I am an FTM, have been on HRT for about 4 months and I am in an LDR where I live in Sweden and my girlfriend in Dubai. I have not yet have had any legal gender change though I filed in my papers earlier this month. I have yet to have top and bottom surgery. I have had an official name change.

My question: How safe is it for me to travel to Dubai in order to see my girlfriend? Has anyone been there post-transition? Any information about traveling to Dubai as transgender is useful, especially if it's from personal experience. I have read that you may potentially end up in jail.

Additional information about me: I pass relatively all right. My voice is somewhere between male-female range (I either sound like a very old and deep woman or a teenage boy). My face is masculinized enough to look male. I live as a male 100%. If I am going to see my girlfriend in Dubai it will likely be in about a year so I would have been on HRT for over 12 months. I may have had my legal gender change and/or top surgery by then (fingers crossed).

Quote from: CandiceSkirvin on June 21, 2014, 02:18:06 PM
Dubai is not LGBT friendly in the slightest, nor female friendly. Women visiting the UAE tend to have a very high risk of being attacked/raped. I hate saying this, but only go if you pass 100%. If there is any way someone in the UAE will see you as female then it would be safer for both you and your girlfriend to have her come to you. The risk of harm to women and trans* people in the UAE is very high. I strongly recommend only going after top surgery and only if you are absolutely certain you pass without any question or doubt. Men, especially Muslim men, are usually respected and safe in the UAE--less safe if non-Muslim, but definitely safer than anyone who looks female or anyone who looks androgynous or in-between. Just be very careful.

All right, thanks. Also, I am not of Caucasian but Asian descent (Korean). I am not sure if this may have any impact on how I'll be perceived, especially when it comes to passing? I do pass relatively all right now, though most people seem to read me as a teenage boy when I do, but I can imagine it will be different once I've been longer on HRT. You wouldn't be able to tell I had female breasts when I wear a binder.

I had to cancel presenting at a congress In Dubai as my passport name and gender appearence mismatched. I did a lot of research before coming to that sad conclusion. There are some who go In for work - using birth gender and clothing and passport. But any risk of being different puts you through a degrading 12 hour process and deportation at your expense. There was a case in September last year. Sadly.

Quote from: Monkeymel on June 21, 2014, 02:44:21 PM
I had to cancel presenting at a congress In Dubai as my passport name and gender appearence mismatched. I did a lot of research before coming to that sad conclusion. There are some who go In for work - using birth gender and clothing and passport. But any risk of being different puts you through a degrading 12 hour process and deportation at your expense. There was a case in September last year. Sadly.

Yes, I was wondering if it would help to go there BEFORE I change my legal gender but my name is already changed so that is already a discrepancy in itself. I suppose it might be easier AFTER I have it changed so my name and gender match (it's masculine-sounding). I think my appearance is all right though, as I seem to pass relatively easily as a male right now and it will just be easier in time as I have been longer on HRT.

Would it be worthwhile to ask the airport staff about this?

My brother was in Dubai 2 years ago, his a typical straight white guy so no problems for him of course. I was going to Japan, but even if I had the chance I would not go because it too much a risk for me.

from what I understand Dubai is very westernized compared to the rest of the country, however it still a arabic country where homosexuality is illigal and can be punished VERY harsh. sure some gay people go to Dubai, they do have well-known gay sports where they "expect to meet gay people", but since it illigal it all about gambling and doing it in secret. I think people who comes from other arabic countrys or small city nearby think dubai is like "gay heaven" but compared but comming from sweden I dont think you will find it very lgbt friendly at all, one of my friend from Denmark use to go to dubai and he did not even dare to chat with me because if anyone found out we talked on a lgbt site he could be punished while being in the country.
it not only the gay rights, sure theres also rules for things like kissing in public and other stuff which you would have to avoid not to get in trouble but this is a huge problem.
of transgender I dont know so much, I dont really think transgender as FTMs exist in Dubai. by meaning "exist" I sure dont mean there not there, sure there is ftm living there but I dont think theres
any awareness that they exist. In Iran transexuals exist in very binary terms where homosexuality is still punished by death, but in Dubai I dont know for sure, no matter if they exist or not the main worry is if you can be mistaked for being gay/lesbian, and for some who do not see diffrence of being trans and being queer that could be very dangerous and you wont have any rights.

