Quote from: sad panda on July 03, 2014, 12:24:53 AM
It sounds like you could be suffering from some lingering shame? What do you think?

Definitely.

Well, I'm sure you've already heard a billion times how normal that is, and I don't mean normal as in trivial, I mean normal as in... it's not your fault. As in, it's out of your control that you feel it right now, but the only way to combat shame is unfortunately to trust in someone enough to act like you don't have that shame. It can happen in little increments, but eventually, that is what has to happen to get comfortable with yourself, and of course, it has to be a choice that you make for yourself because the pain of being closed off is worse than the pain of taking a chance again. All I can offer is that, if this guy is worth your trust--you do have to trust, even as the dominant partner, because you have to feel comfortable with yourself--then it WILL get better. It will get easier, feel more natural, and your comfort zone will expand, even if at first, it probably will suck. It just takes time, but everything doesn't have to be perfect or even right at first anyway.

Idk, hope that makes sense.

It does. I hope he's worth it. My instincts tell me he is, but I haven't been the best judge of character in the past.

I don't know what exactly you are asking, but I've also had to pick apart my sexual and relationship behaviors after trauma. I had to start being okay with myself by giving myself blanket permission to do even unhealthy things (so I didn't agonize in the moments as they happened), and then I decided on one or two things at a time to work on. I realized that it bothered me a lot to be referred to in certain (often well-meaning) ways, and omitting and refusing those words was important for awhile. When that got better and I felt a little saner for it, I went on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. I worked on choosing my partners more carefully, on being able to dictate terms or say no without hard feelings, on recognizing when I was incorrectly projecting bad history stuff on myself or others, and on seeing which things were absolutely nonnegotiable. Eventually I got to the point where I had learned how to stay in control enough not to feel used by anyone, and I didn't have to throw out my entire sex life to make things okay.

Again, I don't know what the question really is, I just know we've had some similar experiences. And I don't know how to act in a romantic relationship, really. I have huge requirements as a parent that weed out almost everyone, and the people who meet those requirements often have complicating issues apart from my not knowing how to act.

Your traumas and the habits they left are certainly not your fault, but they are your problem. I say you should keep doing what you're doing, asking questions and being self-aware and aware of how much this other person means to you. You seem like you're good at figuring out what you need, or at least what you need to not deal with.

Thanks, Felix. That was a lot of help actually.
At first, I was asking for help because I tend to act effeminate to try to get guys to "like" me. (It was a dark time.) I was worried about falling into that pattern again because I didn't know how else to act.
And then I just acted and figured it out myself, but also realized I'm pretty physical. So now I'm dealing with shame because I want to be physical. (Yes, this is coming from the person who claimed to never want to touch anyone ever again.)

I don't know how to fix that, and I recognize that physicality can be the trigger to end all triggers, but I hope you find some way to go with it. Interfacing physically with other humans can be so rewarding.

Forgive me for being mostly absent here and not knowing this already, but is being effeminate completely out of character for you? If you like being a little bit swishy there's nothing wrong with that.

If you need to be all-the-time dominant and follow the gender scripts that go with that, maybe you could consider a shallow sexual relationship? It can help to practice with people you don't have to answer to in the morning, and there are lots of safe(ish) meetups and subcultures in most cities for whatever you want to try. You can make plans to hang out with people to explore sexual roles without having any sex, too. Just be sure to know what you want and stick to any rules you set.

I'm sure you know this, but guys will like you no matter how you act. Humans are incredibly social, every normal or neurotic-seeming preference has a following, and almost anyone you date will likely not be surprised if you have stringent demands. I'm glad you are moving towards being okay with being touched. That seems important.

Quote from: Edge on July 02, 2014, 11:45:45 PM
Yeah. Right now, I'm struggling with that. After I was raped, I got really promiscuous, was used, and ended up hating myself for it except the thing is, I am a pretty physical person. Now I'm trying to be more comfortable with that and forgiving myself for that. When I feel nervous and not comfortable with myself, I act like someone I'm not and don't feel comfortable being, but when I act like myself, I like it, but I worry I'll end up hating myself for it. I hope some of that made sense because I'm not entirely sure it makes sense to me.

