this is on us. I mean, if you asked the SO of a cancer patient to pay $4000 so the patient would be cured and not have to suffer ever again, I'm sure 99% of them would go out and max out 2 credit cards. I'm not saying that's what I want to do to my family, but it isn't much of a cost if people really look at it.
Add on things like FFS, or breast augmentation, and especially GRS, then we're talking big money. I could cover what I want to do in 3 paychecks.

Maybe she is just afraid and wants everything to be okay?

It sounds like she doesn't understand what being trans actually means, that it's not a whim or a preference so much as it is a reality you can't wish away.

Most people who transition don't have a lot of money. Some of us save up or use insurance or both to get whatever treatment feels most urgent, but even the brokest transperson usually faces more social hurdles than financial barriers. You need your wife to be supportive of who you are. You have to find a way to make her believe you when you tell her who you are, and you have to decide together how that fits with your future together.

I was a pregnant woman once. After the first few months, I was very keen on everything being okay. The other parent left, but if he had been around I think I would have vociferously objected to transition if he had brought it up. Back then I didn't know what a transsexual was, and all I wanted for us to have a stable home and a good plan going forward. I would have done anything for my fetus and I didn't accept any compromise.

Maybe you can explain to your wife that being who you really are is important for your children? I tried to wait until my kid was an adult, but what finally pushed me to take the plunge was realizing that I was teaching my daughter a shameful lesson by staying closeted. Your kid will grow up in a world full of all sorts of out lgbt people, and you can't keep the existence of people like you a secret even if you manage to keep your orientation a secret. Do you really want your kid to see you as someone who tells lies in order to keep others happy? Have you decided what you will tell your kid once they are an adult? This "problem" doesn't go away. It's okay to decide not to transition, but doing it just for your wife or kids is unhealthy if they aren't told why.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 23, 2014, 12:23:05 AM
Well, see, we did have an agreement... I honestly didn't want a second kid. The first is very stressful on me, and he's a good little guy in very good health. My wife and I almost split up when I told her that I didn't want a second one. She asked me if there was any way to have a second one.
I thought about it, and told her I would agree to having a second child if I could begin my therapy after she is so many months along. She did agree to that.

I don't get why you're negotiating with your own healthcare as a bargaining chip. I also don't get why you won't let leaving your wife be on the table. Your relationship, and by extension you, sound miserable after all.

As it stands now, your wife has nothing at risk in this situation since you aren't prepared to leave or otherwise prepared to impose consequences on her for saying no. So, being mindful that she cares more about owning a boat than you, what's her motivation to be there for you?

Misato

Not sure if you have been in Chelsea's (Chelsea I apologise for referring to you in the third person on your thread and don't intend to be rude) situation but if you haven't it isn't a simple decision.  When you marry you both commit to each other, take a journey with each other and now one of the parties has a significant change in priorities.  Giving an ultimatum may work but it is a high stakes call and I think that timing is critical.

Having said this I did give an ultimatum to my wife a few months back, but it was more along the lines of "As I don't feel respected, I don't feel that you understand what I am dealing with and that I can't and won't stop HRT, this relationship is not working for me, it is an unhealthy relationship  and we need to discuss our separation.... 24 hours later my wife said that she wanted 'us' to work, that she 'chose us' and wanted to know if I would reconsider.  I agreed and she is now a big supporter and protective of me.   If I had had this conversation 3 years ago when I was first diagnosed as TG then it would have been all over as we hadn't worked the issues or even started the first few steps on our journey.

There is nothing wrong with people changing or reassessing their priorities but if Chelsea or any spouse wishes to keep the relationship it has to be renegotiated.   It is tough enough in an ideal situation but where dysphoria hits hard and fast; where both spouses have not discussed this and it is a surprise to one; where one doesn't understand the distress caused by dysphoria; where expectations/promises/shared dreams are suddenly challenged/threatened etc and the party who hasn't changed really doesn't fully understand just what is happening to them, their family and their relationship; and where treatment options, possible outcomes, objectives, limits etc have not been discussed then the situation is likely to be fraught with emotion and disappointment/hurt/anger etc

If Chelsea isn't invested in the relationship then it may be best to - leave early and respectfully.  If Chelsea is invested then there is a lot of work to do in sharing understanding, resetting expectations and negotiating/agreeing priorities.  Now for some, this is too hard, too difficult and they will move on fairly quickly.   Others will see much promise if they can reset and recommit while addressing the dysphoria and the possibility of full or partial transition.

Having spent the last few years on a similar and currently successful journey it is still inappropriate to overlay my narrative on Chelsea.  This is something which Chelsea and her wife will need to address with appropriate therapist support and truly authentic, respectful and effective  communication.

I wish them both well and I don't presume to advise Chelsea to leave or to stay.  It is Chelsea's call, it is a difficult call and it is even harder to transform a relationship.  However for those of us who have succeeded or given it our best shot we won't die wondering, what if...?

Safe travels

Aisla

Thank you aisla. I did need that.

it is definitely an invested relationship. 9 years. And a 1 year old.
I do believe she cares, but I honestly don't know what I'd do if we couldn't afford it. It honestly isn't much, so idk... As for an ultimatum, I don't give her one because of timing. If I was about to start hrt, and a similar conversation happened, I'd have to question her reasoning behind stopping me.