So in generay I would not go, I never heard trans people going to Dubai, I heard one or maybe 2 going to egypt without problems, and other anti-lgbt countrys so its not like it always imposible however its always a risk you take and alot of stress to carry if you are to be there for over a year and cant visit sites like this, or discuss any problems on being trans and general worry about if anyone found out.

also if you are on homones I dont think you can use these while being in dubai. Dubai got stick rules of drugs, and you would need some paper on why you take this with you if you went there, already there theres risk in the airport and if you dont bring it with you, I doubt the chance you get homones in Dubai.
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If you visit for a shorter period 100% stealth, passable and with all your legal documents and surgery and so been done you could probably go but it still a risk you take.
without theres no way you should go, and I really hate to say that as a person who really want to visit middle east myself.
--

So no one actually has personal experience of Dubai either due to knowing people who have been there or because they have been there themselves?

I showed this thread to my girlfriend and some of the stuff you guys have written is really off when it comes to how the country's actually operating regarding gender and such, so I would like everyone who is responding to this thread to withhold any kind of conjecture of how they think people who live in the UAE view gender! If you know someone who lives there or nearby countries or have been there yourself, this is what I am really looking to in terms of information.

You may want to read this first and do some research. You need to remember they are a Muslim country and they do go by Sharia law.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_United_Arab_Emirates

I've been to Dubai regularly over the past few years.  For straight cis-people, it's a good, safe place to visit; friendly, cosmopolitan, pretty vibrant.  On the surface, it's very liberal compared to many areas of the Middle East, but it is at its core a strict Islamic nation with an extremely backward view of LGBT issues.  Not as bad as some, but still shamefully and dangerously bad, especially outside the main public areas of Dubai that Westerners see.

It's not the population you need to worry about.  It's the authorities.

As a visitor, you're given a little more leeway than a local, but I strongly caution AGAINST going there while in transition, or if not 1000000% stealth with all of your paperwork in perfect order and no trace of your prior gender post-transition.

Why take the risk?  If you can pay for the plane ticket over there, use that money to pay for your GF's plane ticket out of there to see you.  Problem solved.

It's one of those risks that you just don't need to take.  On a scale of risk, if you're not absolutely passable, I'd put it up there with a black guy trying to attend a KKK meeting.  If you're lucky, you'll just be refused entry at passport control and you'll catch the next flight home after spending a night in the airport terminal and wasting all that money and time.  If you're unlucky, you'll get through passport control and an overly-strict cop will see you on the street a couple of days later, take you as a pervert, and you'll be arrested and spend a while in that miserable legal system before getting kicked out.

Please don't go to Dubai while transitioning (or afterwards).  It's NOT a friendly place to us.  Bad, bad, bad, foolish idea.  You have been warned!

Quote from: SarahM777 on June 22, 2014, 11:26:01 AM
You may want to read this first and do some research. You need to remember they are a Muslim country and they do go by Sharia law.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_United_Arab_Emirates

This is exactly the kind of post I was referring to my in previous post. My girlfriend lives in Dubai and has lived there her entire life. Yes, the country goes by sharia law, yes, the country is primarily Muslim but no, you can't just make a lot of conjecture of how it is like to be LGBT in Dubai without being there yourself simply based off the fact that it's Muslim. A majority of the population in Dubai is actually Indian and therefore Hindu, not Muslim, for example.

Yes, I have read up, yes, I have read that article, but I am looking for personal experience because theory will only get you so far. How safe is it in ACTUALITY?

Quote from: __________ on June 22, 2014, 03:47:28 PM

Why take the risk?  If you can pay for the plane ticket over there, use that money to pay for your GF's plane ticket out of there to see you.  Problem solved.

The problem is her dad. They wouldn't be too keen to let her see me before I see them. I am looking into alternatives to convince him that I'm not some internet rapist, pretty much.

Quote from: Ephemeral on June 22, 2014, 11:10:24 AM
So no one actually has personal experience of Dubai either due to knowing people who have been there or because they have been there themselves?

Yes my brother + some other guy been there, and __________ been there as you can read, but honestly I don't think you find much information here.
Many people from these country would be carefull on visiting sites like this and most trans people outside don't travel there because of the risk 

as a trans person theres always a risk where we live and where we travel depending on which country you go to, I bet you know that,
I would always be very carefull for these where homosexuality is illigal at any point due to govermental facts that IF you happent to get in trouble during your trip then you got in BIG trouble for breaking the law and you general should try avoiding that you know. its not whenever people in Dubai is accepting or not but black on white about the countrys law and the punishment you could get for breaking a law.

I try to find some forums who knows more about the middle east countrys specially dubai, but there not so many in english and dirrectly mention UAE, but if you got facebook you can try ask the people on "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transexual Rights UAE" and hear if they got more information or any links which could be usefull for you. and if you want to know about other arabic countrys theres groups such as helem, which deal with lgbt in lebeanon (but still lebanon and UAE is not the same, only if you are interesteed.)
Since you are Swedish theres also a group in Denmark called Sabaah, which deal with lgbt issues of people with middle east background, you could writte to then by email or ask on there forum in Swedish or english and see what they can tell.