Actually that makes a lot of sense to me. When we go through a traumatic experience it can definately change us. Some tend to disassociate themselves, some tend to think WTF and kind of go wild, some tend to create an alter ego that can handle the situation a lot better. Not so much an alter personality or multiple personality type thing but rather just an alter ego and extension but at the same time different than our true normal personality.

When it comes to rape that is probably the worst violation and theft that we will ever face. It is a violation against our bodies and our minds. People handle it differently afterward. Someone breaks into your house and steals everything or breaks into your and steals everything or just steal your whole car. Yeah it is theft, you may feel as if you have been violated and we may realize that the world isn't as safe and secure as we thought. But when it comes the rape they stole something from us that we are supposed to give freely to someone we love. The psychology aspects of it kicks in and anything can spring from it from PTSD, to disassociative behavoir, to anxiety, severe depression and a host of other problems. For me the key was to realize that I wasn't the one to blame and in no way was it my fault. To look past the shame that I felt. To understand that just because one person is that way doesn't mean everyone is. The worst was trying to forgive the person who did it, and I still struggle with that. I hate him but I do forgive him at times. Where I got my poblem is that I was too scared to tell anyone and he ended up doing it to someone else a few years later and I do blame myself for that but that person wasn't a coward and told someone and this person went to where he belonged and now is labeled a sexual predator and everywhere he moves the residents get a head's up.

Sometimes it takes time but it does seem you are going in the right direction and trying to overcome it.

Quote from: Felix on July 03, 2014, 01:24:43 AM
Forgive me for being mostly absent here and not knowing this already, but is being effeminate completely out of character for you? If you like being a little bit swishy there's nothing wrong with that.

I know there's nothing wrong with it, but I hate being swishy.

Quote from: Felix on July 03, 2014, 01:24:43 AMIf you need to be all-the-time dominant and follow the gender scripts that go with that, maybe you could consider a shallow sexual relationship? It can help to practice with people you don't have to answer to in the morning, and there are lots of safe(ish) meetups and subcultures in most cities for whatever you want to try. You can make plans to hang out with people to explore sexual roles without having any sex, too. Just be sure to know what you want and stick to any rules you set.

You misunderstand, but that's ok. I am currently dealing with shame for wanting to get physical with my boyfriend specifically because those kinds of sexual relationships make me hate myself and I don't want to have them. (In case that's confusing to anyone, I just met him last thursday.)

Quote from: Felix on July 03, 2014, 01:24:43 AMI'm sure you know this, but guys will like you no matter how you act. Humans are incredibly social, every normal or neurotic-seeming preference has a following, and almost anyone you date will likely not be surprised if you have stringent demands. I'm glad you are moving towards being okay with being touched. That seems important.

Well, guys used not to like me. They used to let me hang around either because they wanted to get in my pants or one of their friends was getting in my pants. Of course, I was also hanging around with the wrong people. I don't even understand completely how badly those events broke my mind.

Thanks, Jess. I hate that that happened to you too, but it's nice to know that someone understands how f-ed up that shtuff can make someone.

Sorry for broad-brushing there.

I'm generally a huge fan of promiscuity, but with a zillion asterisks. Anything that makes you hate yourself is obviously worth working hard to avoid. For me, I had to decide on actual numbers regarding how many days or weeks or months had to go by before getting intimate with another person. There were some guys I dated without having any sex, and one long-term relationship where nothing overly physical happened until close to a year had gone by. It's hard convincing people to respect those boundaries.

I'm tempted to say that there were probably people who liked you and were not brave enough to say anything, but I don't know that. I know that wanting to get in your pants can overshadow or destroy romantic feelings, as can other social variables, and I believe you that the baser desires of some of the guys around you caused great harm.