One of the many things I learned with my transition was I was co-dependent on my partner of then 8 years. I thought losing her would destroy me and I thought losing her couldn't compare to the gains I'd get with transition. I did everything I could to put no pressure on her, going so far as to sign a statement that I would never transition so I made promises to her I couldn't hope to keep and I compromised on things I never should have. I did a lot of damage because I just could be honest with her and tell her what I needed because I was so terrified of losing her.

Happily, we have survived thus far.

But I did have to make myself get to a place where I was prepared to lose her. I had to learn to assert my needs as important. I had to let her fight for our relationship too. That's when things started to get really good between us.

Whatever your reasons for holding on the way you are (Cause I also don't want to presume mine) getting your wife into the thick of matters is important.

I gather I didn't craft my questions well and that I regret. My questions were not intended to drive you two apart, rather, they were to try and find the heart of the ill in the matter as the picture painted was very troubling. As I bristle at the idea of launching into my experiences as I just did above (and I don't think I constrain myself well enough) because I don't like how it feels like I'm "grabbing the mic" as it were to talk about myself when you came here with an issue you're facing.


So, my apologies, and I do wish you and your family the best of luck. But I do also hope you get to take care of your needs soon.

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 22, 2014, 08:55:28 AM
So, my wife came home from work last night, and she started discussing with me the repetitive (and frustrating) topic: what if we can't afford you to transition. Tbh, we aren't in a fantastic financial state right now, but we're working our way out of it.
The plan (deal, whatever you like to call it) was that we would have a second child, and during my wife's pregnancy, I would start my therapy back up.
Part of the problem I have is that a child costs considerably more than the steps I want to take to transition right now. No FFS, NEVER GRS (unless I hit the freakin' lottery), no boob job, planning on doing laser myself with an at home method. So, really, only need therapy, doctor's appointments, and hormones. Honestly, with that, I had roughly calculated it, and it isn't all that expensive in my mind.

We've had this convo several times. She constantly asks me if I'm going to leave if we can't afford to transition, to which I replied no. She says she has dreams, like remodeling the house, or buying a boat. I guess the thing that hurts is that these things are expensive... and to me it comes off as my happiness is second rate to making our house look really nice. I'm not suicidal. My dysphoria is.... hm, "bearable for now." I put it that way, because knowing I can transition sometime in the near future makes it not so bad. But taking that off the table.... the last time that happened, I went downhill quickly. Again, not suicidal, but my work ethic went down, I was very depressed, and I had lost interest in almost everything, even my marriage. Short of suicide, I felt like giving up on life.

I do not want to put my family into bankruptcy. Being female but living on the streets would be a nightmare for me. But... again, putting our house before me.... it sucks. I know my wife has dreams about our house, and things we'd like to do, etc. etc. I just wish that THIS was important to her as well.

Tbh, no, I hadn't thought about what would happen if we couldn't afford it. But, again, my wife constantly tells me that when we can afford it, this is what she'd like to do to the kitchen, and she'd like to close in the garage to make a playroom, etc. etc. And here I sit, a man who can't stand what he looks like, waiting for a woman to appear in the mirror one morning....

Help...

It always disturbs me when children are involved.  Your post is all me me me but what about your child.  This kind of thing can devastate a child yet you sound like you are only concerned about your transition.  If it were me the only thing I'd be concerned about is what is this going to do to my kid.  Of course if it were me I wouldn't force this on a kid until they were grown.  Sorry for the harsh criticism but kids come first. Even at the expense of personal happiness.

Quote from: Amy1988 on June 24, 2014, 06:30:21 PM
It always disturbs me when children are involved.  Your post is all me me me but what about your child.  This kind of thing can devastate a child yet you sound like you are only concerned about your transition.  If it were me the only thing I'd be concerned about is what is this going to do to my kid.  Of course if it were me I wouldn't force this on a kid until they were grown.  Sorry for the harsh criticism but kids come first. Even at the expense of personal happiness.

This post comes off as incredibly transphobic to me.  As if there's something empirically wrong with being trans or transitioning.  Would you care to explain why it is exactly that you think transitioning is harmful to ones children?   I don't have children, but I would have still transitioned if I did.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  If either one of my parents had transitioned when I was growing up, it would have been far better than losing one to an early grave or having them drunk or otherwise emotionally unavailable. 

Big picture...

Quote from: Jill F on June 24, 2014, 07:49:09 PM
This post comes off as incredibly transphobic to me.  As if there's something empirically wrong with being trans or transitioning.  Would you care to explain why it is exactly that you think transitioning is harmful to ones children?   I don't have children, but I would have still transitioned if I did.  For me it was a matter of life and death.  If either one of my parents had transitioned when I was growing up, it would have been far better than losing one to an early grave or having them drunk or otherwise emotionally unavailable. 

Big picture...

You don't think that a child seeing their father turn into a women wouldn't have profound emotional effects? 

 
Everyone, please mind your tone when responding to others, certain blunt statements/questions usually result in the original point going by the wayside and an argument erupting instead. Thanks...