I hope this will help you.

Quote from: Ephemeral on June 22, 2014, 04:21:44 PM
This is exactly the kind of post I was referring to my in previous post. My girlfriend lives in Dubai and has lived there her entire life. Yes, the country goes by sharia law, yes, the country is primarily Muslim but no, you can't just make a lot of conjecture of how it is like to be LGBT in Dubai without being there yourself simply based off the fact that it's Muslim. A majority of the population in Dubai is actually Indian and therefore Hindu, not Muslim, for example.

Sure, we can't jump to too many conclusions, but for god's sake, it's not like it's a secret that the Middle East is generally extremely anti-LGBT, treats women like trash, and sees homosexuality as a serious crime for which there are real and regularly-enforced punishments.  Start throwing trans into that mix and it's a recipe for some very dangerous experiences.

I've walked around at night on my own in central Dubai and it's stuffed with Indians and South Asians and pretty safe in general - they are chilled out people for the large part.  But they are there for work and the country needs their cheap labor to operate right now, what with its incessant infrastructure development and building projects.  They are tolerated out of necessity, and often treated very poorly by their employers.  And they behave themselves too because they know the consequences of breaking the law.

You, as a trans tourist, are absolutely unnecessary in the UAE and cannot expect to be treated with the same "respect" as even a migrant worker.  You are, in their eyes, breaking various laws by even attempting to enter their country.

But like I mentioned earlier, it's not the general population you need to worry about.  It's the authorities - who are strict Muslims in most cases - who will not take kindly to you.  Start standing out for any reason and you'll attract the wrong kind of attention.  You just need one cop to make your life very unpleasant indeed, and their cops make even the ->-bleeped-<-tiest bigoted power-hungry dumbass cop in the US look like Sheriff Andy Taylor.

So no, it's not safe for you.  If you dig deep enough, you might find someone who will tell you that it's perfectly safe to go there while in transition, and I think that's the answer you're looking for.  Me?  I'm actually never going to set foot in the Middle East while in transition nor afterwards - it's just too much of an unnecessary risk for me to take.  Most of us who have lived in liberal Europe or relatively liberal North America just don't know how good we have it as trans people compared to how bad things can be living under strict Islamic law.

Quote from: Ephemeral on June 22, 2014, 04:21:44 PM

The problem is her dad. They wouldn't be too keen to let her see me before I see them. I am looking into alternatives to convince him that I'm not some internet rapist, pretty much.

Does her dad know you're trans? And is ok with it? Because if not, that alone would be a huge risk. I'm assuming she is Muslim?

Ephemeral, have you met this girl in real life, or is this an internet relationship?

Quote from: __________ on June 23, 2014, 10:36:09 AM

Quote from: FA on June 23, 2014, 09:04:03 AM
Does her dad know you're trans? And is ok with it? Because if not, that alone would be a huge risk. I'm assuming she is Muslim?

I had the same thoughts myself.  While I hate to question anyone's relationships, this whole situation is raising more huge red flags than a Chinese military parade, and it has "world's worst idea" written all over it.

Yeah, I mean to the OP, I'm sure you love her and she loves you. But her parents already sound skeptical of you. And they will be scrutinizing way more than a passersby. You could even be putting her in danger - she may be viewed as lesbian if found out. And even if her parents are okay with it - what about the rest of her family? Sharia law and all that has claimed many female 'honor' victims. Really, you'd have to know the entire family's okay with it - brothers, aunts, uncles, who knows? In a culture where rape victims are killed to preserve 'honor', I doubt a girl dating a trans man is safe.

I don't know. It sounds like you're just looking for people to tell you it's going to be ok. But we've had two people with knowledge and experience of the place telling you it's not as safe as you hoped. People aren't saying what they're saying here to ->-bleeped-<- on the place or discourage you - we're all genuinely concerned.

Does this forum entirely lack a multi-quote function?

QuoteI try to find some forums who knows more about the middle east countrys specially dubai, but there not so many in english and dirrectly mention UAE, but if you got facebook you can try ask the people on "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transexual Rights UAE" and hear if they got more information or any links which could be usefull for you. and if you want to know about other arabic countrys theres groups such as helem, which deal with lgbt in lebeanon (but still lebanon and UAE is not the same, only if you are interesteed.)
Since you are Swedish theres also a group in Denmark called Sabaah, which deal with lgbt issues of people with middle east background, you could writte to then by email or ask on there forum in Swedish or english and see what they can tell.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

QuoteSure, we can't jump to too many conclusions, but for god's sake, it's not like it's a secret that the Middle East is generally extremely anti-LGBT, treats women like trash, and sees homosexuality as a serious crime for which there are real and regularly-enforced punishments.  Start throwing trans into that mix and it's a recipe for some very dangerous experiences.

