Misato:

Please continue to stay out of a fight between friends. As you can lose both.

Just a couple of cents.
A long time into "before" I had very few hand-picked male friends and lots of male acquaintances - mostly due to shared hobbies. Once You drop out of that particular hobby, as per rule You loose all the people associated with it. I never really tried to develop a close relationship with females, because when we tried and succeeded to build a sort of friend relationship, they always said things which worried me (like, me not being like other guys and feeling safe around me) and at the same time I always had to fight spontaneous urges downthere, which made me feel dirty.
Now, I have made a couple of very close, best friend relationships with women. Yet, I have been able to preserve the closest male friend I have ever had. And I intend to keep matters the way they are and not focus on genders - we are all human beings in the end and if You find a soulmate, then it does not really matter to which camp he or she belongs. Have to admit, that our friendship dynamics has changed dramatically and there are things he will never offer me to do anymore and treats me more delicately, yet annoyingly paternalising at times. Sometimes, we mock each other a bit, but now it is mostly gender based humour. In the end, I believe that there are many versions of frienship, and if people are willing to preserve a valuable relationship, then they can figure out the mode which suits to them, no matter what.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on July 20, 2014, 03:24:27 AM
And I intend to keep matters the way they are and not focus on genders - we are all human beings in the end...

Great point Emily!

And yes, I know what you mean by being a bit confused between wanting a platonic friendship with women put having desires get in the way.

Grace this brought up so many different thoughts.

Transitioning isn't just about the physical and emotional changes we go through but also the societal changes. To be happy women (or for my brothers, happy men) we need a societal base. Many of us struggled with that before transition and have to learn it during.

I reall a part of my second psychiatrist letter to my surgeon for GCS. " Cindy has adapted excellently to her life as a woman". What does that mean and why is it important?

I knew I was female at an early age, I'm becoming a hormonally and surgically assigned at a later part of life. It is important to my medical team to ensure I have not made a mistake, with the associated devastating effects to me. That I do 'normal' woman stuff is an indicator that I am happy and accepted, that men ignore me and women include me in parts of their lives is an indicator of this.

I still enjoy my male friends, but I enjoy them and they enjoy my interactions as a woman interested in certain topics. I enjoy and am accepted by my female friends as a fellow woman, and that is very special.

This is the core for me of being post-transition.

Oh and has nothing to do with sexuality.

Just my thoughts

Quote from: janetcgtv on July 19, 2014, 09:58:48 PM
Misato:

Please continue to stay out of a fight between friends. As you can lose both.

Oh I'm very aware of that! Still, thanks for the reminder.

You know I really hadn't lost any of my male friends so far, but something weird has happened they kinda act strangely protective over me. They still ask me for advice on things I know more than them on so they respect my mind, but there is now a vibe of "you are delicate, if anyone messes with you they have to deal with us".

I can't complain I knew things were going to change as as I keep going I bet they will change even more, so long as I don't lose any more friends male or female I will be pretty happy.

Quote from: Hikari on July 20, 2014, 07:34:25 AM
They still ask me for advice on things I know more than them on so they respect my mind, but there is now a vibe of "you are delicate, if anyone messes with you they have to deal with us".

Oh yes, very much this. Plus, they start asking for advice from "a female perspective", lol. Still, now they will interrupt me while I am talking with no issues and keep doing so until I explode .
And yes, apparently, I am not an adult person who can act adequately anymore - last bit from a phone conversation two days ago.
He: "You are doing WHAT???"
Me: "Well, as I said - talking to You while skating"
He: "Are You wearing a headset? No? Don't You know it is not safe? You might trip and brake something"
Me: "I'm multi-tasking, dammit!"
He: " Ah (confused), ok...".

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 20, 2014, 03:45:15 AM
Great point Emily!

And yes, I know what you mean by being a bit confused between wanting a platonic friendship with women put having desires get in the way.

I was discussing this thread with my wife at lunch today and one of the things that came up was the close friendships I have developed with two other women over the last few months, one of whom my wife already knows and also likes, and the other who she will meet shortly.

