This is just my thought on passing and why I don't particularly have that as a goal in my transition.

Well, of course you don't have "passing" as a goal...you already pass, sweetie.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on July 11, 2014, 12:02:39 PM
Well, of course you don't have "passing" as a goal...you already pass, sweetie.

You beat me to it Beth! 

Coming from a YouTuber who is passing I find this video ironic.

I just read the first two chapters of So You Want to be a T-Girl.  Now this was mostly written a decade ago, and the author holds passing and living stealth as not only a worthy goal, but as essentially the only goal worth having.  Then she goes on to describe the difficulties/terror/fear/loss that goes with getting to that place.  A corollary is that most of us pass because we are allowed to pass.  That is mostly true for me.  I really have no way to gauge whether people I meet or engage see me as a woman or whether in the back of their mind they see me as a t-girl. 

I guess mostly I don't care very much, but I'm not dating, I'm not young. 

That I'm pre-op doesn't put me in great risk.  I've read with empathy posts from beautiful young women here, who have legitimate safety concerns regarding being a woman with a penis.  I want mine gone because I'm a girl and girls are not so equipped.  But it isn't because some dude will beat or kill me because I kissed him and he then found out.

Tera, you are a beautiful young woman. No one will ever think otherwise unless you tell them or you get intimate.  I guess if I was you I'd be doing whatever I could to finish the morphological changes and then find a place where I could just live, another girl among many.  Maybe that would bring love and completion to life.  I completely get how hard this is.

The unfairness of it all really troubles me.  I have it all, a good job, great friends, a guy who doesn't care that I have a deformity, and is ok with whatever I choose to do.  I absolutely know that is way outside the bell curve.  I sometimes wonder how long it will take before we can just be women, and not with a qualifier attached.   Maybe never?

I suppose I'm questioning what passing actually is.  Is it enough to not be harassed and discriminated against?  Is it to vanish in stealth?  Or something else?  What is passing for the guys?  Testosterone makes huge changes even for folks who transition later than their twenties.  Is bottom surgery needed to pass?

Sorry, I'm a little glum today.  There isn't any reason for it, except that the enormity of this birth defect, its ramifications on health and life is sometimes just overwhelming.  I hang out in the forums because I have come to cherish and even love a lot of the people here, and because I both learn a lot about myself, and maybe occasionally help someone gain insight.  But is it essentially futile? 

I heard of another one of us who killed herself late yesterday.  I've met her, but didn't really know her.  I find myself weeping for the lost talent, and lost hope.  But I don't really know how to help in the search for hope, when it seems such a sparse commodity.  I have friends coming to stay tonight and I'm glad they will be here, I'll be fine - but I don't know how to make that  the normal condition for so many wonderful, beautiful, and struggling people.

Love to you all,
Julie

Myself, I don't think I'll ever "pass"--meaning people think I'm cis-f. And I'm OK with that. I'm going to get one FFS... Just enough to repair my nose, unhood my eyes, and enough feminization to take the masculine "edges" off. But I still won't pass...but it'll be worth it *to me* when I look in the mirror.

Passing, whether for gender or race, always carries with it the chance, the risk, of being Found Out.

The ones who have zero problem passing are always the ones who make this type of video.  Not much point.
or, oh wait - is this another delusional person who claims she'll never pass?

Quote from: JordanBlue on July 11, 2014, 02:07:33 PM
The ones who have zero problem passing are always the ones who make this type of video.  Not much point.
or, oh wait - is this another delusional person who claims she'll never pass?

Please, let's stay polite. I applaud her for making the video (even while I  ) and for the courage to put it out there.

As someone who passes myself (apparently, unbelievably) I'd be wary of making statements that "passing isn't everything", I have a privilege of sorts that a lot of of my sisters don't. There's an element of truth to it of course, and if we lived I a world where trans people weren't discriminated against, the targets of fear and loathing and misunderstanding, or the victims of violence and murder then sure, passing would hardly matter at all. But we don't live in that world and not passing in many situations - especially for trans women and those who are non binary - can have a variety of consequences ranging from ridicule, to exclusion, to assault. I would think, above and beyond "passing" that living as my preferred gender and acceptance by those in my life are my own goals which I am now achieving, but would I be comfortably able to do that if I didn't already pass? I don't think so.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 11, 2014, 05:53:53 PM
As someone who passes myself (apparently, unbelievably) I'd be wary of making statements that "passing isn't everything", I have a privilege of sorts that a lot of of my sisters don't. There's an element of truth to it of course, and if we lived I a world where trans people weren't discriminated against, the targets of fear and loathing and misunderstanding, or the victims of violence and murder then sure, passing would hardly matter at all. But we don't live in that world and not passing in many situations - especially for trans women and those who are non binary - can have a variety of consequences ranging from ridicule, to exclusion, to assault. I would think, above and beyond "passing" that living as my preferred gender and acceptance by those in my life are my own goals which I am now achieving, but would I be comfortably able to do that if I didn't already pass? I don't think so.

