So I've been on hormones for 6 months and the main reason I'm on them is because I have dysphoria over my face that it doesn't look feminine enough. I feel like there is no progress in this regard.

I've been vegan for two years, some days eating healthy and others eating junk food. I've recently started eating a nutrition I would consider healthy from what I've seen of at least 80 percent carbohydrates, up to 10 percent protein, and up to 10 percent fat (not raw, half or more calories from fresh whole fruits and vegetables and the rest from starches such as potatos and rice... no oils, no sugar, no salt, no dairy, no milk, no animal products, etc). And just from two weeks eating this way I felt a big difference, especially in the second week. I feel much better and my body is more in shape and fit. I am at a point where I can run every day for 15-25 minutes straight whereas before I kept jumping from big tummy to small tummy and I see my body becoming fitter.

Yesterday, I tried eating a heavy meal full of fat junk food as before and I felt it, I felt it really significantly how much eating that way strains my system! I got so used to tolerating it, that suddenly after two weeks of eating very little fat it felt so heavy and unnatural to eat that way again. Half of what I lost in these two weeks I got back just in that one big meal both in weight and lost shape, I was very tired just from eating instead of refreshed as I felt when eating these two weeks. I just wanted to sleep and rest and found it hard to find the will to run and exercise which I easily had before.

So after learning so much about this nutrition and finding out from experience how much better it makes me feel, I am wondering... what if the hormones don't change my face ever? What if I'm wasting time pumping chemicals into my body when I could be getting even better health results without it and I'm not even going to get any benefit from it?

My blood seems to be pretty diluted and it isn't getting any better. The endo says it's fine, it's what one would expect when one goes through HRT. So I asked her how do I know my blood is healthy then if I can't trust the specified range in the blood test? She said you can't, that's what doctors are for. Well, with all due respect to doctors and western medicine, I don't trust comparing my health to that of most people in western society since most people eat diets that lead to chronic diseases and western medicine often doesn't really recognize what is a healthy lifestyle and promotes stuff like there is not enough protein from plant foods. It's not enough for me to be healthier than them, I want to be as healthy as I can be without giving up my identity.

As of now I'm planning to keep on taking hormones and if 2 years pass and my face looks the same, either go the route of giving up HRT and just living as myself without hormones - i.e. keep my new name, my gender identity, dress in the way I like to express it just without the hormones to maximize my physical health...

...or go the route of FFS and embrace the miracles of western medicine for the parts it's good for, assuming I can get funding for it.

Ideally, I hope the hormones would just eventually do their job and avoid surgery and continue living pretty healthy, but maybe less healthy than I could - with hormones, but having the female featured face I want more than perfect health.

I'm also wondering if even 2 years is the right amount of time to wait. Should I wait 3 years? What if I'm doing major damage that will shorten my life span, or worse - lead to some brain disease when I'm old? I want at the very least for my mind to be intact until the day I die. That's why I'm pursuing this new life style and nutrition. To minimize my risk of getting all the diseases that seem to happen only to people who eat western diets, whereas in places where people still eat mostly starch and fresh fruits and vegetables just die of old age. What if I'm crossing a threshold where I'd be much healthier if I stop now, or in 6 months than if I stop HRT two years from now?

I don't know. Just sharing my thoughts and I know many probably won't agree with my assertions about this being such a healthy nutrition. I've checked out many resources on the internet on which I base these assertions and it feels really good for me when I stick to it and really bad when I don't. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but let's say for a second it is true and I've found the ideal nutrition for me and there is some risk from continuing HRT that it will compromise my health somehow... I'm especially afraid of getting something like dementia at old age...

Just wondering how do I know when it's been enough time to know this is all the hormones will do?

And how do I know if my blood is in optimal shape? What does it mean that the values are consistent with what other trans women have? That all trans women have sick blood or that now my body functions best with different values than it did without hormones? How do I know if what I'm doing is compromising my health and how much?