But still. I've never met anyone who wasn't looked up to or daydreamed about in wholesome ways by somebody.

well I know this thread has evolved past just the simple hugging and snuggling.  For the hugging I have noticed that most guys who hug do it as equals, one arm over the shoulder and one under.  In a dominate/ submissive relation ship they one tends to hug over the shoulders while the submissive personality hugs under and lower.  Before I came out to one of my best friends we would hug with one arm over and one under, after I told him about who I really am, he starter hugging me over the shoulders in a more protective manner.
I did infact feel smaller and very safe in his arms just from the change of one arm.
The other thing I have noticed with the Dom/sub relationship male/female, and even male/male the more dominate personality will lead their partner with a hand placed in the small of their back just above the butt.  It sounds a little stupid but if you watch people you will see them doing this without their noticing.  Teenagers do it, even the retired couple who live next door do that. 
I tend to think that in the dom/sub relationship you are either bringing the feeling of safety or comfort.  The more dom person is attracted because the sub feels safe when they are around their personality type.  The sub is usually more attractive to the dom personality for the comfort they provide.  Think what you want but thats the way I see it.  Dont get me wrong there is real love in those relationships but most all personalities are attracted to something that they feel they need, even down to the caveman mentality people want to know that their basic needs will be met.

Depending on what kind of relationship and who is what kind of person (platonic) hugs change.

Platonic hug with my girlfriends it's always above the shoulders. Platonic hugs from my friends are mostly the "one arm hug with a pat on the back hugs" with exception from my best friends which is more like with my girlfriends (he's straight FYI).

The first hug with my now boyfriend was also in the clueless area, both him and me. Awkwardness was in the air. We both sorta liked each other before we actually met for the first time. So when we greeted each other with a hug I he went a bit to far and went a bit to less (i went for a small hug and he went a for a big hug). It was just so awkward.

It is true that I'm a bit quiet and not really talkative with people I don't know, but I will stand up and fight if needed. I'm by no means a submissive girl. Also some of the time I am rather masculine and somehow fit with the guys.

The first date went perfect and before we knew it we were kissing. With him I suddenly became this submissive feminine girl with him leading me (This was a part of myself that I have never met before). I had zero experience and as I was this sub feminine with him I just let my body act without thinking and follow him.

If I look at how he acts as a more male dom person (especially hugs) he's more all over me (with respecting boundaries) and that he chooses at which speed we are going at. It's like him saying "you're mine and I want to make you feel good in my way."

As Chloevixen said more dom people attract more sub people and more sub people attract more dom people, even if the difference is small (have seen it loads of time with friends and family). Two very dominating persons usually don't fit (because they both want to lead) and also two very submissive people usually don't fit (they both want the other to lead). However most of the time it's more like 51%/49% kind of situation where one is slightly more dom or sub than the other.

If you really feel more dom than him then lead him and see where you two end up, if you two stay true to yourselves it will end up fine.
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OT
Awesome that you started on T on the same day I started with E

meganB, summed it up perfectly for what I was meaning.
Thank You.

Quote from: Edge on July 03, 2014, 09:30:22 AM
Thanks, Jess. I hate that that happened to you too, but it's nice to know that someone understands how f-ed up that shtuff can make someone.

Bad things happen to good people Hon. There are some really "F"ed up people in the world and I was young and niave and scared but it was his fault and not mine. And other than your temper, now I duck which isn't a problem to me. I like bada** guys but not aimed at me though. All the time anyway. Believe me I understand, took me a long time to get mellowed out. Yeah it will always be there, believe me, but it is the part of overcoming it and not holding it against number 1, yourself and number 2, anyone else other than the butthole that did it.

Personally Edge, I think you are a strong guy. Probably one of the strongest that I have ever had the pleasure of talking to. Hell you're personality is so strong and intimidating sometimes to me. And I know some bada** guys in real life and your personality ever bit rivals theirs and I only know you from wirting in the forums. Believe me it is a good thing. I just think you need to see that for yourself.