I'm very much in agreement with this. I believe I now pass very well which has both greatly contributed to my personal well-being and contributed to making those close to me feel comfortable with me presenting as a woman. In consquence, I still have a pretty normal and well integrated existence, my only real problem being at work where I was just not able to transition on the job ie. some people who count and who had got used to seeing me as a guy could just not handle the change. 
However, even there, most people are fine with me and it is more than likely that I will still take some positives away from the only really negative experience I have had during this journey. It could also be a cultural thing, but I have never, ever been the victim of any sort of rude comment or agressive behaviour anywhere.
However, I also made no attempt to transition until I had finished FFS which got me from a 99% masculine face  to a 95 - 99% feminine face  depending on the photo(according to Pictriev  )

Quote from: Beth Andrea on July 11, 2014, 02:18:20 PM
Please, let's stay polite. I applaud her for making the video (even while I  ) and for the courage to put it out there.

You applaud a video about 'Passing Isn't Everything' made by some person who passes completely?
That is so PC.  Let's just all agree completely with everything that everyone posts, then there won't be any point in having a discussion about anything.

She isn't asking you to agree with OP, she's asking you to be polite.

It may not be important to everyone to pass, and I thought this earlier on,  but being 6´4 in heels, relatively built but thin I stand out everywhere. Leaving the club with my buddy the other night a car full of dudes yelled to my buddy "hey you know thats a man right?" "Yea def a fkn man". Mind u I looked fab that night but just my size caused it, and when you hear that stuff, it definitely makes passing more important , because you dont want to be hurt or embarrassed like that in public. But i could see how passing could have its own challenges as well...

Jodie Kidd is 6'2" without heels so I don't feel it is your size that's a problem, rather your spelling.  You should have said 'duds' rather than 'dudes'.

Seriously, any tall woman (cis- or trans-) is going to get this kind of nonsense.  One of my sisters (who is only an inch smaller than me), my wife, the wife of a friend who has an unmistakably female figure ALL have to put up with the same nonsense.  The issue is between the ears of the people spouting the nonsense with their limited and limiting understanding of the world.

ANYHOW...passing.  I haven't the faintest idea whether I do or not and haven't thought about it for ages. I can go where I like (without being reckless) and wear what I like without being abused and that is plenty enough for me.

Rosie

I always side eye anyone who pretends that passing isn't everything. To me that's half the point of going through all this trouble. Who wants to spend all this money, go through all the changes, and take all these risks just to be non passable?? Please, You might as well  just cross dress in my opinion if it doesn't matter, no offence to those who do I'm just saying.

I think others have touched on this, there's so much that comes with passing. Most of all is the freedom to live life in peace without having people read you as trans all the time. I can't speak for anyone else but this matters. Being trans is only a part of who I am not all of it. I'd rather people take me as the individual woman I am first and foremost.

Also, there are degrees to passing it's not all or nothing. A lot of us have the potential to do it, some more than others, but we can non the less. I think the issue is that a lot of us see it as this one thing when it differs from person to person.

Putting aside the obvious issues...I have two main problems with this video...

• Passing and being super feminine are two completely different things. Really this is a video about being overtly feminine, not passing. You can aim to pass (and many do) without having to use every trick in the book to look as close to Barbie as possible. This video seems to imply that the two are mutually exclusive (And worse, that trying to be very feminine is actually a bad thing, when it is a completely preferential thing).
• I can't help but think that the video is a bit of a blatant click bait -.-; The creator only seems to post on Susan's when she wants to promote a video she has made, and does not actually get involved in the debate or discussion of her opinions after posting them...that annoys me. If you are going to go out of your way to make and post a video about an opinion on a controversial topic, at least defend and discuss it afterwards -.-;

Just my 2c ^^

Quote from: Cenedra on July 22, 2014, 08:44:53 PM
She isn't asking you to agree with OP, she's asking you to be polite.

I was as polite as I needed to be in this case.
The video is pointless.

Quote from: Danniella on July 23, 2014, 04:18:41 AM
Putting aside the obvious issues...I have two main problems with this video...

• Passing and being super feminine are two completely different things. Really this is a video about being overtly feminine, not passing. You can aim to pass (and many do) without having to use every trick in the book to look as close to Barbie as possible. This video seems to imply that the two are mutually exclusive (And worse, that trying to be very feminine is actually a bad thing, when it is a completely preferential thing).
• I can't help but think that the video is a bit of a blatant click bait -.-; The creator only seems to post on Susan's when she wants to promote a video she has made, and does not actually get involved in the debate or discussion of her opinions after posting them...that annoys me. If you are going to go out of your way to make and post a video about an opinion on a controversial topic, at least defend and discuss it afterwards -.-;

Just my 2c ^^

I have to agree, I haven't seen one reply from the OP yet, so this may very well have a promotional intent. I'm not directly saying it does, only that is seems that way because the OP hasn't replied to any responses.

Allie

Sorry but I think this is bollocks. If I'm going to risk losing friends, getting disowned by family, losing my job, and getting assaulted by strangers, not to mention spending tens of thousands of dollars and weeks and weeks of recovery than by god, passing is going to be my end goal.

The other day I went to see a friend and I asked him point blank if he felt that I was passable as a woman. He looked at me and asked me, "Do I want his honest opinion?" My reply was "Yes." So he told me that I looked somewhat good, but there were certain things on my face that showed to masculine. So I thanked him for his honesty. I then went found ways to improve things with makeup on the Internet. So all hope isn't lost.