On the one hand, I want a female face more than anything in the world. On the other hand, if I'm not going to get it anyway, I don't want to end up like people I know with brain disease.

Just what kind of effects are you hoping for/expecting around your face? If it's a rounder look I think you'll be disappointed - every vegan I've ever known (and having been vegan a few times and currently vego myself for over twenty five years, I've known many) has pretty much had a gaunt face - male or female. When I was vegan I looked skeletal and that was despite being well fed on whole foods and not lacking in energy. That's what happens when you don't eat animal fats. I hate to break it to you, but HRT alone won't do the trick of fully rounding out your face on a vegan diet... you will need to aim for the slimmer face of women on vegan diets. The only plump "overweight" vegans I've ever met had usually only just given up being vego or omnivore.

Well, it doesn't have to be plump at all. I just want it to look feminine.

And whether I eat a healthy vegan diet like I am now or a not healthy vegan diet like I did before, I definitely will never be able to feel good with myself eating animals ever again.

If that means I will never get a female looking face, plump or not, then maybe I should stop hormones now?

Again, it doesn't have to be plump. I just want it to look feminine enough to see a face I identify as female in the mirror and that people stop misgendering me.

The most healthy option to take is no HRT... It just depends if you are happy NOT taking them. Results are very varied, and the only way of knowing what it will do for you, is if you take them.
Nobody likes to hear about the negative health implications, but with me, i have never felt better than i am now, and don't know what i would do if i had to give them up...

Being so interested about nutrition and all, you should read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. It has loads of interesting stuff in it that you should enjoy reading, like tidbits about non-westerners, their diets, health, etc. The entire book can even be found online for free, I think.

The way I see it is if ciswomen are as healthy as men and actually tend to live longer than them and have, on average, a lower risk of cardiovascular incidence although this tends to equalize apparently after menopause due to a drop in hormones, some say, then personally, I don't find that we are at an increased health risk if we take the same estrogen that their bodies produce and in the same way they do (i.e. non-orally). I'm not a doctor though and this is just my opinion but thought I would share anyways how I feel about the whole thing, perhaps to reassure you. I think what's most important is probably taking enough estrogen to replace what we've lost in androgen and the lack of any sexual hormone could be more detrimental than anything else. You are also supervised by a doctor closely so anything that comes up, your doctor will tell you and know what to do. I personally wouldn't be so worried.

Progesterone does help with some things and it might help you with getting a more feminine face, who knows? You could ask your doctor about it and see if they would be willing to prescribe it to you. I suggest you ask for bio-identical progesterone as this tends to have less side-effects.

I really wish you luck and that you don't have to resort to surgery. I also did look gaunt for awhile but that was when I had very little hormones in my body. When my estrogen increased and later, progesterone added, things improved a lot! Now, I'm trying to lose a little weight!!! It can be done. It can happen. Don't lose hope just yet.

Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on July 12, 2014, 10:18:47 AM
Well, it doesn't have to be plump at all. I just want it to look feminine.

To be honest, your face does look feminine. If there are things you are unhappy about (and I have no idea what those are) there's a chance HRT won't change that. All the 'mones really do in that department is, apart from softening the skin and facial hair, is slightly change the musculature around the eyes and change how it deposits fat so that the face and lips look a bit rounder. Sadly everything else would need to be changed with a scalpel or whatever it is face cutters use. If you don't have much body fat, and most vegans don't, then the chances of getting a rounder look is probably not high.

I've been vego since 1986, haven't eaten meat since then. Have dipped into being vegan on two occasions, and each time I lost considerable weight, especially in my face. The only change I've made is to eat a bit of dairy (mostly cheese, cruelty and animal rennet free where possible) most days and it made the world if difference to the shape if my face. Obviously I'm not suggesting you do, that's just my experience.

I'd suggest though, that if you stay on the HRT you would see changes over a period of time. You do have a feminine face though, hon, honestly you do.

