Hello, everyone!

My name is Jacey and I originally identified as FtM but now identify as non-binary. I am not a huge fan of body hair & facial hair but am not willing to go off T due to the mental stability it gives me. I have been on T for approx. 4 years. I occasionally have to shave every 3-4 days.

Would receiving electrolysis while still being on T be pointless since new hairs would be growing in? Or would it be effective?

Thank you!

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Many cis men have laser to reduce facial hair and it can be quite effective. So it should work for you in at least reducing hair. Consult a reputable laser place and get an opinion from the professionals

Hi Jacey

While I am MTA, before I started HRT laser permanently removed a lot of the hair on my back.  Given that electro is permanent I would expect to it to be effective whether you are on T or not.  However T will stimulate hair follicles so complete hair removal may not be as fast you would like.

Aisla

We should remember that laser hair removal cannot be fully guaranteed to remove hair permanently, or remove the hair entirely.

I had six laser sessions and it maybe cleared only a third of the hair on my face. This was due to the fact that I have pale skin and blonde hairs. I finished the rest with electrolysis.

The thing you need to keep in mind OP is that the way electrolysis works is by "chasing" the hair's growth cycles. Treating the hairs that have grown one week, then treating the hairs that hadn't grown in yet the next week. I don't have experience in what you're dealing with but I'd imagine that you'd constantly be chasing hairs that are growing in. I might be more sensitive to pain than most, but even with Emla (numbing cream) it's very uncomfortable. Also you'll have red spots that look like acne.

Quote from: Cindy on June 28, 2014, 03:12:47 AM
Many cis men have laser to reduce facial hair and it can be quite effective. So it should work for you in at least reducing hair. Consult a reputable laser place and get an opinion from the professionals

Thank you for the welcome I will muster up the courage to see a professional. I just hope my parents can understand why - they might assume I'm "regretting" transitioning.

Quote from: Aisla on June 28, 2014, 03:57:19 AM
Given that electro is permanent I would expect to it to be effective whether you are on T or not.  However T will stimulate hair follicles so complete hair removal may not be as fast you would like.

That's what I was concerned about. More electrolysis sessions for me~!

Quote from: teeg on June 28, 2014, 06:27:13 PM
We should remember that laser hair removal cannot be fully guaranteed to remove hair permanently, or remove the hair entirely.

I had six laser sessions and it maybe cleared only a third of the hair on my face. This was due to the fact that I have pale skin and blonde hairs. I finished the rest with electrolysis.

The thing you need to keep in mind OP is that the way electrolysis works is by "chasing" the hair's growth cycles. Treating the hairs that have grown one week, then treating the hairs that hadn't grown in yet the next week. I don't have experience in what you're dealing with but I'd imagine that you'd constantly be chasing hairs that are growing in. I might be more sensitive to pain than most, but even with Emla (numbing cream) it's very uncomfortable. Also you'll have red spots that look like acne.

I'm well aware but I would still like to try regardless. I have high pain tolerance, er... dare I say, I enjoy experiencing different types of pain. I've gotten piercings, tattoos, eyebrows waxed/plucked, used epilators on my face/body, heck, even plucked the hairs out of my neck, chin and upper lip for sheer curiosity. Sure, it stung but seeing the hair (complete with the little nub on the end - the follicle?) on the end of the tweezer brought me feelings of joy.

I don't mind red spots unless they are red spots that turn into scarring. The red acne-like spots are temporary, right? I've used an epilator on my legs and I had a red rash for a few days, then it faded. Is it like that?

Is there anything you can put on your face after a session of electrolysis to encourage healing? Moisturizer perhaps...?             

Thank you for the response everybody  

You need to keep your face as clean as possible after electro to avoid infection. Use alcohol wipes and don't touch your face!

Aisla

Electro will work for existing hairs, but more follicles will mature into thick hairs over time.

I had electro over 10 years ago, no HRT, and I found I needed an annual touch up to take care of 30 or so thick hairs that usually developed.  Slowed down since I went on low dose HRT.  So long as a reasonable level of T is present, hairs will mature...

Quote from: Aisla on June 30, 2014, 06:57:29 AM
You need to keep your face as clean as possible after electro to avoid infection. Use alcohol wipes and don't touch your face!

Thank you Aisla, I'll keep that in mind!

Quote from: luna nyan on June 30, 2014, 07:19:30 AM
Electro will work for existing hairs, but more follicles will mature into thick hairs over time.