Be Edge, think Edge, become Edge like you are here and anyone would love that attitude. Dominance is good in my opinion but seriously don't beat 'em up or actually throw anything that will hurt them if they get you POed.

Wow. Thanks for all the replies, everyone, and thanks for the ego boost, Jess.

Ok this may take awhile, so bear with me and I apologize for a wall of ramblings that may make no sense.
Since starting this thread, I have learned a lot both about myself and where I'm at right now. And it's friggin fantastic!

I figured out that the shame I feel about my own sexuality is due to the sexism and slut shaming I experienced when I was perceived as female. I didn't realize it was happening at the time, but there is a double standard and that combined with the attitude toward sex in my family (which is difficult to describe here) caused me develop feelings of shame. They're now lessening and I'm developing what I consider to be a better attitude about it.
I learned and am accepting that, yeah, I do like sex and there is nothing wrong with that. If I had been a cis guy, no one would have ever judged me as a slut for it and the fact that there is a double standard should make the people who enforce it ashamed, not women. The problem isn't sex. The problem is the attitude towards women and they're worth. Like I was reading an article (trying to figure this out) that claimed women should wait to have sex because otherwise men would have no reason to treat them well. Seriously, wtf? That made me so mad. Sorry I'm rambling, but I hope I got what I'm trying to say across.

I learned that I am, in fact, ready to be in a relationship. I was worried I'd be unhealthy and stuff, but nope. I'm just as healthy as I was when I got into it. Maybe even more healthy.
This time around, I'm being the real me and enjoying the heck out of it. I know exactly what I have to offer and I know how valuable I am. It's a really empowering feeling. Other people also recognize what I have to offer and consider it valuable.
I feel like this is a new chapter (sorry to use a cliche).

I still don't always know what I'm doing, but we're working it out. I've been honest about my insecurities with him and explained how this is the first time I've been a boyfriend and wasn't playing a part I don't want. So far so good I think. We're both kind of testing the waters so to speak and learning about each other,
We're both being open and honest about what we want out of this relationship. I want to be who I am, like who I am, have my path, and be responsible for my happiness and my self and I want him to be who he is, like who he is, have his path, and be responsible for his happiness and his self, but to be able to have these things together. He tells me he wants the same thing.

Sounds like you are in a way better place. See I told ya' you are strong. Sometimes there are just things we have to work through ourselves.

Sorry to bring this up again.
Lately, I am finding that I am returning back to the old pattern of acting like someone I despise instead of who I am. That person is not me. That person is weak, pathetic, and I hate acting like them. I do like myself very much, so that's not the problem. I'm not sure why I do it. I guess fear of other people, but I know better than this. I know to show them I am not someone to mess with. So why don't I? Why do I act like an f-ing weakling instead?
How do I stop acting like a weakling and act like who I really am instead?
(Before someone asks if I'm sure I'm not really the way I act, yes, I am sure and will take the question as an insult. Same with if someone claims I don't like myself. I love myself. I hate that I'm not acting like myself.)

I feel you on this, Edge.

Becoming yourself is hard.

It's a long (even lifelong) process with a lot of steps forward and backward.

If you can, try to avoid giving yourself too much of a hard time about it, and let the moments of being "not-you" pass, knowing that in a later moment you can come back to being the real you.

I'm trying to do the same, and wondering to what extent my pre-existing relationships (I'm in a very pre-transition place) are hindering that (still acting like a girlfriend, daughter, etc. as much as those scripts have forced me to, because not doing so is punished).

I want to say that it takes a lot of courage and strength to confront your own feelings of weakness, or fake-weakness, and try to overcome them. You are clearly doing a lot of identity work, and it IS work, and takes time.

And for what it's worth, in the couple of weeks I've been lurking around this forum, I like yourself too

Thanks, pianoforte.

Quote from: pianoforte on July 26, 2014, 12:31:50 AM
I'm trying to do the same, and wondering to what extent my pre-existing relationships (I'm in a very pre-transition place) are hindering that (still acting like a girlfriend, daughter, etc. as much as those scripts have forced me to, because not doing so is punished).