I've walked around at night on my own in central Dubai and it's stuffed with Indians and South Asians and pretty safe in general - they are chilled out people for the large part.  But they are there for work and the country needs their cheap labor to operate right now, what with its incessant infrastructure development and building projects.  They are tolerated out of necessity, and often treated very poorly by their employers.  And they behave themselves too because they know the consequences of breaking the law.

You, as a trans tourist, are absolutely unnecessary in the UAE and cannot expect to be treated with the same "respect" as even a migrant worker.  You are, in their eyes, breaking various laws by even attempting to enter their country.

But like I mentioned earlier, it's not the general population you need to worry about.  It's the authorities - who are strict Muslims in most cases - who will not take kindly to you.  Start standing out for any reason and you'll attract the wrong kind of attention.  You just need one cop to make your life very unpleasant indeed, and their cops make even the ->-bleeped-<-tiest bigoted power-hungry dumbass cop in the US look like Sheriff Andy Taylor.

So no, it's not safe for you.  If you dig deep enough, you might find someone who will tell you that it's perfectly safe to go there while in transition, and I think that's the answer you're looking for.  Me?  I'm actually never going to set foot in the Middle East while in transition nor afterwards - it's just too much of an unnecessary risk for me to take.  Most of us who have lived in liberal Europe or relatively liberal North America just don't know how good we have it as trans people compared to how bad things can be living under strict Islamic law.

I understand this perfectly well, hence I am asking. I am looking for ANY possibility at all, which is removed from conjecture, that maybe it may or may not work out. I didn't initially plan to go there anyway but we were discussing meeting up and the problem of her dad is that, a problem, and I suggested video chat/phone but the most convincing would of course be to show up in person.

QuoteDoes her dad know you're trans? And is ok with it? Because if not, that alone would be a huge risk. I'm assuming she is Muslim?

Nope, they are Hindu. He doesn't know she has a boyfriend.

QuoteEphemeral, have you met this girl in real life, or is this an internet relationship?

Nope, not met physically. This is what we are planning around.

QuoteYeah, I mean to the OP, I'm sure you love her and she loves you. But her parents already sound skeptical of you. And they will be scrutinizing way more than a passersby. You could even be putting her in danger - she may be viewed as lesbian if found out. And even if her parents are okay with it - what about the rest of her family? Sharia law and all that has claimed many female 'honor' victims. Really, you'd have to know the entire family's okay with it - brothers, aunts, uncles, who knows? In a culture where rape victims are killed to preserve 'honor', I doubt a girl dating a trans man is safe.

I don't know. It sounds like you're just looking for people to tell you it's going to be ok. But we've had two people with knowledge and experience of the place telling you it's not as safe as you hoped. People aren't saying what they're saying here to ->-bleeped-<- on the place or discourage you - we're all genuinely concerned.

She is Hindu and they do not know that we are together. The fact that we are is a big obstacle in itself because they have a lot of ideal plans of how she should live her life (not based on Islam though, since they are Hindu). She is ready to give up her family ties if necessary because she would likely be ostracized as it is anyway, because she isn't living up to hardworking Asian student potential. I know it's not safe. My reaction previously was in response to that my girlfriend was skimming this thread and she said that some things people have expressed here just isn't true. I therefore thought it'd be better to just be clear on what kind of information I am looking for which is to say, I realize perhaps I came across more harshly than intended before, but I need GOOD information. Essentially if someone had been there as trans or knows someone who is trans and has been there, I will value that much more highly than "they are Muslim so it's not safe". I also understand that cispeople's experiences differ from that of a transperson. I am very concerned about the customs service due to body scanning among other things.

I am willing to do this because I am very committed to the relationship pretty much, though yes, I am concerned about my personal safety. I wouldn't consider this an option if I felt it wasn't an option I needed to explore fully first to see if there's any chance at all because I'll grab it.

Sorry, didn't mean to jump to conclusions that she was Muslim.
So, why is her family so skeptical if you're just friends?

A friend of me have been there without any problems at all. She did not had SRS until now and her passing is okay but not perfect.

She was there a few days for work and she made some scuba diving there.

We are from Germany and the passport states she is female.