I had electro over 10 years ago, no HRT, and I found I needed an annual touch up to take care of 30 or so thick hairs that usually developed.  Slowed down since I went on low dose HRT.  So long as a reasonable level of T is present, hairs will mature...

I'd be completely down for annual touch ups.

On the subject of hormones, I don't think I will be on T for the rest of my life.

My plan is after I get a hysterectomy (leaving ovaries in) that I'll take a two year break off T (under supervision of my endo of course!) in order to see if I can handle the effects of estrogen without relying on mental stability T gives me. I'm hoping that the absence of menstruation, which was one of my biggest triggers for my depression and suicidal thoughts, will make things easier for me. Plus, the thought of stopping T and knowing that little to no new hair follicles will stop maturing as much is exciting! I just worry that if I get top surgery, hysterectomy, then go stop T, that my chest will grow breasts again!   

Quote from: EchelonHunt on June 30, 2014, 08:37:13 AM
On the subject of hormones, I don't think I will be on T for the rest of my life.

My plan is after I get a hysterectomy (leaving ovaries in) that I'll take a two year break off T (under supervision of my endo of course!) in order to see if I can handle the effects of estrogen without relying on mental stability T gives me. I'm hoping that the absence of menstruation, which was one of my biggest triggers for my depression and suicidal thoughts, will make things easier for me. Plus, the thought of stopping T and knowing that little to no new hair follicles will stop maturing as much is exciting! I just worry that if I get top surgery, hysterectomy, then go stop T, that my chest will grow breasts again! 

If you're not going to be on T for the rest of your life to transition into a man, why are you even going to be on it at all? So many people post about estrogen and what not giving them mental stability, making them calm, feel less stressed, yet they don't want to transition which is what hormones do to your body. This is not what hormones are meant for. Hormones are not mood stabilizers, they effect the whole body, and besides mood swings attributed to fluctuating hormones all of this talk about mental stability from hormones in my opinion is a placebo effect. If someone wants "mental stability" try mood stabilizers, etc.

You want to start T which will make you more hairy, yet you don't want to be more hairy? This is like me saying I'd like to take estrogen which will make me grow breasts, but I don't want breasts. How does this make sense?

Breasts are glands. Once they're removed they're gone. Cancer patients undergoing Mastectomies don't regrow their breasts post-op.

Quote from: teeg on June 30, 2014, 02:11:45 PM
If you're not going to be on T for the rest of your life to transition into a man, why are you even going to be on it at all? So many people post about estrogen and what not giving them mental stability, making them calm, feel less stressed, yet they don't want to transition which is what hormones do to your body.

You want to start T which will make you more hairy, yet you don't want to be more hairy? This is like me saying I'd like to take estrogen which will make me grow breasts, but I don't want breasts. How does this make sense?

Teeg

You continue to question why someone uses hrt to address dysphoria in its many forms.  It is a legitimate and effective therapy for binary and non binary transition.  In both cases it effectively shuts down dysphoria.   Continually questioning those of us who benefit from hrt in low dose, long term or short term, who don't seek a binary transition etc is invalidating.

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on June 30, 2014, 04:05:17 PM
Teeg

You continue to question why someone uses hrt to address dysphoria in its many forms.  It is a legitimate and effective therapy for binary and non binary transition.  In both cases it effectively shuts down dysphoria.   Continually questioning those of us who benefit from hrt in low dose, long term or short term, who don't seek a binary transition etc is invalidating.

Aisla

I continue to question why someone uses hormones, that effect the entire body, to elevate emotional issues because I question why people think the hormones are effecting their emotions when it's mostly just energy levels that differ.

Someone saying that testosterone itself calms dysphoria is illogical. This is a placebo effect of people thinking they feel better on testosterone simply because they WANT to be on testosterone. This goes for estrogen as well. My mood, thoughts, level of dysphoria, etc., have never been effected by estrogen. It's made me less aggressive and touchy because that's what testosterone does. If anything testosterone should make these symptoms worse as it causes aggressive behavior. Any endocrinologist that would prescribe testosterone to "calm someone or their dysphoria down" is moronic - it'll do the exact opposite. However, if the patient is so influenced with the idea that it'll make them feel better because they want it to make them feel better, then that's something else entirely.

Just as your opinion is yours my opinion is mine. You've given me negative reputation simply because I had the courage to voice concern that others here do not. Just because I choose not to be a fanciful cheer leader and that my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm invalidating anything - if anyone's invalidating anything, it's you invalidating others' opinions.