QuoteYou do have a feminine face though, hon, honestly you do.

First thing, thank you very much. I know you really mean it and I really do appreciate it.

That being said, I have some problems accepting what you say and I don't know what feature exactly I want or need to change about it. But I will explain my problems and maybe that will help.

First thing, is that my face doesn't seem all that feminine when I'm not wearing hair. I'm not going to show how I look without hair in public to demonstrate my point, but since I'm bald, and I can't wear a wig 24/7, and I don't have enough hair for an implant, this does bother me every day.

Second thing, I don't think my face changed all that much since I took hormones.

To demonstrate my point, here is a picture taken two years ago, just as I became vegan and discovered my gender identity:
https://www.facebook.com/ruthless.band/photos/pb.575969969126523.-2207520000.1405203921./743810425675809/?type=3&theater

And here is a picture of me from 3 days ago after six months of hormones and IPL treatment:
https://www.facebook.com/ruthless.band/photos/pb.575969969126523.-2207520000.1405203921./745677242155794/?type=3&theater

Third thing, people all around me keep misgendering me all the time despite wearing a skirt and long hair and walking in a reasonably feminine way, even before I open my mouth.

Maybe it's my height, 1.79 meters, that makes them identify me automatically as a man. I don't know.

I do know that I don't like the shape my body goes into when I let myself get fat. All the fat goes to the belly and I actually get a slightly feminine waist when I lose fat, not when I gain it. And as you'll notice in the picture from two years ago, I was very skinny... Now I weigh a bit less than I did then due to changing from junk food vegan to healthy vegan diet, and I still tend to harbor more fat on my belly due to the hormones. So if before I was skinny at 65-70kg, now I need to be 55-60kg to be that skinny. And I can do that too if I stick to this healthy vegan nutrition and exercise that is low on fat. No problem!

And it's not like the estrogen is making me have fat where I want it, it's not making any waist curves, it's just giving me a big belly... and growing fat on a vegan diet is really no problem, I just need to eat more mock meat and more oil and more nuts and seeds and avocados and I can gain weight easily. Easily! I ate at a buffet two days ago and gained 2 kilograms in one meal and what did I get for it? My tummy became 3 centimeters wider and my butt got 1 cm wider and I looked more like a pear and less like an hourglass. If I wanted to get fat on a vegan diet, there really is no problem doing that. I have a vegan friend who is obese. How does she do it? She eats lots and lots and lots food, and it's all cooked and fried and has tons of fat in it. No problem becoming a fat vegan. Absolutely no problem.

And eating low fat vegan nutrition of fruits and vegetables and starches I lost 3 kilograms in two weeks and my waist became more trim and looked more like an hourglass. So I can lose fat if I want too.

The problem is that the fat doesn't distribute in a way that looks feminine or beautiful. So I don't know if adding even more drugs like progesterone to make me even more prone to storing fat will fix that. I have enough fat for my taste and I have no trouble changing what I eat to control exactly how much fat I have, the problem is where is the fat going?

Yes, it's fair to say your face hasn't changed a lot in two years, but it certainly is softer looking.

I couldn't say why people are misgendering you. Height? I'm 190cm (6'3") and don't seem to have that problem. I also have to wear a wig. Looking at your second pic I'd suggest that your brow is not as flat as it is with many women, but I have known cis women with similar. Your jawline is bit long and angular so that might be something people are picking up on. I've known cis women with strong jaw lines but they tend to be a bit rounder. Both the brow and jaw are skeletal issues and, sorry, there's no way HRT or diet is going to change that.

But you know, your neck and shoulders are very feminine. It may be that you need to find the right clothes to compliment your figure - not all cis women have an hourglass figure, many are pears or apples or watermelons - and HRT won't give you a female shape that isn't in your genetic makeup. I found dressing in certain ways made it look like I had no hips and in other ways gave the impression of having them. Ditto my waist line.