The point I raised is that, with a women, it is possible to have a relationship where you can openly talk about your feelings, the affection and even love you feel for her,  without there being any hidden agenda (at least for me.. ) .I have had very close male friendships too but this is a step too far for all but one guy I have known all my life and, in his case, there was a hidden agenda which eventually killed our relationship.

Donna

 

He probably wouldn't have dug it anyway. When I went to a therapist and said I had this huge self hate and that I could not have male friendships.  (I was always on the outside looking in it seemed)  she explained that I communicate like awoman and that guys can't communicate that closely and they are too shallow for real conversation,  I remember on in particular saying "I dont know you that well, why are you telling me this?" lol

Quote from: antonia on July 18, 2014, 11:30:38 PM
A good friend of mine that has been out for 25 years told me something that I did not believe at the time but I've since come to realize that there is some truth to it.

She told me that at some point I would have to make up my mind, that it would be impossible to belong in both worlds, that unfortunately grabbing a pint with the boys and going to lunches with the girls are mutually exclusive activities. She also told me that the worst thing I could do was to not belong in either group. I'm still processing but as I get more accepted into the female culture and groups I see more of what you mentioned, the dynamics when there are no boys are totally different and I don't think that's something we can change.

I guess the bottom line is being a woman means sometimes we need to do things women do even when they are things that we aren't totally comfortable with or male culture would not encourage.

I think Your friend is very reasonable and wise person and her statements are based on experience. The only thing I would disagree is that last option of not really belonging to any of the groups. IMO, that could be very unique experience, based on specific lifestyle, but, of course, it would have a lot of limitations too. Still, might be worth trying...

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on July 20, 2014, 02:43:04 PM
I think Your friend is very reasonable and wise person and her statements are based on experience. The only thing I would disagree is that last option of not really belonging to any of the groups. IMO, that could be very unique experience, based on specific lifestyle, but, of course, it would have a lot of limitations too. Still, might be worth trying...

Binary folks are forever trying to demystify the non-binary mystiques of those free spirits, myself included, with some oversimplified dismissive comment because they find us somehow threatening. If the lady has been out for 25 years, of course she has a huge investment in herself as a woman and it's no wonder that she would make that statement. One must closely consider the base motives behind such comments, they are not always couched in wisdom but rather in willful disregard for the validity of non-binary types living in her midst. I wouldn't hold it against her, but it's always good to consider the source and understand the motives that drive it.

The lady that told me this has been married for 20 years and enjoys an "upper class" lifestyle, I think she would be horrified by the prospect of living in the "grey zone" but there is still a point there.

General society isn't yet ready to fully accept non binary people and living "in between" can be a very lonely existence at times, I admire girls that continue to be active members of the community after transitioning but at the same time I now realize that for me to be fully accepted into female circles I will have to leave some things behind.

I wish the world was a different place but realistically I think we have to make some hard choices, I'll never hide my past or deny it but at the same time I'm not going to bring it up in a conversation. On the other hand I've met girls that have transitioned and are vocal activists, unfortunately some of them seem to fall into a place where all they can talk about is trans issues and I don't think that's a healthy place either.

Quote from: Shantel on July 20, 2014, 07:30:39 PM
Binary folks are forever trying to demystify the non-binary mystiques of those free spirits, myself included, with some oversimplified dismissive comment because they find us somehow threatening. If the lady has been out for 25 years, of course she has a huge investment in herself as a woman and it's no wonder that she would make that statement. One must closely consider the base motives behind such comments, they are not always couched in wisdom but rather in willful disregard for the validity of non-binary types living in her midst. I wouldn't hold it against her, but it's always good to consider the source and understand the motives that drive it.

Quote from: antonia on July 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
The lady that told me this has been married for 20 years and enjoys an "upper class" lifestyle, I think she would be horrified by the prospect of living in the "grey zone" but there is still a point there.

If the lady is transgendered then she extremely fortunate because her circumstances are rare for any trans woman. 99% who think they will be able to live totally stealth like any cis women are unfortunately just a bit delusional, there are always cues that cis women especially pick up on regarding a trans woman living stealth, plus it's not as if their former life is ever really hidden from inquisitive types, it's not possible.