Quote from: teeg on June 30, 2014, 02:11:45 PM
If you're not going to be on T for the rest of your life to transition into a man, why are you even going to be on it at all? So many people post about estrogen and what not giving them mental stability, making them calm, feel less stressed, yet they don't want to transition which is what hormones do to your body. This is not what hormones are meant for. Hormones are not mood stabilizers, they effect the whole body, and besides mood swings attributed to fluctuating hormones all of this talk about mental stability from hormones in my opinion is a placebo effect. If someone wants "mental stability" try mood stabilizers, etc.

You want to start T which will make you more hairy, yet you don't want to be more hairy? This is like me saying I'd like to take estrogen which will make me grow breasts, but I don't want breasts. How does this make sense?

Breasts are glands. Once they're removed they're gone. Cancer patients undergoing Mastectomies don't regrow their breasts post-op.

Teeg,

I have tried mood stabilizers and anti-depressants, different combinations over three years of therapy under the supervision of my psychiatrist - these have not helped me, in fact, the worsened my symptoms. Pre-T, I would experience depression and suicidal thoughts a week leading up to my period, with the day before being my lowest of the low. It was a very distinct low feeling that makes me shudder remembering it. At one point, I went on the pill to suppress the periods but as a result, I got massive mood swings and couldn't stop crying about how much I disliked having a female body.

I disagree with your opinion that any calm from testosterone is a placebo effect. After enduring many years of periods and suffering lapses of depression in-between, testosterone has given me stability in terms of stopping my periods - I no longer suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts (which is a GOOD thing!) something that different types of anti-depressants and mood stabilizers couldn't even begin to control! As for T and aggression, no, I'm not the walking reality of the Hulk    

I cannot pick and choose what secondary characteristics of hormones I would like to get. I went into obtaining hormones believing I would enjoy having all of the characteristics of being male. At 18, I did not know anything about non-binary individuals, the term did not exist back then. When I was soul-searching and realized I disliked my female body, the logical conclusion was, "Why not try being male?" I did and it changed my life. I knew a flat chest and having no periods would help curb the physical and emotional dyshoria I experienced.

Over the 4 years on hormones, I have realized I don't identify as male at all, but in fact non-binary. I desire an androgynous appearance - a flat chest, little to no facial/body hair and a mix of feminine and masculine features - which has been my self-image my entire life. I struggled with expressing my femininity as a female because I would've been perceived as female but thankfully, T has helped me come to accept my feminine side and I've been much happier since.

There are many cismen, transmen, masculine-identified individuals who do not enjoy facial hair/body hair and there are many of them who do - this is okay!

Thank you for clarifying about the breasts.

Quote from: teeg on June 30, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
I continue to question why someone uses hormones, that effect the entire body, to elevate emotional issues because I question why people think the hormones are effecting their emotions when it's mostly just energy levels that differ.

Someone saying that testosterone itself calms dysphoria is illogical. This is a placebo effect of people thinking they feel better on testosterone simply because they WANT to be on testosterone. This goes for estrogen as well. My mood, thoughts, level of dysphoria, etc., have never been effected by estrogen. It's made me less aggressive and touchy because that's what testosterone does. If anything testosterone should make these symptoms worse as it causes aggressive behavior. Any endocrinologist that would prescribe testosterone to "calm someone or their dysphoria down" is moronic - it'll do the exact opposite. However, if the patient is so influenced with the idea that it'll make them feel better because they want it to make them feel better, then that's something else entirely.

Just as your opinion is yours my opinion is mine. You've given me negative reputation simply because I had the courage to voice concern that others here do not. Just because I choose not to be a fanciful cheer leader and that my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm invalidating anything - if anyone's invalidating anything, it's you invalidating others' opinions.

You are more than enititled to your position. But when you put it in a way that is so completely dismissive and hedging towards offensive, it doesn't do your position any good.

And here's a little thing.. Just because you never experienced any neurological changes from estrogen, doesn't mean others don't. And no, it can't enitrely be explained away by the Placebo Effect.

Quote from: teeg on June 30, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
I continue to question why someone uses hormones, that effect the entire body, to elevate emotional issues because I question why people think the hormones are effecting their emotions when it's mostly just energy levels that differ.