Lara

Quote from: FA on June 23, 2014, 12:21:09 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to jump to conclusions that she was Muslim.
So, why is her family so skeptical if you're just friends?

Not just friends but boyfriend. They are skeptical because they think she should graduate university before she even has time for a relationship pretty much. Also, her dad is according to her quite paranoid and as I said, would think of me as a potential rapist whose sole interest is to abduct his daughter.

Quote from: Lara1969 on June 23, 2014, 12:23:59 PM
A friend of me have been there without any problems at all. She did not had SRS until now and her passing is okay but not perfect.

She was there a few days for work and she made some scuba diving there.

We are from Germany and the passport states she is female.

Lara

Thanks. What would you say were the factors there? If we were seen as a ciscouple I am not particularly worried in that respect.

Let's take this in another direction for a moment.  This is a long distance relationship between Sweden and Dubai.  Just on a practical level, that's a crazy distance to travel for romance with someone you've never met.  Long distance relationships are hard enough to maintain - let alone develop! - when it's a preexisting close relationship like a marriage that is split apart geographically through job relocation and things like that.  Without significant amounts of cash and free time, she's someone you might see once or twice each year.  Do you think it's wise to invest so much time and energy in this particular relationship, given the fact that it's going to be one of the hardest long distance relationships (in terms of distance and culture) that I've ever heard of?  I really can't imagine a more difficult set of circumstances if I tried, and my advice would be to spend the time and money finding someone at least within the same country and culture, at least to start with.  Maybe I'm missing something huge here, and maybe it's out of place to question love, but should the main issue be examining whether this is a sensible relationship to get into in the first place, instead of leaping way ahead and discussing whether it's safe to meet the girl's father?

But back to the main thread.  Ephemeral, I suggest that you have the girl explain everything about you to her father.  Then see what the response is.  If he's cool knowing everything before you get on the plane, then go for it.  Until all the cards are on the table, I'd strongly recommend not even booking a flight.  There are very easy ways to take this step by step.  Skype?  Call the father?  Send a letter?

I know it sounds harsh, but I'm just trying to keep at least one foot in reality. It's far more dangerous a situation than I think you realize.

Quote from: __________ on June 23, 2014, 02:14:28 PM
Let's take this in another direction for a moment.  This is a long distance relationship between Sweden and Dubai.  Just on a practical level, that's a crazy distance to travel for romance with someone you've never met.  Long distance relationships are hard enough to maintain - let alone develop! - when it's a preexisting close relationship like a marriage that is split apart geographically through job relocation and things like that.  Without significant amounts of cash and free time, she's someone you might see once or twice each year.  Do you think it's wise to invest so much time and energy in this particular relationship, given the fact that it's going to be one of the hardest long distance relationships (in terms of distance and culture) that I've ever heard of?

Yes. We went over that the day we got officially together, pretty much. She asked me about it and I was very hesitant because I wasn't sure how I felt and I'm well aware of the consequences. Really though, the cultural differences aren't that bad unless you look for say, food and such. We have very similar values etc.

QuoteI really can't imagine a more difficult set of circumstances if I tried, and my advice would be to spend the time and money finding someone at least within the same country and culture, at least to start with.  Maybe I'm missing something huge here, and maybe it's out of place to question love, but should the main issue be examining whether this is a sensible relationship to get into in the first place, instead of leaping way ahead and discussing whether it's safe to meet the girl's father?

I tried doing the former for the past 8 years. I understand your concerns but this was a choice I made and I was well aware of how much it would suck but I've heard of similar stories from others and it sucks being in LDR but again, it was a choice I made. I knew it would be really tough. The plan is that she is going to move to another country next year and I'll move to her once I'm done with all the stuff concerning my transition in Sweden. LDR or not, this relationship does me more good  than bad so I don't regret it.

QuoteBut back to the main thread.  Ephemeral, I suggest that you have the girl explain everything about you to her father.  Then see what the response is.  If he's cool knowing everything before you get on the plane, then go for it.  Until all the cards are on the table, I'd strongly recommend not even booking a flight.  There are very easy ways to take this step by step.  Skype?  Call the father?  Send a letter?

I know it sounds harsh, but I'm just trying to keep at least one foot in reality. It's far more dangerous a situation than I think you realize.

Told her those things. I'm actually a very realistic person but she's very hesitant to tell him. I have no problem talking to him really, and at some point she will have to tell him, but she's scared he'll cut me away from her completely, I think. I can discuss it with her again. It's not really a problem on my end in such a sense. I suggested to talk to him many months ago because I think the key to go here is to at least at some level try to be his friend.