Quote from: antonia on July 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
General society isn't yet ready to fully accept non binary people and living "in between" can be a very lonely existence at times,

My observation after 20 years on HRT, an orchiectomy and living androgynously and connected to some of the most stunningly attractive and convincing MtF members of the transgender community I can attest to the fact that general society isn't for the most part ready or even willing to fully accept any of us. Some may say otherwise to your face but in their hearts they know they are lying through their teeth to be nice and when they do find out it isn't pleasant.

Quote from: antonia on July 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM
I admire girls that continue to be active members of the community after transitioning but at the same time I now realize that for me to be fully accepted into female circles I will have to leave some things behind.
I wish the world was a different place but realistically I think we have to make some hard choices, I'll never hide my past or deny it but at the same time I'm not going to bring it up in a conversation. On the other hand I've met girls that have transitioned and are vocal activists, unfortunately some of them seem to fall into a place where all they can talk about is trans issues and I don't think that's a healthy place either.

I don't wish to dissuade anyone from their chosen course in how they wish to deal with their own lives as transgendered people, all I can say is good luck! I do agree with you on the trans activists, bless them for their efforts, but I think living one's life quietly is the better way to go, and that's why Susan's has so many old timers here as it gives us all a safe place to discuss things that we wouldn't in the company of everyday cis society.

I've been pleasantly surprised that I can be just as at home with trans and cis women. Most of my real life social trans contact has come via Susan's whereas the cis is just a continuation.

Surprisingly to me anyways I haven't had that much of a problem living among, and socializing with cis women many of whom don't know my history. I don't know if it's how I present myself or my 'devil may care' attitude but especially here more lately I'm treated just like one of the girls. Oh I've no doubt I give off signs as we all do, and some of who I associate with know my full story. It hasn't always been this way for me and I attribute a lot of my acceptance to hrt softening my face up a bit. Or maybe it's that I wear my hair down more partially hiding my scars most of the time unless I'm working.

I'm not trying to live stealth or anything. I'm very proud of who I've become and what I had to overcome to get to where I am now. Nor do I plan to leave this community after my SRS (sorry, y'all have to put up with me, lol!) but I seem so far anyway to be accepted by both cis women, and even the cis men who live here as just the woman who lives alone down the street.

Edit: I am currently looking to meet more Transwomen here in West Central Florida, to maybe if it works out form a group. Currently there's no support for us in less than 2 hours in any direction. So if you live in West Central Florida and are interested feel free to pm me.

Allie

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 21, 2014, 07:13:36 PM
I've been pleasantly surprised that I can be just as at home with trans and cis women. Most of my real life social trans contact has come via Susan's whereas the cis is just a continuation.

Well I am enjoying that myself, but the point is that it's not important to self identify and any particular gender to be well received, and you they know we're trans and wouldn't embarrass us or themselves by any derogatory remarks in front of us, but they do say things privately behind our backs.

When I transitioned (1974) I moved directly into stealth and 'a woman's life'. I had very few male friends, almost none outside of work, and moving in women's circles was a great help in my growing up as a person.

I learned early on that there are times when women exclude the company of men and times when men don't really want women around. There is a far different dynamic in a mixed group from that of a same-sex group and it is good to be sensitive to the desires of the group. You can usually pick up on the sense of when the opposite sex are not desired and, if not, it is good to ask the other women.

You know, I had a wonderful moment when it was clear to me I was now socially allocated to the girls chatting inside part of the party whilst the guys sat around outside.  Heaven.  I don't think I could put up with another minute of nodding through braggy discussions about bikes, surfing and sport.  I was finally free!

As a young kid I much preferred hanging around my aunts and the women than my uncles and the guys. Pretty much I'd always end up in the kitchen helping out than blobbed out in the lounge room or the back yard.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 28, 2014, 04:42:35 AM
As a young kid I much preferred hanging around my aunts and the women than my uncles and the guys. Pretty much I'd always end up in the kitchen helping out than blobbed out in the lounge room or the back yard.

Hahah!
Well, all the men in my early childhood were all donkey rear ends...  I never wanted to be like them, and I'd like to think I avoided that.

The funny thing was, I wanted to help in the kitchen, but got kicked out - it wasn't manly or something (never mind the number great chefs who are men...). Gender stereotype imprinting anyone?

These days, in mixed gender company I get dragged off with the guys and I play my part well...