Someone saying that testosterone itself calms dysphoria is illogical. This is a placebo effect of people thinking they feel better on testosterone simply because they WANT to be on testosterone. This goes for estrogen as well. My mood, thoughts, level of dysphoria, etc., have never been effected by estrogen. It's made me less aggressive and touchy because that's what testosterone does. If anything testosterone should make these symptoms worse as it causes aggressive behavior. Any endocrinologist that would prescribe testosterone to "calm someone or their dysphoria down" is moronic - it'll do the exact opposite. However, if the patient is so influenced with the idea that it'll make them feel better because they want it to make them feel better, then that's something else entirely.

Just as your opinion is yours my opinion is mine. You've given me negative reputation simply because I had the courage to voice concern that others here do not. Just because I choose not to be a fanciful cheer leader and that my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm invalidating anything - if anyone's invalidating anything, it's you invalidating others' opinions.

Teeg

Its disappointing that you discount my experience and that of many others based on your hypothesis that dysphoria can be addressed by means other than by low dose hrt, such as anti depressants etc. Whether you like it or not, low dose hrt has worked for me and for many others.  If you also include the fact that leading endos routinely prescribe low dose hrt for dysphoria I am not sure that continuing to posit an argument with no basis in fact or indeed within your personal experience is particularly constructive or valid.  It may be opinion, but it does not appear to be an informed opinion.

On the other hand if you are a qualified endocrinologist or if you have benefited from other therapies in dealing with gender dysphoria and possess a non-binary identity then I accept that your opinion may have some validity and that your continual questioning of medical practice may have some legitimacy even if it does fly in the face of standard protocols and non binary experience.

It may also be the case that you have developed your views from extensive reading or independent research which gives you the the confidence and right to describe leadings endocrinologists as 'moronic'.  Perhaps you could share your qualifications, authority, 3rd party opinion etc.  In my case while I have four degrees, have spoken with many leading authorities and researched this area extensively I do not profess to be an expert.  However having suffered from intense dysphoria I have found that low dose hrt was the only effective means of dealing with this affliction. Again, in my experience it is not a placebo, as my endo and I  have carefully varied dosages analysed their impact and selected a regimen which obtains the best result.   I do not seek a binary transition nor do I seek significant physical change as my identity is non binary.  Low dose hrt  works for me. 

Teeg, if anti depressants have worked for you in relieving your dysphoria, and you are non binary then that is great news and you should continue your current medication.

It is disappointing that you described me as a 'fanciful cheerleader' when my intent was to share facts, flag potential triggers or invalidation and to share my personal experience.  I am not sure that this merits negative reputation points as I thought that this was the intent of Susans.

Safe travels

Aisla

  Please refrain from personal attacks and get back on topic.

This topic is not about why one would start HRT.

I'm going to leave this here

QuoteHormone therapy may be all the treatment you need to enable you to live with your gender dysphoria. The hormones may improve how you feel and mean that you do not need to start living in your preferred gender or have surgery. 

Teeg- not only is what you say very upsetting to other people (possibly very much so for non-binary folk not looking to transition to strictly male/female), it's not even accurate. Any good endocrinologist will be able to tell you that HRT is half&half physical AND mental treatment. Body and mind, they go hand in hand. That is what makes HRT so effective for treating gender dysphoria. Any good endocrinologist will be able to tell you that ~ heard it from mine, too!

And yes let us please keep this on topic from here on out. Thanks everyone!

Quote from: EchelonHunt on June 30, 2014, 11:39:57 PM
I have tried mood stabilizers and anti-depressants, different combinations over three years of therapy under the supervision of my psychiatrist - these have not helped me, in fact, the worsened my symptoms. Pre-T, I would experience depression and suicidal thoughts a week leading up to my period, with the day before being my lowest of the low. It was a very distinct low feeling that makes me shudder remembering it. At one point, I went on the pill to suppress the periods but as a result, I got massive mood swings and couldn't stop crying about how much I disliked having a female body.

I disagree with your opinion that any calm from testosterone is a placebo effect. After enduring many years of periods and suffering lapses of depression in-between, testosterone has given me stability in terms of stopping my periods - I no longer suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts (which is a GOOD thing!) something that different types of anti-depressants and mood stabilizers couldn't even begin to control!

Do you think that perhaps, what might have helped was stable levels of hormones because before your hormones would rise and drop monthly and even with birth control pills, the same pattern is replicated? I'm just asking...I'm curious to get your opinion on this.