Yeah I think that might be it. Of course, I was punished anyway, but I've been thinking and I think maybe I developed this because it would have been helpful (in the sense of self protection, not in the sense of self respect) when I was living with my parents since the whole reason my dad and, later, my family targeted me was because I am, by nature, a fighter and they wanted me to be submissive. If that makes sense. Like a defence mechanism I developed too late that doesn't work and that still pops up.

Quote from: Edge on July 25, 2014, 10:30:37 PM
Sorry to bring this up again.
Lately, I am finding that I am returning back to the old pattern of acting like someone I despise instead of who I am. That person is not me. That person is weak, pathetic, and I hate acting like them. I do like myself very much, so that's not the problem. I'm not sure why I do it. I guess fear of other people, but I know better than this. I know to show them I am not someone to mess with. So why don't I? Why do I act like an f-ing weakling instead?
How do I stop acting like a weakling and act like who I really am instead?
(Before someone asks if I'm sure I'm not really the way I act, yes, I am sure and will take the question as an insult. Same with if someone claims I don't like myself. I love myself. I hate that I'm not acting like myself.)

Edge. I am sorry you are struggling through all of this. What I emboldened, there is no doubt in my mind those statements are true. A lot of it may be about self perception, learned behavior, and self confidence. I know some pretty rough guys. They don't take crap from anyone but their wives and girlfriends and then they take all the crap they give them. So 110 plus pound women can bring a 300 plus pound men to their knees. It does not mean they are weaklings in the least. So if that is something that is happening that is making you feel like a weakling, don't worry about it, it's perfecly normal. In relationships we let our guards down and that leads to the inimacy part. Never take abuse though verbal or physical.

Learned behavior and feeling like you are sliding backwards into old patterns? We just have to unlearn that behavior just like we learned it and replace it with self confidence and self esteem. It may take a while and believe me it definatley isn't easy but it can be done. Self hypnosis, therapy, hypnotherapy and just instilling within yourself self confidence by telling yourself over and over and over again.

You know what I think about you so I won't repeat it. And that is just from your writing so being who you are is inside of you. It is just the process that transfers the inside onto the outside in which you have to convince yourself that who you are inside is truly who you are. Does that make sense?

Quote from: Edge on July 26, 2014, 12:49:31 AM
Yeah I think that might be it. Of course, I was punished anyway, but I've been thinking and I think maybe I developed this because it would have been helpful (in the sense of self protection, not in the sense of self respect) when I was living with my parents since the whole reason my dad and, later, my family targeted me was because I am, by nature, a fighter and they wanted me to be submissive. If that makes sense. Like a defence mechanism I developed too late that doesn't work and that still pops up.

That whole paragraph is extremely interesting and screams of learned behavior. That learned behavior will remain in the subconcsious until you replace it and convince yourself on that level of who you truly are. Replace the sence of self protection with the sense of self respect. By nature you are a fighter and your family wanted you to be submissive. You are your own man and no one else can define who you are. One thing that may help is when you go to bed say over and over in your mind that you are all the things you want to be. This may help and is a form of self hypnosis when the brain is experiencing different waves while the subconscious mind is taking over for the rest of the day.

PS. I apologize beforehand if I said anything that offended you or made you angry. I am just trying to help and sharing some things that helped me.

If you do not understand the following, do not bother to reply:

Quote from: Edge on July 25, 2014, 10:30:37 PM
Before someone asks if I'm sure I'm not really the way I act, yes, I am sure and will take the question as an insult. Same with if someone claims I don't like myself. I love myself. I hate that I'm not acting like myself.

That includes people who claim to understand who then prove not to by claiming I'm not convinced of who I am and that I have a self esteem problem. Ffs people, for once can someone actually listen to me without assuming I'm lying?
Yes, it is learned behaviour. Yes, I do in fact have plenty of self esteem and, yes, I am convinced that I am who I really.